Are pool schools worth the money?

That's exactly correct. So one thing we CAN KNOW then (amongst a subject where it's difficult to really know ANYTHING with certainty), is that it's possible to learn to play very well without receiving instruction. I think it's VERY IMPORTANT for people to at least THINK ABOUT that fact for awhile.

Of course, the easy answer that people give themselves is "well, he has natural talent." But is that really true in pool? Personally, I'm not so sure. Have you never played a shot, or even an entire rack, as well as a pro? Center pocket and excellent position?

I'd be willing to bet you never played even a bar of music as well as Jascha Heifetz, and in that case I would be willing to ascribe the difference to "natural talent." Pool? Not so much.

As far as music goes.....no . Have I ever played a rack like a pro.....?
Just about every time I play. People on here know me and know that
I can play. I can beat ANYBODY in a given set. That does not mean I
do not lose.
 
As far as music goes.....no . Have I ever played a rack like a pro.....?
Just about every time I play. People on here know me and know that
I can play. I can beat ANYBODY in a given set. That does not mean I
do not lose.

My point is that I don't like it when people see great players and say (or think) "well, he has natural talent. That's why he's so good."

One of the things I have always LOVED about pool is that, generally, the abilities it requires seem to be in the possession of MOST, or at least MANY people. It requires basic hand-eye coordination that most healthy people possess.

AND it requires no ultra-expert instruction. Great musicians, for example, have almost always received instructions from other great musicians. They actually form and table "ancestries." Great musicians will claim being a student of so and so, who was a student of so and so, etc. Extremely valuable tricks and insights, collected and honed by the most exquisitely talented people, and then handed down are practically REQUIRED to play at a top concert level of performance.

But that's NOT TRUE of pool. Pool is a game of TRAINING (and not talent, and not instruction). If you are DETERMINED and CAPABLE and are willing to focus on TRAINING yourself you can, in theory, get down on the table and put in the effort to be pretty damn good. That's the thing I like about pool more than anything: the one who plays is YOU. If you made a great shot it's 100% your achievement.

I really do dislike the idea of people feeling they can get it all by somebody "instructing them." I don't really think it's true (it's PRACTICE that makes you as good as you are), and I think it misses the spirit of the game--as a test of WILLS, almost, and not because the winner took "some lesson."


And a premptory point here: People will point out to me this player and that, and say "You don't think he has TALENT?!?!"

Here's what I think: The filter that got the vast majority of high-level players playing in the game was not TALENT, it was simply that they had enough FASCINATION with the game to play just about every minute of every day. Just think of the TINY PERCENTAGE of people willing JUST TO DO THAT. There could be LOTS of people walking the streets that have TEN TIMES the hand-eye coordination, etc., that Efren Reyes...but how many of them were raised sleeping on a pool table, and spending their entire day in a pool hall for their entire childhoods?

Pool is 95% a game of training and dedication to personal mastery.
 
My point is that I don't like it when people see great players and say (or think) "well, he has natural talent. That's why he's so good."

One of the things I have always LOVED about pool is that, generally, the abilities it requires seem to be in the possession of MOST, or at least MANY people. It requires basic hand-eye coordination that most healthy people possess.

AND it requires no ultra-expert instruction. Great musicians, for example, have almost always received instructions from other great musicians. They actually form and table "ancestries." Great musicians will claim being a student of so and so, who was a student of so and so, etc. Extremely valuable tricks and insights, collected and honed by the most exquisitely talented people, and then handed down are practically REQUIRED to play at a top concert level of performance.

But that's NOT TRUE of pool. Pool is a game of TRAINING (and not talent, and not instruction). If you are DETERMINED and CAPABLE and are willing to focus on TRAINING yourself you can, in theory, get down on the table and put in the effort to be pretty damn good. That's the thing I like about pool more than anything: the one who plays is YOU. If you made a great shot it's 100% your achievement.

I really do dislike the idea of people feeling they can get it all by somebody "instructing them." I don't really think it's true (it's PRACTICE that makes you as good as you are), and I think it misses the spirit of the game--as a test of WILLS, almost, and not because the winner took "some lesson."


And a premptory point here: People will point out to me this player and that, and say "You don't think he has TALENT?!?!"

Here's what I think: The filter that got the vast majority of high-level players playing in the game was not TALENT, it was simply that they had enough FASCINATION with the game to play just about every minute of every day. Just think of the TINY PERCENTAGE of people willing JUST TO DO THAT. There could be LOTS of people walking the streets that have TEN TIMES the hand-eye coordination, etc., that Efren Reyes...but how many of them were raised sleeping on a pool table, and spending their entire day in a pool hall for their entire childhoods?

Pool is 95% a game of training and dedication to personal mastery.

I dont think it is necessity , but I can see where it could speed up the
process.
 
Edit: Sorry I didn't read all the garbage between your post and mine. Oh well maybe mine is garbage too. I don't think so. IMO of course.

I'm almost 57 and still taking lessons.

You got the cash then go. It'll be the time of your life. Just think about it. A day or several days learning from professional instructors. If you're going to one of the schools that come to my mind those instructors are teaching the pro players.

Is it too late for the pro players to learn??

If you want your game to take a big jump then go. But when you get back home you gotta do what they say for some time. Don't throw it out cause you see a drop off. Stick with it and in a week or 2 or 6 you'll get it.
 
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I was under the impression that Stevie Moore was already a pro when he met Stan. Am I wrong?

As for Allison Fisher (or other women), I agree: women like to seek out instruction--and it's often to their benefit. I also think the rise of Asian players is due to early instruction. Instructions to RAW BEGINNERS is unquestionably useful. But that sort of instruction can be simple, easy, and cheap.

Still:

1) A few exceptions doesn't make the argument. I'll still stand by my original observation that most strong players did NOT arrive there via instruction.

2) One STILL must ask the question: How would those same people play if they HADN'T received the instruction? THAT is the only way to know if the INSTRUCTION was an important component....and we already DO KNOW, beyond any doubt whatsoever, that many people have come to play extremely well without instruction.

You require others to produce evidence but you simply stand by your argument when presented with facts. Then you discount the facts.

I would suggest that using your own criterion your comments do not merit consideration until you provide the actual numbers for or against.
 
....and I'm saying that there's not much of a clear way to definitively and objectively determine whether the instruction someone wishes to offer is worthy or worthless.

My uncertified instruction has been worthless and useless to many players since 1987. All the money I have swindled has been transferred to a Swiss bank account under an assumed name. Someday Randy, Scott, Stan and I will retire to Tahiti and laugh at all of you.
 
My uncertified instruction has been worthless and useless to many players since 1987. All the money I have swindled has been transferred to a Swiss bank account under an assumed name. Someday Randy, Scott, Stan and I will retire to Tahiti and laugh at all of you.

LMAO. Have a good holiday Blackjack. Johnnyt
 
David...Randy and Stan are currently busy, but I'm ready to leave TODAY! :D In fact Patti & I are packing to leave tonight for S. FL (where it's warm & sunny!) for a couple of weeks. Tahiti sounds nice!

On topic, I can't believe this thread has generated this many pages over a nitwit that just doesn't understand 1) the value of instruction to the masses; and 2) how to evaluate an instructor beforehand, so you feel like you're going to get what you're looking for. The value is in the mind of the purchaser. We all offer money-back guarantees if someone is unhappy or unsatisfied with the instruction they got.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

My uncertified instruction has been worthless and useless to many players since 1987. All the money I have swindled has been transferred to a Swiss bank account under an assumed name. Someday Randy, Scott, Stan and I will retire to Tahiti and laugh at all of you.
 
My uncertified instruction has been worthless and useless to many players since 1987. All the money I have swindled has been transferred to a Swiss bank account under an assumed name. Someday Randy, Scott, Stan and I will retire to Tahiti and laugh at all of you.

Let's go now, why wait.....:-)
randyg
 
Yes, and no. If that was soley true, you would see a lot more pros.

The number of pros is a function of the amount of money that's in the game, the number of pool halls available in towns, and people's general impression of pool. If a pro could win 20 million bucks by winning a tournament, and every mamma wanted her sons and daughters to be great pool players there'd be THOUSANDS of people who could murder the current crop of pros we have now.
 
If you (or Stevie himself) think you know the answers to those questions it's only because you confuse fact with opinion, and are inexperienced in discerning between the two. That's the point I've been trying to make, and the one you apparently can't even begin to understand.

And you, sir, have provided us with your OPINIONS, without having the facts to back it up.

I'm outta here.

Steve
 
David...Randy and Stan are currently busy, but I'm ready to leave TODAY! :D In fact Patti & I are packing to leave tonight for S. FL (where it's warm & sunny!) for a couple of weeks. Tahiti sounds nice!

On topic, I can't believe this thread has generated this many pages over a nitwit that just doesn't understand 1) the value of instruction to the masses; and 2) how to evaluate an instructor beforehand, so you feel like you're going to get what you're looking for. The value is in the mind of the purchaser. We all offer money-back guarantees if someone is unhappy or unsatisfied with the instruction they got.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I wonder if you really meant to say that. Yes, I agree: most of the value IS in the mind of the purchaser--i.e., there's actually minimal OBJECTIVE value. Most of the "value" is subjective, e.g., the student claims to be "satisfied."
 
On topic, I can't believe this thread has generated this many pages over a nitwit

On the bright side, anyone who is interested in lessons will get a whole lot of very positive information in this thread!

I just hope Mr. Wilson doesn't delete it :)

Brian
 
Sorry I have not read the entire post,but I was attracted to the header"are they worth it".
I have taken lessons from several people including some very well known pros. I do not think I have ever taken a truly bad lesson. I have always gotten something from these people.
I have attended two different pool schools. The first was conducted by Randlyg, Scott Lee, and assisted by Joe Tucker. I thought then and still feel today that they did a great job. I certainly feel that was worth every penny I invested with these outstanding teachers. I have been a teacher for 32 years, and my professional opinion in that these guys flat out know how to teach. They were well organized, have a great presentation, and have a love for what they do.
Recently I attended another pool school. This instructor did a very nice job. He had lots of information, and he did a good job teaching.
I will say that this second instructor, although very capable, did no where near the job that Randy and Scott do.
The bottom line. I cannot image anyone walking away from a Randyg Scott lee lesson and feel cheated. If you want to improve your game give these guys a call.
 
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