From Willie Joseph Mosconi himself:

randyg said:
For sure things change over time. We have better information right now to draw upon.
One thing that didn't change with time is:
Whatever Willie did, he did it better than anyone at his time and he did it more often that anyone...........SPF=randyg
Click to expand...

Perhaps he wasn't good at putting down on paper his expertise, but I'm reminded that Einstein said nobody else really understood his theory of relativity despite his best attempts to explain it.

And my old eyes aren't the best but it looks obvious to me at :36 of this video that Mosconi uses a little slip stoke. Not as exaggerated as Jimmy Moore or Evorlino but it's there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIE5AOayYvI
 
lfigueroa said:
Well, all I can say in my defense...
Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

LF,
No need to "defend", and I apologize if you took that as criticism; it was not meant that way (you have always struck me as quite reasonable, knowledgeable, and polite). I was just responding to a common misperception of many here that certain instructors believe their way is "the only way" to get good. That is not to say that they do not prefer to only teach one way though, as their perception is an orthodox stroke is the quickest way to get good (though not quick), and the easiest way (though not easy).

Mark's method allows for quite a bit of individual variation, and without delving into the intricacies and specifics, I'm sure on the surface it might appear that students are quite similar as you have noted. In addition, without a series of many lessons with focused practice in between; it is quite unlikely that many students will really be exemplary models of the method - pool isn't that easy. It will be quite clear in his book what features of an orthodox stroke can be individualized without sacrificing potential consistency or precision.
 
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alstl said:
Perhaps he wasn't good at putting down on paper his expertise, but I'm reminded that Einstein said nobody else really understood his theory of relativity despite his best attempts to explain it.

And my old eyes aren't the best but it looks obvious to me at :36 of this video that Mosconi uses a little slip stoke. Not as exaggerated as Jimmy Moore or Evorlino but it's there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIE5AOayYvI
Click to expand...

This video again!!!

I've personally explained about 327 times. What he is doing is NOT
a slipstroke. He is meerly repositioning his hand back a few inches.

Dale<who knows a slipstroke when he sees one>
 
pdcue said:
100% correct. Not even close to slip stroke.

Dale<did I mention I saw him in person?>
Click to expand...

Just so we are clear on what a slip stroke is- it's when you have your grip hand choked up on the cue, and on the back stroke, you slip your grip hand back before delivering the cue to the cue ball.

A stroke slip is when you let the cue slide forward when you are delivering the cue to the cue ball.

All the videos I've seen clearly show Mosconi having a slip stroke. Not a big one, but he does slide his hand backwards about two inches. 0:35 in this video shows it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIE5AOayYvI&feature=related
 
pdcue said:
This video again!!!
This time somebody else posted it.

I've personally explained about 327 times.
Most of the time to me.

What he is doing is NOT
a slipstroke. He is meerly repositioning his hand back a few inches.
Lou seems to agree with you. I give up.

Dale<who knows a slipstroke when he sees one>
Click to expand...
Rich <--- who apparently doesn't
 
pdcue said:
This video again!!!

I've personally explained about 327 times. What he is doing is NOT
a slipstroke. He is meerly repositioning his hand back a few inches.

Dale<who knows a slipstroke when he sees one>
Click to expand...

After looking at it again I think you are right. What's odd about that shot is he is holding the cue farther back than normal. The next time I see him I'll ask him why he did that.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Just so we are clear on what a slip stroke is- it's when you have your grip hand choked up on the cue, and on the back stroke, you slip your grip hand back before delivering the cue to the cue ball.

A stroke slip is when you let the cue slide forward when you are delivering the cue to the cue ball.

All the videos I've seen clearly show Mosconi having a slip stroke. Not a big one, but he does slide his hand backwards about two inches. 0:35 in this video shows it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIE5AOayYvI&feature=related
Click to expand...

Sorry. You did accurately describe what a slip stroke is. So, knowing
that, how could you possibly misinterpret the video?

I saw Willie in person 4 times when he could still play.
He absolutely did not use a slip stroke - not even close.

Dale
 
Rich93 said:
Rich <--- who apparently doesn't
Click to expand...

I don't think it was only you.:) But I must admit to being puzzled by the
fact that so many people who seem quite knowledgeable, are so
determined to classify Willie's delivery as a 'slip stroke', even if only rarely.

Well, perhaps there is some value to sprited disscussion after all.

This might all come down to his style, or type, of stroke. What struck me
most about Willie was, how smooth he was. Believe me, Fred Astarie had
nothing on Willie Mosconi. He also was the most relaxed, never any sign
of tension while over the ball.

And that might be the underlying reason - compared to most all the great
players of the last 30 - 40 years, Willie's style was quite different.

Anyone who ever watched Jim Rempe set up for a shot could not help
but notice how solid and deliberate his stance and mechanics were.
The first time I saw Rempe play, I commented the guy looked more
like he was preparing to pick up the table than shoot at a ball.

Willie used a delivery that I describe as 'sliding' the cue - vs most players
that more seem to be 'swinging' the cue, Granted, these aren't the
most formal nor precise of terms, but I do think they convey the
general idea.


Maybe it is as simple as that - every slip stroke player I've ever seen has
much more the 'sliding' action in his stroke - somewhat like Willie's.

Dale
 
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pdcue said:
I don't think it was only you.:) But I must admit to being puzzled by the
fact that so many people who seem quite knowledgeable, are so
determined to classify Willie's delivery as a 'slip stroke', even if only rarely.

Well, perhaps there is some value to sprited disscussion after all.

This might all come down to his style, or type, of stroke. What struck me
most about Willie was, how smooth he was. Beleive me, Fred Astarie had
nothing on Willie Mosconi. He also was the most relaxed, never any sign
of tension while over the ball.

And that might be the underlying reason - compared to most all the great
players of the last 30 - 40 years, Willie's style was quite different.

Anyone who ever watched Jim Rempe set up for a shot could not help
but notice how solid and deliberate his stance and mechanics were.
The first time I saw Rempe play, I commented the guy looked more
like he was preparing to pick up the table than shoot at a ball.

Willie used a delivery that I describe as 'sliding' the cue - vs most players
that more seem to be 'swinging' the cue, Granted, these aren't the
most formal nor precise of terms, but I do think they convey the
general idea.


Maybe it is as simple as that - every slip stroke player I've ever seen has
much more the 'sliding' action in his stroke - somewhat like Willie's.

Dale
Click to expand...

He was beautiful to watch, that's for sure. I saw him twice in his almost prime - early 60's. He played fast and was as graceful as could be at the table. Your analogy to Fred Astaire - a friend of Willie's, by the way, and an avid player himself - is a very good one. Willie was like poetry in motion back then.

It's a real shame that nobody can see him today the way we saw him. The "legends" videos on youtube don't show the Willie I remember. In his later years he only screwed his cue together when there was money to be made and I think he got a little rusty, certainly more tentative. And usually he wasn't playing "his" game, straight pool. I think he won the first legends tournament, but in the repeats he was shellacked by Lassiter and Jimmy Moore. But they never beat him in straight pool tournaments in his prime.
 
Rich93 said:
I saw him twice in his almost prime - early 60's.
Click to expand...

Rich,
I am going to have to strongly disagree with your assessment that Willie's prime was in the early 1960's. Willie had a major stroke in the late 50's (??maybe '56 or '57). He did not compete for over a year afterwards.

When he finally returned to competition, he was a shadow of his former self - meaning he was only just as good as everyone else (instead of head and shoulders above everyone else). All of his world championships precede the 60's.

To my knowledge (and I have all of the Bert Kinister archive video's) there is NO video of Willie competing in his prime before the stroke. There are some trick shot videos from that period (which of course are very, very impressive if you like trick shots), but none of him competing. Very sad.

While it was fabulous to watch him at any age; I think we all would have been MUCH more impressed to see him in the 1940's - a ball pocketing machine the likes of which the world had never seen.
 
Williebetmore said:
Rich,
I am going to have to strongly disagree with your assessment that Willie's prime was in the early 1960's. Willie had a major stroke in the late 50's (??maybe '56 or '57). He did not compete for over a year afterwards.

When he finally returned to competition, he was a shadow of his former self - meaning he was only just as good as everyone else (instead of head and shoulders above everyone else). All of his world championships precede the 60's.

To my knowledge (and I have all of the Bert Kinister archive video's) there is NO video of Willie competing in his prime before the stroke. There are some trick shot videos from that period (which of course are very, very impressive if you like trick shots), but none of him competing. Very sad.

While it was fabulous to watch him at any age; I think we all would have been MUCH more impressed to see him in the 1940's - a ball pocketing machine the likes of which the world had never seen.
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree - that's why I said "almost" prime. I said that because I think he was still pretty sharp in the early 60's doing regular exhibitions during the post-Hustler boomlet. I guess not competition sharp - he entered that 1966 tournament and came in second to Balsis - but still able to run a hundred balls on any given day sharp and much better than the "legends" or Minnesota Fats matches, which are all we have available to watch today. No disagreement.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Just so we are clear on what a slip stroke is- it's when you have your grip hand choked up on the cue, and on the back stroke, you slip your grip hand back before delivering the cue to the cue ball.

A stroke slip is when you let the cue slide forward when you are delivering the cue to the cue ball.

All the videos I've seen clearly show Mosconi having a slip stroke. Not a big one, but he does slide his hand backwards about two inches. 0:35 in this video shows it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIE5AOayYvI&feature=related
Click to expand...

To be honest, in my 30 years shooting pool I NEVER came across the term "stroke slip". It was always "slip stroke" as in adjective noun(a description of a type of stroke), not "step1(stroke) >step2(slip)" which describes an action sequence..

Is stroke slip a new term because everyone was getting confused between the 2 types???
 
Rich93 said:
Oh, I agree - that's why I said "almost" prime. I said that because I think he was still pretty sharp in the early 60's doing regular exhibitions during the post-Hustler boomlet. I guess not competition sharp - he entered that 1966 tournament and came in second to Balsis - but still able to run a hundred balls on any given day sharp and much better than the "legends" or Minnesota Fats matches, which are all we have available to watch today. No disagreement.
Click to expand...

I saw the "almost". I would agree, the competive edge might have
softened somewhat, but the style was still there. I saw him run
100-and-out on three occasions circa 1961 - 1963 -
effortless is all I can say...

Dale
 
pdcue said:
Sorry. You did accurately describe what a slip stroke is. So, knowing
that, how could you possibly misinterpret the video?

I saw Willie in person 4 times when he could still play.
He absolutely did not use a slip stroke - not even close.

Dale
Click to expand...

Here is another video. Look closely at 3:27. This time he slides his hand back what looks to be about three inches. Like it or not, it's a slip stroke.

http://vimeo.com/4957545
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Here is another video. Look closely at 3:27. This time he slides his hand back what looks to be about three inches. Like it or not, it's a slip stroke.

http://vimeo.com/4957545
Click to expand...

Like it or not, it is still NOT a slip stroke - not sliding the hand backwards
on the backstroke.

Did I mention I saw HIM before there was such a thing as a video?

Dale<still puzzled>
 
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