Using Virtual Pool to play better One-Pocket

Sigh...such skeptics. Even JoeyA thinks I'm a flake. You guys sure are a hard audience! Do I think those shots will go? Sure. It would've helped if I'd posted an overhead view so the spacing was clearer. Would I play one of them at DCC against JoeyA for a dime? Nope. I'm not that sporty. Would I try one with a Girl Scout for a box of Peanut Butter Patties®. Sure. No...wait a minute...was Jeanette a Girl Scout?

Part of the problem with pool sims is that we don't really fully understand the physics of pool--in spite of the great work done by Bob and Dave, the books by Marlow and Koehler, and a ton of discussion on pool forums. A good example of what simulations lack is well represented by JoeyA and Danny's commentary about deflection/squirt and dry tables during this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE9IsqiKZxQ

When I play against people who are inexperienced, I sometimes go into what my wife calls "Junior mode". 20 years ago, I had the privilege of watching Weldon Rogers (JR, Junior, etc) play a guy who was half-a-hair or two under shortstop speed, and had no idea who he was playing. I don't remember seeing Weldon run a rack all night. He was shooting some of the goofiest stuff I'd ever seen, and had it been some unknown, I'd have thought he was the sloppiest player in the world.

I really am going to use VP to learn some of those JR shots--and trick shots. While VP and other sims aren't perfect, with a little adjusting, they are very handy for learning thngs--like new clearance shots. Anyone who's seen one of Tom Rossman's shows, or the amazing stuff by Florian, shouldn't be surprised by what can happen on a pool table. Heck, I bet everyone who posts here has scratched their head a few times at something unbelievable that happened during a game.


Here's another VP shot:


vp4.jpg


vp5.jpg



Pretty unbelievable, right?



But is it any stranger than this from Byrne's Treasury of Trick Shots in Pool and Billiards:


vp12.jpg


Or this from Byrne's Complete Book of Pool Shots: 350 Moves Every Player Should Know:



vp10.jpg



And there's this Nick Varner favorite:



powerof9s.jpg


From: http://billiards.about.com/od/easypropositionshots/a/07_01_05thepowe.htm


...now, where do I get a black t-shirt with "NIT" in big white letters....
 
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There are a lot of shots that "will go" but pool is a game of odds. If you keep rolling the dice you will be broke. These are "shoot that til your broke" shots. Try the shot above on tight pockets with money over the lights and let us know what happened!
 
Black-Balled said:
Is this how you learned to drive?(Oh, I think you know who you are)
100402mariokart.jpg
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No but it's how a lot of people learn to drive. There are real world driving simulators. And I don't think that you want to be in a modern plane with a pilot who hasn't logged plenty of simulator time.

I guarantee you it's a lot easier to learn the "right move" with complicated setups using Virtual Pool than it is when you have to reset the balls on the real table after each attempt.
 
Bob Callahan said:
Sigh...such skeptics. Even JoeyA thinks I'm a flake. You guys sure are a hard audience! Do I think those shots will go? Sure. It would've helped if I'd posted an overhead view so the spacing was clearer. Would I play one of them at DCC against JoeyA for a dime? Nope. I'm not that sporty. Would I try one with a Girl Scout for a box of Peanut Butter Patties®. Sure. No...wait a minute...was Jeanette a Girl Scout?

Part of the problem with pool sims is that we don't really fully understand the physics of pool--in spite of the great work done by Bob and Dave, the books by Marlow and Koehler, and a ton of discussion on pool forums. A good example of what simulations lack is well represented by JoeyA and Danny's commentary about deflection/squirt and dry tables during this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE9IsqiKZxQ

When I play against people who are inexperienced, I sometimes go into what my wife calls "Junior mode". 20 years ago, I had the privilege of watching Weldon Rogers (JR, Junior, etc) play a guy who was half-a-hair or two under shortstop speed, and had no idea who he was playing. I don't remember seeing Weldon run a rack all night. He was shooting some of the goofiest stuff I'd ever seen, and had it been some unknown, I'd have thought he was the sloppiest player in the world.

I really am going to use VP to learn some of those JR shots--and trick shots. While VP and other sims aren't perfect, with a little adjusting, they are very handy for learning thngs--like new clearance shots. Anyone who's seen one of Tom Rossman's shows, or the amazing stuff by Florian, shouldn't be surprised by what can happen on a pool table. Heck, I bet everyone who posts here has scratched their head a few times at something unbelievable that happened during a game.


Here's another VP shot:


View attachment 168670


View attachment 168671



Pretty unbelievable, right?



But is it any stranger than this from Byrne's Treasury of Trick Shots in Pool and Billiards:


View attachment 168678


Or this from Byrne's Complete Book of Pool Shots: 350 Moves Every Player Should Know:



View attachment 168666



And there's this Nick Varner favorite:



View attachment 168669


From: http://billiards.about.com/od/easypropositionshots/a/07_01_05thepowe.htm


...now, where do I get a black t-shirt with "NIT" in big white letters....
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Not skeptical Bob. It is probably "fun" to try those shots with the program. Put some of your hard earned dough up against a good player and shots like those will lighten your load.

Thanks for the nice compliments about the commentary. It really is appreciated.

I like the illustration shots by Byrnes a LOT.

thanks,
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
Not skeptical Bob. It is probably "fun" to try those shots with the program. Put some of your hard earned dough up against a good player and shots like those will lighten your load.

Thanks for the nice compliments about the commentary. It really is appreciated.

I like the illustration shots by Byrnes a LOT.

thanks,
JoeyA
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I don't agree Joey. What if Bob had put up a bunch of Efren's "magic" shots and not told anyone that they were shots which Efren had already used to win major events and money matches? You and others here would probably deride him just the same and what would you say when he showed the video of Efren making those shots?

I would shoot ANY of these shots in a heart beat IF I could control the balls. which I would know AFTER I practiced them enough on the table.

I practiced weird shots all the time until I master them and I do put up my own dough and shoot those shots when gambling. But they aren't flyers for me because I know what I am doing.
 
I remember first seeing VP back in 97. My teachers son and i would play 9 ball and it wasnt even fair. My opponent would just line up the break shot for the 9 to go in and it did... Every time :rolleyes:
 
I'm a little skeptical of how the Software Engine works on these programs when it comes to collisions that are just microseconds apart. I think that in order for the computer to keep up with all the tasks going on the math gets incremented in time slices. In the real world these balls separate a curtain way and in comp world they impact simultaneously (time slice).

Still a useful tool.

Nick

Bob Callahan said:
Look at the image below, and think about what you would do if that's your pocket in one-pocket:


View attachment 168565



Ignoring the rest of the table, you might be tempted to move balls toward your pocket, and play things a little safe...then along comes Virtual Pool.

This isn't an ad for them, although many folks on the various forums say it's the best pool simulator around. This is about using pool simulators to improve your game. Bought the program almost a year ago, fooled with it a little, then let it sit--until reading in Time Magazine about 19-year-old chess prodigy, Magnus Carlsen.

This quote might explain the sudden renewed interest in VP:


"Carlsen joins chess's élite at a time of unprecedented change. He is one of a generation of players who learned the game from computers. To this day, he's not certain if he has an actual board at home. "I might have one somewhere. I'm not sure," he says. Powerful chess programs, which now routinely beat the best human competitors, have allowed grand masters to study positions at a deeper level than was possible before."​
From: A Bold Opening for Chess Player Magnus Carlsen

Okay Bob...drag out the laptop, start up VP, and see what you can do.

This is what I learned:

Make the 7:


View attachment 168566



Or make the 3:




View attachment 168567



Alright, I'm not a total idiot...I might have seen the 7...but the 3!!!

All that changed between the two shots was a slight adjustment in where the cluster was hit. English, etc remained the same, although all of those could be adjusted, too, to control where the cue ball ended up.

Lesson learned.

Virtual Pool will become part of my training this year. One-pocket has been a game that is usually learned from the old masters, who wisely were slow in sharing their knowledge. But pool simutators are new tools to add to playing, watching videos, and reading.


How about you? Do you use a pool simulator?
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RunoutJJ said:
I remember first seeing VP back in 97. My teachers son and i would play 9 ball and it wasnt even fair. My opponent would just line up the break shot for the 9 to go in and it did... Every time :rolleyes:
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Yep.

This is my favorite, so far:



vp13.jpg


vp14.jpg



Why does this work in VP, but not in the real world? Because VP is playing on a perfect table, in perfect conditions. We don't. The break is particularly hard to simulate because it is truly chaotic, in the honest-to-goodness mathematical sense: very small differences in the racking and table conditions can translate to big differences in how the balls scatter. George Onoda was looking into this when I quit playing pool 20 years ago.

Wait...hold it...seen a Sardo rack in tournament play lately? Watched Donnie Mills v Shane van Boening?

Huuuuummmm...maybe, if we had 2-inch slate, heated tables, and the same cloth as the 3C guys--and kept using the M-5000, making the 9 on the break might become routine.

Sheesh, that'd sure be fun, wouldn't it?


P.S.: I'm still looking for the Holy Grail of shots: all nine balls on the break.
 
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I think we should have a VP vs. Real World shootout. Who can post the craziest shots that they can make in VP and in Real Life. Florian, you are excluded as you would just reverse engineer your real world shots. :-)
 
Haven't read the whole thread but I play virtual pool all the time on my iphone and ipad when I can't be near a table and I know for a fact that it really helps me practice my pattern selection in eight ball and nine ball. How could it not???

It is common on here for the crowd to dismiss good points entirely because they find one aspect of the idea that they don't like. Don't feel bad. It's a good thread.

Also I play chess on my iphone as well. Both games are exercising my brain muscle daily.
 
To tell you the truth, I can't make a ball at VP and I really don't see how it could possibly help.

Nick van den Berg apparently seems to be pretty good at online pool game, or so they say in this interview...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WxYSrgFP3I

Two players were interviewed here. One plays great software/virtual pool, while other is excellent at real game and is very well known throughout the world. Real player says that in order to play virtual game well, you'd need to have good understanding on how real game works...could be right. What do you think?
 
i don't like people who talk but know nothing about the subject. I'm not a great player but i could understand a little about pool and I can say vp is a very realistic game. Actually the shots the opening post is suggesting are risky and i'm not sure how they can be made but vp aiming aid is not precise.
And people say " i would never play these shots in real life in a money game" i would say thank you. The op said with vp you could play better pool because you can learn shots you wouldn't try in real life except if you are playing alone or against a weak player.
Try the game and then speak.
 
JB Cases said:
I don't agree Joey. What if Bob had put up a bunch of Efren's "magic" shots and not told anyone that they were shots which Efren had already used to win major events and money matches? You and others here would probably deride him just the same and what would you say when he showed the video of Efren making those shots?

I would shoot ANY of these shots in a heart beat IF I could control the balls. which I would know AFTER I practiced them enough on the table.

I practiced weird shots all the time until I master them and I do put up my own dough and shoot those shots when gambling. But they aren't flyers for me because I know what I am doing.
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John,
Can you "control" these balls as they are set up never having seen this shot before or even having practiced this shots dozens of time in real life?

I think not. Besides, one pocket is NOT ABOUT MAKING miracle shots. While we've all learned a lot from Efren, the vast majority of us will never be an Efren, so to compare his phenomenal relationship with the interaction of the balls is like comparing Jay Helfert to Jesse James.

The facts are the layout showed many other balls on this table and anyone who is attempting to shoot either of these two particular shots is cruisin' for a bruisin'. Are you one of those guys John?

PERSONALLY, I love the idea of shooting these shots "for fun", on a computer or on a real pool table, but just for fun. In order for these shots to go, there are too many things that have to happen in a strict order for them to be practical.

But really, these layouts and shots are "fun shots", nothing more.

Could they be practical shots that you would play in a money game? Most likely not, ESPECIALLY with all of those other balls on the table.

I'm sure I would enjoy playing with the pool video game as well and I'm sure I could learn a lot from the video game, (I'm not tryng to minimize the value of the game) but real time on the table tells me, I would not shoot either of those two shots, ESPECIALLY with all of those other ballls on the table, no matter what the score. The ability to set up the same shot over and over on a video pool game is NOT the same as "trying" to set up the same complicated layout over and over on a real pool table.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
John,
Can you "control" these balls as they are set up never having seen this shot before or even having practiced this shots dozens of time in real life?

I think not. Besides, one pocket is NOT ABOUT MAKING miracle shots. While we've all learned a lot from Efren, the vast majority of us will never be an Efren, so to compare his phenomenal relationship with the interaction of the balls is like comparing Jay Helfert to Jesse James.

The facts are the layout showed many other balls on this table and anyone who is attempting to shoot either of these two particular shots is cruisin' for a bruisin'. Are you one of those guys John?

PERSONALLY, I love the idea of shooting these shots "for fun", on a computer or on a real pool table, but just for fun. In order for these shots to go, there are too many things that have to happen in a strict order for them to be practical.

But really, these layouts and shots are "fun shots", nothing more.

Could they be practical shots that you would play in a money game? Most likely not, ESPECIALLY with all of those other balls on the table.

I'm sure I would enjoy playing with the pool video game as well and I'm sure I could learn a lot from the video game, (I'm not tryng to minimize the value of the game) but real time on the table tells me, I would not shoot either of those two shots, ESPECIALLY with all of those other ballls on the table, no matter what the score. The ability to set up the same shot over and over on a video pool game is NOT the same as "trying" to set up the same complicated layout over and over on a real pool table.

JoeyA
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Do you have any idea how Efren got to be Efren?

When asked how he can do all those miracle shots he said he watches amateurs play and when they make some fluke shot he practices that shot until he can do it on purpose.

I don't care what YOU would do in YOUR game. If you choose to not experiment and learn new things then that's fine. For me part of the JOY of playing pool is figuring out new things and mastering them.

In fact I do try to be more like Efren and less like you in this regard. And because of it I know a lot of shots that I can shoot that other people don't know and won't try anyway.

The fact of the matter is that with any pool simulator that you can set to practice mode and save layouts you can stimulate your MIND and mess around with different things and THEN take it to to the table to see what you can realistically use. THAT is the point of the thread and NOTHING else.

As for one pocket not being about making miracle shots I think you need to start watching more one pocket. The one pocket I watch, including the matches you commentated on, have plenty of "miracle" shots in them. But I think what you really mean to say is that winning one pocket isn't about making FLYERS. And if so then you're right. However what looks like a flyer to you might be a hanger for someone else who actually spends enough time practicing it.
 
JoeyA said:
John,
Can you "control" these balls as they are set up never having seen this shot before or even having practiced this shots dozens of time in real life?
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No, can you? That's not the point of the thread.

Do you think Bob was some advocating that people "learn" these on VP and then run out to the pool room for some $500 a rack one hole and shoot these shots without ever having tried them on the pool table?

PERSONALLY, I love the idea of shooting these shots "for fun", on a computer or on a real pool table, but just for fun. In order for these shots to go, there are too many things that have to happen in a strict order for them to be practical.

But really, these layouts and shots are "fun shots", nothing more.
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You're wrong. It's not any wonder that the Filipinos, not just Efren, often come with such shots and the Americans don't. They don't seem to be so uptight about the "correct" way to play one pocket.

Could they be practical shots that you would play in a money game? Most likely not, ESPECIALLY with all of those other balls on the table.
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It depends on the situation. If I could get the cue ball safe then I will certainly play any shot I want to. The WHOLE point of this is that it's fun to discover paths that you might not have considered before BECAUSE you didn't know that they were even possible.

In fact, how many times have you seen a fluke bank and thought that it would be a good one pocket shot? Plenty I am sure. Do you ever take any of those shots to the table and try to figure out how to do them? I do.

I'm sure I would enjoy playing with the pool video game as well and I'm sure I could learn a lot from the video game, (I'm not tryng to minimize the value of the game
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)

You are exactly trying to devalue the use of the simulator.


but real time on the table tells me, I would not shoot either of those two shots, ESPECIALLY with all of those other ballls on the table, no matter what the score.
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Well that's the difference then between you and I. I would practice those shots until I owned them and understood all the dynamics and risks and if I chose to shoot them then you can damn well be sure it's because I know what will happen. And I will enjoy the applause from the rail.

The ability to set up the same shot over and over on a video pool game is NOT the same as "trying" to set up the same complicated layout over and over on a real pool table.
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Um, you can mark positions on the real pool table. But the POINT is that you can play around with it on the simulator until you rule out all the paths that absolutely don't work and focus on the paths that have merit.

I honestly do not get why ANYONE would criticize a valuable tool like this. As a game I don't care much for VP or any pool video game. As a training tool it's huge in my opinion.
 
Those 1st two shots are insane shots to take. I assume there's something of value to absorb from VP, but if VP 1P leads you to take flyers like this.. -->

hairball.jpg
 
JB Cases said:
No, can you? That's not the point of the thread.

Do you think Bob was some advocating that people "learn" these on VP and then run out to the pool room for some $500 a rack one hole and shoot these shots without ever having tried them on the pool table?



You're wrong. It's not any wonder that the Filipinos, not just Efren, often come with such shots and the Americans don't. They don't seem to be so uptight about the "correct" way to play one pocket.



It depends on the situation. If I could get the cue ball safe then I will certainly play any shot I want to. The WHOLE point of this is that it's fun to discover paths that you might not have considered before BECAUSE you didn't know that they were even possible.

In fact, how many times have you seen a fluke bank and thought that it would be a good one pocket shot? Plenty I am sure. Do you ever take any of those shots to the table and try to figure out how to do them? I do.

)

You are exactly trying to devalue the use of the simulator.




Well that's the difference then between you and I. I would practice those shots until I owned them and understood all the dynamics and risks and if I chose to shoot them then you can damn well be sure it's because I know what will happen. And I will enjoy the applause from the rail.



Um, you can mark positions on the real pool table. But the POINT is that you can play around with it on the simulator until you rule out all the paths that absolutely don't work and focus on the paths that have merit.

I honestly do not get why ANYONE would criticize a valuable tool like this. As a game I don't care much for VP or any pool video game. As a training tool it's huge in my opinion.
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I've apparently and unintenionally stepped on someone's toes in this thread. I guess it's my bad.

I was just addressing the shot and table layout displayed in the original post and how it appears to be a bad decision to shoot either of those two balls in a real game of one pocket with no intent to knock the game.

Don't get so uptight about what other people say John.
 
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