Bending the Object Ball

[JoeyA]

CueTable Help

This is a shot that a person called pro-player once claimed that Efren Reyes made. Let's assume that the one ball doesn't pass the two ball and you want to make the one ball in the lower left hand corner pocket. (We can assume that the other pockets are blocked as well).

Let's also assume that this is on old Simonis cloth not super-smooth new Simonis cloth.

Let's also assume that this is using clean balls.

Let's further assume that it is on a regular 9 foot Diamond pool table.


From the angle of where the cue ball is, can the one ball be BENT (curved) around the two ball and pocketed in the lower left corner pocket? If so, how?

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[geno]

Yes it can. If you want to know how we can discuss it when it comes up when we play some for fitty or a hunny a game. Or you could just ask Johnny Brumback. He loves to bend the balls.

CueTable Help

This is a shot that a person called pro-player once claimed that Efren Reyes made. Let's assume that the one ball doesn't pass the two ball and you want to make the one ball in the lower left hand corner pocket. (We can assume that the other pockets are blocked as well).

Let's also assume that this is on old Simonis cloth not super-smooth new Simonis cloth.

Let's also assume that this is using clean balls.

Let's further assume that it is on a regular 9 foot Diamond pool table.


From the angle of where the cue ball is, can the one ball be BENT (curved) around the two ball and pocketed in the lower left corner pocket? If so, how?

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[oldzilla]

I don't think so !!!

You can make the object ball jump but come on man !

I don't see it happening unless the table has a bad roll in it..

 

[ceebee]

absolutely... Robert Byrne discusses this phenomenon is his tapes. You have to strike the object ball on a path to clear the other object ball while similtaneously throwing the object ball the opposite direction. When the spin takes hold,... Voila! the Bend

I have done this on several occasions over the years... a roadie came through Fort Worth in the late 60's & showed us kids a few tricks of the trade.

You can also cause an object ball to jump an object ball when passage isn't clear..

 

[Hierovision]

Table roll would be my guess. The literal attempt would be to apply a shit-ton of top left and hope it translates into some measure of bottom right on the object ball.

I can't see it realistically happening, but it would be interesting to see someone put it to the test.

 

[mnShooter]

This shot will pick up some spin in the direction the cueball is travelling. This is a property well known by bankers as collision induced spin. It will slide and then curve a bit until the spin wears off. The amount of slide and spin depends on the speed of the hit. This is part of the reason why a shot hit with a higher speed tends to cut more than a softer shot with the same contact point.

As for the shot you posted, it may or may not be possible to make. It's hard to tell on the WEI table. It would probably be easier if the balls were dirty and object ball was closer to the pocket because you will need a soft hit to get much curve. Even then it will curve just slightly.

 

[sfleinen]

[...WEI table snipped...]

This is a shot that a person called pro-player once claimed that Efren Reyes made. Let's assume that the one ball doesn't pass the two ball and you want to make the one ball in the lower left hand corner pocket. (We can assume that the other pockets are blocked as well).

Let's also assume that this is on old Simonis cloth not super-smooth new Simonis cloth.

Let's also assume that this is using clean balls.

Let's further assume that it is on a regular 9 foot Diamond pool table.


From the angle of where the cue ball is, can the one ball be BENT (curved) around the two ball and pocketed in the lower left corner pocket? If so, how?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Joey:

Jack-up a bit, put some bottom left on the cue ball, and cut that 1-ball as indicated. This is a speed shot, so you have to get the speed just right. What happens here is that you very-slightly overcut the 1-ball so that it heads for the second diamond away from the corner pocket, and the 1-ball will "bend" slightly to the right, towards the pocket. Jacked-up bottom-left on the cue ball, combined with the cut and the speed, simultaneously puts throw and right-hand spin on the object ball. The throw resists the cut, while the "gear effect" of the object ball taking the spin in the opposite direction causes the 1-ball to resist the cut as well as resisting the cloth. The two combined gives you the "bend."

You *do* have to get the speed right for this shot to work. Efren, as we all know, is the master of spin and speed.

-Sean

 

[JoeyA]

This shot will pick up some spin in the direction the cueball is travelling. This is a property well known by bankers as collision induced spin. It will slide and then curve a bit until the spin wears off. The amount of slide and spin depends on the speed of the hit. This is part of the reason why a shot hit with a higher speed tends to cut more than a softer shot with the same contact point.

As for the shot you posted, it may or may not be possible to make. It's hard to tell on the WEI table. It would probably be easier if the balls were dirty and object ball was closer to the pocket because you will need a soft hit to get much curve. Even then it will curve just slightly.

That's why I said the balls were clean. If the cloth were new and smooth I would assume that this would help prevent some of the collision induced spin on the object ball from curving it as well.

 

[Papa Red]

With extreme low left, hitting the cue slow will allow the english to transfer to to OB and curve around the one toward the pocket! It's allot easier with the new cloth we use today.

 

[JoeyA]

Joey:

Jack-up a bit, put some bottom left on the cue ball, and cut that 1-ball as indicated. This is a speed shot, so you have to get the speed just right. What happens here is that you very-slightly overcut the 1-ball so that it heads for the second diamond away from the corner pocket, and the 1-ball will "bend" slightly to the right, towards the pocket. Jacked-up bottom-left on the cue ball, combined with the cut and the speed, simultaneously puts throw and right-hand spin on the object ball. The throw resists the cut, while the "gear effect" of the object ball taking the spin in the opposite direction causes the 1-ball to resist the cut as well as resisting the cloth. The two combined gives you the "bend."

You *do* have to get the speed right for this shot to work. Efren, as we all know, is the master of spin and speed.

-Sean

I will try it just as you suggest over and over and over. Hopefully I will be able to place the object ball and the cue ball in the same position each time so that my efforts will be based upon the same layout.

I know that when these difficult shots are set up, people have a tendency to move the object balls minutely, somtimes by either accident, or subconsciously or on purpose to improve their chances of making the shot. Small inconsistencies in ball placement can exaggerate or alter the results. I doubt I will attempt to use reinforcement stickers as that would probably just add another problem to the shot.

I would like to determine how much bend I can apply to the object ball on such a shot.

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[hunger strike]

clean balls.... throw

unless there is some sort of polish residue on balls that have JUST BEEN POLISHED, clean balls can throw as much or more than dirty balls. Phenolic balls look shiny so we think they're smoother than they are. Old antique clay balls are not shiny so we think they are rough. The opposite is true. If you wanna prove this to yourself, then do a double bank the long way and see where the object ball has to hit on the second end rail to go in the opposite corner.

 

[JoeyA]

With extreme low left, hitting the cue slow will allow the english to transfer to to OB and curve around the one toward the pocket! It's allot easier with the new cloth we use today.

You're saying that the new, smooth cloth makes it easier to curve/bend the object ball or just smoother cloth vs. old nappy cloth?

I would think that NEW cloth would create less friction on the object ball and increase the amount of squirt but reduce the amount of curve/bend/swerve.

 

[JoeyA]

unless there is some sort of polish residue on balls that have JUST BEEN POLISHED, clean balls can throw as much or more than dirty balls. Phenolic balls look shiny so we think they're smoother than they are. Old antique clay balls are not shiny so we think they are rough. The opposite is true. If you wanna prove this to yourself, then do a double bank the long way and see where the object ball has to hit on the second end rail to go in the opposite corner.

That's an interesting thought. I've always assumed that dirty balls would help to create more friction than clean balls (not waxed or "just been polished" balls). I guess it's true though that "not just been polished balls" means not too clean balls. But I will still keep this in mind when I have a set of clean balls versus a set of dirty balls and test out your theory.

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[Papa Red]

Joey:

Jack-up a bit, put some bottom left on the cue ball, and cut that 1-ball as indicated. This is a speed shot, so you have to get the speed just right. What happens here is that you very-slightly overcut the 1-ball so that it heads for the second diamond away from the corner pocket, and the 1-ball will "bend" slightly to the right, towards the pocket. Jacked-up bottom-left on the cue ball, combined with the cut and the speed, simultaneously puts throw and right-hand spin on the object ball. The throw resists the cut, while the "gear effect" of the object ball taking the spin in the opposite direction causes the 1-ball to resist the cut as well as resisting the cloth. The two combined gives you the "bend."

You *do* have to get the speed right for this shot to work. Efren, as we all know, is the master of spin and speed.

-Sean

What he said! The stoke is more like a kill stroke on the cue ball letting the OB do the work!

 

[JoeyA]

Yes it can. If you want to know how we can discuss it when it comes up when we play some for fitty or a hunny a game. Or you could just ask Johnny Brumback. He loves to bend the balls.

To heck with playing. I'm going to let you shoot it for $50 or a $100 per shot til I am broke. (And yes, I will be the one setting the shot up). What city and pool room do I need to come to?

John does talk about bending the object balls and that is one of the reasons that prompted me to start this thread. I Know he is busy right now.

 

[MitchAlsup]

If the CB is hit with maxumum draw (and a touch of left), it will impart some follow to the OB, maybe just enough to bend the OB around the interfereing ball and make the pocket. So you aim the shot at the 7th diamond on the rail and then allow the top-spin to bend the OB's path towards the pocket.

In my experience in pulling these kinds of shots off, you can only move the OB enough so that if the interfering ball was 2 tooth-picks (2mm) farther off line the OB could have been made straight (i.e. there would have been no interference.)

However, Efren is much better than I, and maybe he could make if bend a little more (3 tooth-picks?)

 

[JoeyA]

If the CB is hit with maxumum draw (and a touch of left), it will impart some follow to the OB, maybe just enough to bend the OB around the interfereing ball and make the pocket. So you aim the shot at the 7th diamond on the rail and then allow the top-spin to bend the OB's path towards the pocket.

In my experience in pulling these kinds of shots off, you can only move the OB enough so that if the interfering ball was 2 tooth-picks (2mm) farther off line the OB could have been made straight (i.e. there would have been no interference.)

However, Efren is much better than I, and maybe he could make if bend a little more (3 tooth-picks?)

I like the toothpick measurement reference a lot.

I will give Geno the same amount of space to bend the cue ball as Efren. :grin:

 

[geno]

To heck with playing. I'm going to let you shoot it for $50 or a $100 per shot til I am broke. (And yes, I will be the one setting the shot up). What city and pool room do I need to come to?

John does talk about bending the object balls and that is one of the reasons that prompted me to start this thread. I Know he is busy right now.

I will gladly put Brumback in action with that shot but as for me, I am just a wannabe I would not just shoot the shot for the cash. But I will shoot it shot for shot against you.

I will PM you and tell you were we can play. We can play at a local tournament sometime near you.

I'm not calling you out but I would play some banks with you.

 

[Jal]

...I would think that NEW cloth would create less friction on the object ball and increase the amount of squirt but reduce the amount of curve/bend/swerve.

A ball with a masse spin component will change direction by the same amount regardless of how slick or "grabby" the cloth. But a more grabby cloth will cause that change of direction to happen sooner, so the curve will be tighter. In your example, a slicker cloth might be of some help since you want the 1-ball to execute a more open curve in order to clear the 2-ball.

However, an OB will not curve to any significant extent without being struck by an airborn cueball. That is, in order to induce a masse spin component, the cueball has to contact it above the horizontal equator. As oddzilla mentioned, this will also cause it to jump. The combination of jump and subsequent curve might be enough to clear the 2-ball and then "straighten out" after landing/bouncing and head for the pocket.

In principle, you can get the OB to curve just be using draw or follow at any non-zero cut angle. But calculations indicate that, at most, the change in direction is miniscule (in fact, very hard to measure and probably overridden by random buffeting by the cloth's weave pattern).

Jim

 

[JoeyA]

I will gladly put Brumback in action with that shot but as for me, I am just a wannabe I would not just shoot the shot for the cash. But I will shoot it shot for shot against you.

I will PM you and tell you were we can play. We can play at a local tournament sometime near you.

I'm not calling you out but I would play some banks with you.

Jay Helfert is your banks man.

What is your name, the city and state and the pool room where you play?

Thanks,
JoeyA