Piston Stroke Info?

The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Are there any instructors that actually teach the piston stroke? Or even a video analysis of the physiology and advanced timing required to pull one off consistently as opposed to the classic pendulum? Am not starting a debate in what stroke is better just looking for examples and reference points close to how I have hit the balls for 20+ years. I have no interest in changing to the pendulum since the ball paths for tip offset would have to be relearned.
 
The Renfro said:
Are there any instructors that actually teach the piston stroke? Or even a video analysis of the physiology and advanced timing required to pull one off consistently as opposed to the classic pendulum? Am not starting a debate in what stroke is better just looking for examples and reference points close to how I have hit the balls for 20+ years.


I have no interest in changing to the pendulum since the ball paths for tip offset would have to be relearned.
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HUH??? Why???
randyg
 
The pendulum has a window of contact close to perpendicular where there is zero acceleration and decelerates shortly after contact. The piston is still accelerating at contact so it tends to impart a little more english/juice on the ball than the pendulum. The window makes the pendulum the preferred stroke because speed control is much more consistent and repeatable at constant velocity.

With that said I have been playing all my life with the piston and have set visuals over the course of years as to what to expect given a certain impact angle, cueing angle, speed, and tip offset. I tried the pendulum and found that I still made balls but the cueball paths did not match what I had in my head. I had to use more tip offset than my brain was telling me I needed to get "my" expected results.

I was looking for an instructor or materials that could help with key reference points similar to the check list for setting up the pendulum.

Thanks for the input Bob I'll check the snooker clip and snooker training materials. I doubt you remember me but I babbled for a half hour or so at the 09 Open about COR, phenolic and the adhesives used in layered tips while you patiently listened. I always have respected your opinions back to RSB.
 
The Renfro said:
The pendulum has a window of contact close to perpendicular where there is zero acceleration and decelerates shortly after contact. The piston is still accelerating at contact so it tends to impart a little more english/juice on the ball than the pendulum. The window makes the pendulum the preferred stroke because speed control is much more consistent and repeatable at constant velocity.

With that said I have been playing all my life with the piston and have set visuals over the course of years as to what to expect given a certain impact angle, cueing angle, speed, and tip offset. I tried the pendulum and found that I still made balls but the cueball paths did not match what I had in my head. I had to use more tip offset than my brain was telling me I needed to get "my" expected results.

I was looking for an instructor or materials that could help with key reference points similar to the check list for setting up the pendulum.

Thanks for the input Bob I'll check the snooker clip and snooker training materials. I doubt you remember me but I babbled for a half hour or so at the 09 Open about COR, phenolic and the adhesives used in layered tips while you patiently listened. I always have respected your opinions back to RSB.
Click to expand...

Hi, snooker stroke imo are piston strokes, search youtube videos of snooker instruction, one of the videos i watched which i forgot where, suggested 4 reference points that need to be aligned or contact with the cue. they are chin, chest, elbow, rear foot. This is for snooker as far as i remember.
 
The Renfro said:
The pendulum has a window of contact close to perpendicular where there is zero acceleration and decelerates shortly after contact..
Click to expand...

Sorry, that is not correct.
You cannot drop your elbow and accelerate faster than by not dropping it and bringing your grip hand up the shoulder to complete the stroke.
The only way you can PROBABLY accelerate faster is by throwing the cue ala Efren.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Sorry, that is not correct.
You cannot drop your elbow and accelerate faster than by not dropping it and bringing your grip hand up the shoulder to complete the stroke.
The only way you can PROBABLY accelerate faster is by throwing the cue ala Efren.
Click to expand...

Talking about at contact Joey. The Pendulum and piston could be equal as far as total acceleration ie. velocity. Am not trying to argue which method achieves the most acceleration am saying the piston may still be accelerating thru contact while the pendulum by it's nature has finished accelerating by the time you are at the moment of contact.

Very first topic on the page is about acceleration.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html

Thanks Klopek!
 
If you are aligned perfectly and you are using the Pendulum-Stroke the highest acceleration ist not at the point of contact ! It s *behind* it. You re wrong in this point.
And i would be thankful if you could give me a detailed description WHY you WOULD/SHOULD have more or better acceleration with a piston-stroke.

waiting,

lg
Ingo
 
Ratta said:
If you are aligned perfectly and you are using the Pendulum-Stroke the highest acceleration ist not at the point of contact ! It s *behind* it. You re wrong in this point.
And i would be thankful if you could give me a detailed description WHY you WOULD/SHOULD have more or better acceleration with a piston-stroke.

waiting,

lg
Ingo
Click to expand...

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html

Click the link. It's there in black and white under acceleration. I am not saying you have more or better acceleration with a piston I am saying that it is still accelerating at contact.

This continued acceleration thru contact likely makes it not as consistent as the pendulum so it requires more time on the table to stay in stroke. I haven't had the time lately so I was looking for some benchmarks to help build a new preshot routine and I think the chest contact point may be worth the time to try and incorporate.
 
I recommend you try out whatever works for you; try everthing you see, it doesn't cost a thing! Where pool is concerned, I see a lot of guys using incredibly awkward-looking stances where their bodies are twisted to face away from the direction of shooting and their legs are shaped stiff like a machine gun bipod... and then their stroke moves all over the place like a theme park ride. I just don't get it, but it works for them! And they produce quality pool nonetheless. My understanding is that the snooker type stroke is used because, from what I feel, you have much more delicate control of the power-- pendulum technique seems to take some control away because your delivery is partly influenced by your arm doing some playground swing motion from gravity. Snooker balls and tips are smaller, so that delicacy is unquestionably needed. Also, in snooker, our chests face down and only down, even if we are stretching for a shot. Many pool players, including Efren Reyes, seem to like to turn sideways when reaching further across the table. I'm not sure if this is a taught principle technique or simply laziness but I think you lose a lot of control over cueing when you're teetering over the table like that on your hip.
Bob Jewett said:
I think a lot of snooker players have a piston stroke at least some of the time. See both players in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzJIfLsQiVU

I'd look to snooker coaches.
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Oi we just call it the correct stroke! Never heard of "piston" before :grin:

Haha just takin the piss outta ya!

But really, I use my snooker stroke and stance when I just started playing pool a few months ago. I get some very bizarre looks from American and Canadian players, but I also hear many compliments on the laser smoothness and straightness of cue delivery (think of Steve Davis and Terry Griffiths sort of technique). I also use Stephen Hendry's grip and hold the cue at the bottom of the butt, which also appears to be a no-no in pool and I have been criticised for it in public (:confused: like really guys?? come on).... The only issue is that pool tables are very low, so I must slightly adjust me stance to maintain the four contact points.

P.S.: I also ditch the absurd rake/moosehead and use the brass cross rest :wink:
 
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Haven't heard of a "piston stroke" before and don't really know what it is, but by the comments I'm going to assume that it's dropping the elbow on the backswing?? If so then that is purely done to keep the cue on a level plane. This is nessecary more for snooker players because they hold the cue closer to the butt (in general).
 
The Renfro said:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html

Click the link. It's there in black and white under acceleration. I am not saying you have more or better acceleration with a piston I am saying that it is still accelerating at contact.

This continued acceleration thru contact likely makes it not as consistent as the pendulum so it requires more time on the table to stay in stroke. I haven't had the time lately so I was looking for some benchmarks to help build a new preshot routine and I think the chest contact point may be worth the time to try and incorporate.
Click to expand...



I'm with Ratta on this one. I like to set my pendulum stroke to still be accelerating at the time of contact.

Either a Piston or Pendulum, at contact the cue actually slows down to maybe 50% of it's initial velocity.

What I'm looking for is the simpilist way to have a: Repeatable & Dependable stroke that I can measure after every shot.

Good thread
randyg
 
The Renfro said:
The pendulum has a window of contact close to perpendicular where there is zero acceleration and decelerates shortly after contact. The piston is still accelerating at contact so it tends to impart a little more english/juice on the ball than the pendulum. The window makes the pendulum the preferred stroke because speed control is much more consistent and repeatable at constant velocity.
Click to expand...

I think more spin and less consistent speed control has more to do with rate of acceleration than the pendulum and muscle strokes. For instance I have a muscle stroke, but a fairly low rate of acceleration. You can also break down your stroke to objectify your speed.

What did you need help with? I'm not an instructor, but I have worked with a lot of people on their strokes.
 
luckwouldhaveit,

the more muscles you need to *move* the more chances to make errors. Usualy, if you re using a pendulum-stroke, you don t need to move more than your biceps. If you are in your *Set* Position, where your forearum is vertical at 90° you are usualy in a *relaxed* Position. The *Set Position* is the Point where your tip is about 1-2 inches far away from the cueball. And now you have just to use your biceps to move your forearm downwards the elbow until your hand- your forearm, wrist and hand will just follow the natural movement god gave you (woah, what a sentence, lol). There is NO NEED to use another muscle than the biceps...if your setup is correct and standing in a relaxec position.

I often have had discussions with ppl who wanna show or better said who praying me, that they are able to reach a higher acceleration using their wrist or whatever. That s nonsense-nothing more-and further like already shown up, just another additional point for an error.

lg
Ingo
 
check out these to vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u52gKAehqo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uZCcKEJZjc

some of the things I speak about on the videos are off of the topic thread, "more elbow dropping nonsense"......which i think is one of the greatest threads ever created on the internet. Its 46 pages deep :) and some wonderful technical info throughout it. The link is to the end where shooting arts and I were discussing the diff, pro, cons and similaritys of a piston/pendulum stroke

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=174482&highlight=elbow+dropping+nonsense&page=44

hope that sheds a little more light on the subject for you.

best wishes,
-Grey Ghost
 
Ratta said:
luckwouldhaveit,

the more muscles you need to *move* the more chances to make errors. Usualy, if you re using a pendulum-stroke, you don t need to move more than your biceps. If you are in your *Set* Position, where your forearum is vertical at 90° you are usualy in a *relaxed* Position. The *Set Position* is the Point where your tip is about 1-2 inches far away from the cueball. And now you have just to use your biceps to move your forearm downwards the elbow until your hand- your forearm, wrist and hand will just follow the natural movement god gave you (woah, what a sentence, lol). There is NO NEED to use another muscle than the biceps...if your setup is correct and standing in a relaxec position.
Click to expand...

I agree with minimizing the complexity of the stroke - but I don't think the piston stroke necessarily involves more muscles. In my case, I contract only my bicep.
 
luckwouldhaveit said:
I agree with minimizing the complexity of the stroke - but I don't think the piston stroke necessarily involves more muscles. In my case, I contract only my bicep.
Click to expand...

YES YOU DO..........you can't drop the elbow without contracting other muscles besides the bicep. Its a more involved motion. Even tho those motions are not supposed to be happening till after tip contact w/cb as a whole you HAVE to use more muscles period.

Mainly the tricep/back and shoulder muscles

-Grey Ghost-
 
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