The gratuitous (and tired) "Mosconi would turn over in his grave"

[sfleinen]

Folks:

An interesting topic always brought up between "birds of a feather" (folks of all ages that have a common interest) is the difference in play between the various generations. E.g. off how a representative from generation "A" would play a situation differently than a representative of generation "B."

But one thing that I think we can all agree on, is having respect for the various generations' approach to the game. Afterall, variety is the spice of life, and my comfort and skill in performing a particular shot may not match yours.

Why am I bring this up? Easy. While Willie Mosconi is on my list of most favorite players of all time, I'm getting really tired of hearing the gratuitous (and tired) "Mosconi would be turning over in his grave" when referring to the play of today's players.

Let's consider the situation of today, versus the situation of yesteryear. In some cases, we have different tables with different rails/cushions (Diamond), but in most cases we most certainly have different cloth (worsted cloth vs. nap cloth), different balls (phenolic plastic vs. clay/ivory/polyester), different cues (LD/laminated/cored vs. plain-Jane solid maple), different tips (layered/pig-skin/different-materials/wafered/padded vs "any old piece of leather")... the list goes on. Noone can argue that yesteryear's tables play significantly differently from today's tables. There are shots that you wouldn't attempt on yesteryear's tables, that are no problem on today's tables (e.g. some of the "touch" shots possible with worsted cloth, that you wouldn't dare attempt on nap cloth). And vice-versa! (E.g. ball skidding seems to be more prevalent on today's worsted cloth than yesteryear's nap cloth.)

So when I hear an old-timer spew the gratuitous and <yawn!> tired "Mosconi would be turning over in his grave" in reference to match-play in one of today's matches, I have one of two reactions: A.) I'll retort that Mosconi would want no part of, say, a Thomas Engert or Oliver Ortmann on today's equipment (which usually results in a raised eyebrow, "yeah, ya got a point there" head-nod from the utterer), or B.) I'll ask the utterer if he/she has even *played* straight pool. (Many times the utterer is an old 9-ball road player that drops the Mosconi name "to sound experienced and intelligent" -- as if the people in earshot "weren't even born at the period of time the utterer references" and can't therefore offer an intelligent reply.)

Am I the only one that feels this way, folks?
-Sean

P.S.: before any of the old-timers reply, please know this -- I'm in my mid-40s, and I was not only alive during Mosconi's time, but I watched him personally, and yes, he is on my list of all-time favorite players. I'm also a student of this sport, and study the styles of all players of all ages, past and present. So before engaging the fingers to the keyboard to reply in this thread, please think twice before lighting into me as being a "youngin'" that has no idea how magical Mosconi was, or that I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Mr441]

Folks:

An interesting topic always brought up between "birds of a feather" (folks of all ages that have a common interest) is the difference in play between the various generations. E.g. off how a representative from generation "A" would play a situation differently than a representative of generation "B."

But one thing that I think we can all agree on, is having respect for the various generations' approach to the game. Afterall, variety is the spice of life, and my comfort and skill in performing a particular shot may not match yours.

Why am I bring this up? Easy. While Willie Mosconi is on my list of most favorite players of all time, I'm getting really tired of hearing the gratuitous (and tired) "Mosconi would be turning over in his grave" when referring to the play of today's players.

Let's consider the situation of today, versus the situation of yesteryear. In some cases, we have different tables with different rails/cushions (Diamond), but in most cases we most certainly have different cloth (worsted cloth vs. nap cloth), different balls (phenolic plastic vs. clay/ivory/polyester), different cues (LD/laminated/cored vs. plain-Jane solid maple), different tips (layered/pig-skin/different-materials/wafered/padded vs "any old piece of leather")... the list goes on. Noone can argue that yesteryear's tables play significantly differently from today's tables. There are shots that you wouldn't attempt on yesteryear's tables, that are no problem on today's tables (e.g. some of the "touch" shots possible with worsted cloth, that you wouldn't dare attempt on nap cloth). And vice-versa! (E.g. ball skidding seems to be more prevalent on today's worsted cloth than yesteryear's nap cloth.)

So when I hear an old-timer spew the gratuitous and <yawn!> tired "Mosconi would be turning over in his grave" in reference to match-play in one of today's matches, I have one of two reactions: A.) I'll retort that Mosconi would want no part of, say, a Thomas Engert or Oliver Ortmann on today's equipment (which usually results in a raised eyebrow, "yeah, ya got a point there" head-nod from the utterer), or B.) I'll ask the utterer if he/she has even *played* straight pool. (Many times the utterer is an old 9-ball road player that drops the Mosconi name "to sound experienced and intelligent" -- as if the people in earshot "weren't even born at the period of time the utterer references" and can't therefore offer an intelligent reply.)

Am I the only one that feels this way, folks?
-Sean

P.S.: before any of the old-timers reply, please know this -- I'm in my mid-40s, and I was not only alive during Mosconi's time, but I watched him personally, and yes, he is on my list of all-time favorite players. I'm also a student of this sport, and study the styles of all players of all ages, past and present. So before engaging the fingers to the keyboard to reply in this thread, please think twice before lighting into me as being a "youngin'" that has no idea how magical Mosconi was, or that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I actually saw Mosconi play an exhibition when he was way past retirement, in the early 70's, he was at least 60 years old and even then he played as well as anyone today, running over 100 balls like it was nothing. To this day I've never seen anyone play with the kind of effortless mastery of the table that Mosconi had. If he you didn't know what Mosconi looked like and you walked into the room with other pros shooting at various tables, you would immediately know which one was Mosconi. He had that kind of presence at the table. My father and uncle saw Mosconi play many times in his prime and they insisted he was only at about 80% when I saw him in the 70's.

 

[14oneman]

P.S.: before any of the old-timers reply, please know this -- I'm in my mid-40s, and I was not only alive during Mosconi's time, but I watched him personally, and yes, he is on my list of all-time favorite players. I'm also a student of this sport, and study the styles of all players of all ages, past and present. So before engaging the fingers to the keyboard to reply in this thread, please think twice before lighting into me as being a "youngin'" that has no idea how magical Mosconi was, or that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Well, Sean, if you are in your mid 40's then you are not old enough to have seen Willie play in his prime, since he retired from pro competition in 1959.

Just something to consider.

And for the record, having been around Willie all of my life, I am fairly confident that when he was in his prime, he would give anybody from any era a run for their money, no matter what the vintage of equipment they were playing on, or the game being played.

Period.

And the only thing that I truly know that would "make Willie turn over in his grave" is the fact that they named 'The Mosconi Cup' after him, when it's 9 ball.

Willie HATED 9 ball. He told me that many times himself.

 

[sfleinen]

Well, Sean, if you are in your mid 40's then you are not old enough to have seen Willie play in his prime, since he retired from pro competition in 1959.

Just something to consider.

And for the record, having been around Willie all of my life, I am fairly confident that when he was in his prime, he would give anybody from any era a run for their money, no matter what the vintage of equipment they were playing on, or the game being played.

Period.

And the only thing that I truly know that would "make Willie turn over in his grave" is the fact that they named 'The Mosconi Cup' after him, when it's 9 ball.

Willie HATED 9 ball. He told me that many times himself.

Mike:

I'm not talking about seeing Willie in professional play. I'm talking about exhibition play, which I AM old enough for. I got to see Willie in an exhibition in the 1970s (my Dad took me to watch him play), and again in the 1980s (with some service buddies of mine).

And I agree -- that is the only thing that would make Willie turn over in his grave -- that an event is named after him, using a game which he HATED. Not only did Willie share this in private if you asked him, but watch any of the interviews given him -- he openly states that.

And let's get off this "have you seen Willie play" business. I'm talking about this notion that other players' approach to the game of straight pool -- which I'm sure you'd hear Willie himself say he'd be happy the game is "still alive" even in the face of "garbage pool" (as he called it) -- would make Willie "turn over in his grave." And the old-timers who actually believe this notion, and use it to rub into the faces of the younger generation.

That's my point.

Hope this helps clarify it,
-Sean

 

[14oneman]

I'm talking about this notion that other players' approach to the game of straight pool -- which I'm sure you'd hear Willie himself say he'd be happy the game is "still alive" even in the face of "garbage pool" (as he called it) -- would make Willie "turn over in his grave." And the old-timers who actually believe this notion, and use it to rub into the faces of the younger generation.

That's my point.

Hope this helps clarify it,
-Sean

I still don't quite understand what you're trying to say, but that's OK. LOL!!! :scratchhead:
I'm confused by "this notion that other player's approach to the game of straight pool". Are you trying to imply that old timers are saying that modern day 14.1 players approach to the game would "make Willie turn over in his grave"?

And my name is Russ, not Mike. :wink:

 

[sfleinen]

I still don't quite understand what you're trying to say, but that's OK. LOL!!! :scratchhead:
I'm confused by "this notion that other player's approach to the game of straight pool". Are you trying to imply that old timers are saying that modern day 14.1 players approach to the game would "make Willie turn over in his grave"?

And my name is Russ, not Mike. :wink:

Russ:

Sorry about that -- I confused your screenname with another member here that has a "14oneman-like" screenname.

Yes, you got it right -- I'm trying to call out the old-timers that say modern-day 14.1 players approach to the game would "make Willie turn over in his grave." And I'm calling them out for even *using* this tired old cliche -- which has no root in truth whatsoever. Willie would be happy to see that the game he loved is even still alive. I'm calling out those old-timers who may even be using this cliche to "sound important" as if just because they were alive during Mosconi's heyday (specifically towards players who may not have been), that they have reason to even use this tired old cliche, like there would be no useful response from the person it was directed towards.

Sorry if this wasn't clear. Your first post in this thread, btw, was PRECISELY what I was getting at -- the old, tired "but Sean, were you even alive during Mosconi's time?" type of response. You exemplified it perfectly, and I thank you.

-Sean

 

[14oneman]

Your first post in this thread, btw, was PRECISELY what I was getting at -- the old, tired "but Sean, were you even alive during Mosconi's time?" type of response.

Well, in my personal experiences I have never heard anyone say that today's 14.1 players would "make Willie turn over in his grave". I have heard people say that about pool in general though, meaning that 14.1 is no longer "the" game of professional pocket billiards. It has been supplanted by 9 ball, a game which Willie despised, and perhaps that's what would make him "turn over".

As far as having seen Willie play, there is a marked difference between Willie in his prime, pre-stroke, as compared to his play in retirement. Not that he wasn't still a great player, but he'd lost a little of his edge over the years, as I'm sure everyone does as they age.

Take care my friend, and run 'em all!

 

[LAlouie]

You say, Mosconi would want no part of today's players on today's equipment. I say, today's players would want no part of Mosconi on yesterday's equipment. So who's the winner in this argument? And while the "old timers" have seen both and have the expanded knowledge to understand what they have seen, you haven't seen Mosconi and don't have the knowledge of yesterday's game to make any judgement.

AND YET,,,here you be.

 

[sfleinen]

You say, Mosconi would want no part of today's players on today's equipment. I say, today's players would want no part of Mosconi on yesterday's equipment. So who's the winner in this argument? And while the "old timers" have seen both and have the expanded knowledge to understand what they have seen, you haven't seen Mosconi and don't have the knowledge of yesterday's game to make any judgement.

AND YET,,,here you be.

Ah, but here's where your "here you be..." fails. I *have* seen Mosconi play -- not matches, of coures, but exhibitions. You didn't see that in post #4?

And what's funny is that you touched upon -- grazed, if you will -- the topic of today's players and equipment vs. yesteryear's players and equipment, but completely missed the very point embedded in that topic that I was getting at. And that point is this:

"What use is it to say 'Mosconi would be turning over in his grave' in reference to today's players on today's equipment?" They just don't compare, and it's a useless comparison anyway -- THAT is my point.

Just to appease the Mosconi crowd -- this thread is in no way to bash Mosconi (he is one of my top three favorite players of all time, afterall!). Rather, it's to call out the old-timers who make this ridiculous "turning over in his grave" claim.

Does that help clarify?

-Sean

 

[lfigueroa]

Folks:

An interesting topic always brought up between "birds of a feather" (folks of all ages that have a common interest) is the difference in play between the various generations. E.g. off how a representative from generation "A" would play a situation differently than a representative of generation "B."

But one thing that I think we can all agree on, is having respect for the various generations' approach to the game. Afterall, variety is the spice of life, and my comfort and skill in performing a particular shot may not match yours.

Why am I bring this up? Easy. While Willie Mosconi is on my list of most favorite players of all time, I'm getting really tired of hearing the gratuitous (and tired) "Mosconi would be turning over in his grave" when referring to the play of today's players.

Let's consider the situation of today, versus the situation of yesteryear. In some cases, we have different tables with different rails/cushions (Diamond), but in most cases we most certainly have different cloth (worsted cloth vs. nap cloth), different balls (phenolic plastic vs. clay/ivory/polyester), different cues (LD/laminated/cored vs. plain-Jane solid maple), different tips (layered/pig-skin/different-materials/wafered/padded vs "any old piece of leather")... the list goes on. Noone can argue that yesteryear's tables play significantly differently from today's tables. There are shots that you wouldn't attempt on yesteryear's tables, that are no problem on today's tables (e.g. some of the "touch" shots possible with worsted cloth, that you wouldn't dare attempt on nap cloth). And vice-versa! (E.g. ball skidding seems to be more prevalent on today's worsted cloth than yesteryear's nap cloth.)

So when I hear an old-timer spew the gratuitous and <yawn!> tired "Mosconi would be turning over in his grave" in reference to match-play in one of today's matches, I have one of two reactions: A.) I'll retort that Mosconi would want no part of, say, a Thomas Engert or Oliver Ortmann on today's equipment (which usually results in a raised eyebrow, "yeah, ya got a point there" head-nod from the utterer), or B.) I'll ask the utterer if he/she has even *played* straight pool. (Many times the utterer is an old 9-ball road player that drops the Mosconi name "to sound experienced and intelligent" -- as if the people in earshot "weren't even born at the period of time the utterer references" and can't therefore offer an intelligent reply.)

Am I the only one that feels this way, folks?
-Sean

P.S.: before any of the old-timers reply, please know this -- I'm in my mid-40s, and I was not only alive during Mosconi's time, but I watched him personally, and yes, he is on my list of all-time favorite players. I'm also a student of this sport, and study the styles of all players of all ages, past and present. So before engaging the fingers to the keyboard to reply in this thread, please think twice before lighting into me as being a "youngin'" that has no idea how magical Mosconi was, or that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I think, maybe, the only time I've heard the saying in question was when I was in the stands for the US 14.1 Open in NY and Efren shot (and made) an up and down bank on Dallas West.

But, to your general point, my opinion is that Willie could handle any of today's players on today's equipment. Part of the reason I say that is that Willie spent a good number of years playing on every kind of equipment imaginable as he traveled, most days out of the year, from one room to another. I believe his only stipulation was that the cloth be relatively new. And so, he'd go from room to room, table to table, and -- after a two-rack warm up -- almost invariably run at least 100 balls. So I think Willie could adjusted.

I also think that the reason there is what you refer to as the difference in play amongst this generation, is because they don't understand the game and play it as well as the older generation that specialized in 14.1. It's sort of like the 9ball player that spends only some of his time playing 1pocket. Can they run 15 and out, sure. But it doesn't mean they know the game and are playing it right. Do some of the Europeans like to draw the cue ball back to the end rail and out again. Sure. But Mosconi never had to do that because 1) his position play gave him perfect break balls and 2) his knowledge of the stack was so profound that he knew a dozen different ways to go through them off of the same shot and keep running balls. Today's guys don't appear to have that knowledge.

Lastly, I think it is good to remember that it's not all about high runs, on perfect equipment, under perfect conditions, and the occasional DVD. It's consistency and a high average and the quality of your safety play on all types of equipment and under less than perfect conditions.

Mosconi is at peace in his grave. He would still beat them all.

Lou Figueroa

 

[3andstop]

I may be wrong about this, but somehow I remember either reading or hearing from one of the Accu-Stats announcers that Steve Mizerak held the highest ball per inning average ever in championship play.

Also, when I hear the phrase Willie would roll over in his grave, the first thing that comes to my mind is, if he ever found out that 9 ball was now the game of choice to determine world champions. He might not just roll over he may spin like a top.

 

[wrldpro]

mosconi

i understand Sean.At different times i hear alot of comments most notably that this or that person would beat mosconi,lassiter etc.Most of these comments are from people who have no clue about how much more seriuos the players from way back then took the game.
If mosconi and the guys back then had our equipment like simonis cloth and todays balls and all these damn laminated shafts like predator,tiger,ob1 who knows maybe mosconi would practice everyday till he ran 300 and quit instead of 200.
also btw the Mosconi is in a vault in n.j. not in a grave.I visited the site 2 years ago and also Lassiters in n.c. last year.

 

[14oneman]

I think, maybe, the only time I've heard the saying in question was when I was in the stands for the US 14.1 Open in NY and Efren shot (and made) and up and down bank on Dallas West.

But, to your general point, my opinion is that Willie could handle any of today's players on today's equipment. Part of the reason I say that is that Willie spent a good number of years playing on every kind of equipment imaginable as he traveled, most days out of the year, from one room to another. I believe his only stipulation was that the cloth be relatively new. And so, he'd go from room to room, table to table, and -- after a two-rack warm up -- almost invariably run at least 100 balls. So I think Willie could adjusted.

I also think that the reason there is what you refer to as the difference in play amongst this generation, is because they don't understand the game and play it as well as the older generation that specialized in 14.1. It's sort of like the difference the 9ball player that spends only some of his time playing 1pocket. Can they run 15 and out, sure. But it doesn't mean they know the game and are playing it right. Do some of the Europeans like to draw the cue ball back to the end rail and out again. Sure. But Mosconi never had to do that because 1) his position play gave him perfect break balls and 2) his knowledge of the stack was so profound that he knew a dozen different ways to go through them off of the same shot and keep running balls. Today's guys don't appear to have that knowledge.

Lastly, I think it is good to remember that it's not all about high runs, on perfect equipment, under perfect conditions, and the occasional DVD. It's consistency and a high average and the quality of your safety play on all types of equipment and under less than perfect conditions.

Mosconi is at peace in his grave. He would still beat them all.

Lou Figueroa

Very good points!

 

[Scott Brazier]

i understand Sean.At different times i hear alot of comments most notably that this or that person would beat mosconi,lassiter etc.Most of these comments are from people who have no clue about how much more seriuos the players from way back then took the game.
If mosconi and the guys back then had our equipment like simonis cloth and todays balls and all these damn laminated shafts like predator,tiger,ob1 who knows maybe mosconi would practice everyday till he ran 300 and quit instead of 200.
also btw the Mosconi is in a vault in n.j. not in a grave.I visited the site 2 years ago and also Lassiters in n.c. last year.

I completely agree. With today’s equipment who's to say mosconi wouldn't have run a 600, 700, or more. In my opinion mosconi would have been an even greater player with today’s equipment. Whenever I talk about mosconi and his high run, I always mention that he did it with the old clay balls. It is very difficult to perform a controlled draw with a heavy rock. With that in perspective he was a better player in the game of 14.1 than any other player, EVER.

 

[TSW]

I may be wrong about this, but somehow I remember either reading or hearing from one of the Accu-Stats announcers that Steve Mizerak held the highest ball per inning average ever in championship play.

Also, when I hear the phrase Willie would roll over in his grave, the first thing that comes to my mind is, if he ever found out that 9 ball was now the game of choice to determine world champions. He might not just roll over he may spin like a top.

Didn't Thorsten average a 50 in a tournament a few years ago? I think he ran 100+ and out in three consecutive matches.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, it's impossible to compare players across eras. Fun, but impossible. Mosconi beat all comers at the most popular game of his day. That's enough for me.

 

[lfigueroa]

I completely agree. With today’s equipment who's to say mosconi wouldn't have run a 600, 700, or more. In my opinion mosconi would have been an even greater player with today’s equipment. Whenever I talk about mosconi and his high run, I always mention that he did it with the old clay balls. It is very difficult to perform a controlled draw with a heavy rock. With that in perspective he was a better player in the game of 14.1 than any other player, EVER.

Even better, imagine this: Willie, on his own private table, with perfect cloth, perfect lighting, cleaned and polished balls, his favorite music on the stereo, no distractions, AND he has a video camera running whenever he plays

I don't know that there's a DVD that could hold some of the runs he'd put up.

Lou Figueroa

 

[stevekur1]

Even better, imagine this: Willie, on his own private table, with perfect cloth, perfect lighting, cleaned and polished balls, his favorite music on the stereo, no distractions, AND he has a video camera running whenever he plays

I don't know that there's a DVD that could hold some of the runs he'd put up.

Lou Figueroa

Tap, Tap, Tap !!!! couldnt have said it better myself !!!


-Steve

 

[DangerousDave]

Reading this thread and others like it, I'm wondering how much footage is actually out there of Mosconi in action? I'd love to see him putting some kind of run together for myself. Are there no videos available from nearer his prime?

Not in his prime and not much footage, but I came across this the other day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aZXeGzoRO8

Just a short clip about a series of matches between Mosconi and snooker champion Rex Williams, which I found interesting!

 

[Ron F]

Mosconi Would Turn Over

If you have “The Hustler And The Champ” by R.A. Dyer, turn to page 101 and start reading. If you don’t have it, it’s worth getting.

The 1941 World Championship Tournament was a true test of superiority in which 8 of the world’s top players played each other in a 32x round robin over the course of five months in New York, Newark, Philadelphia, Boston, Scranton and Syracuse.

Final won/loss records were as follows:
Mosconi 176/48
Ponzi 144/80
Caras 125/99
Procita 117/107
Lauri 109/115
Rudolph 99/125
Kelly 85/139
Irish 41/183

Smashing all other opponents in such a lengthy tournament was certainly impressive, but it doesn’t help us to understand how good Mosconi was at the time. To get a more subjective idea and to try and compare his performance to those of modern day players I’d look to his statistics for the tournament.

Mosconi ran hundreds like crazy in a performance that pool historian Charles Ursitti describes as equal to Dimaggio’s 56 game hitting streak (which occurred the same year!) and Bob Beamon’s 29 foot long jump in 1968.

Over the course of his 224 games, “Willie ran 125, 126 or 127 and out EVERY ELEVENTH GAME”.

There’s honestly no way to make a direct or fair comparison between players from straight pool’s golden era to players of today because the equipment is quite a bit different (easier today with better balls, faster cloth, etc) and because straight pool was all Mosconi, et. al. played, whereas today’s players split their time between 9 ball, 10 ball, straight pool, one pocket, etc. Giving Thorsten, Oliver, John and others the old equipment and a year or so to get used to it; they’d easily be able to compete against the historical greats of the game. Just as giving Mosconi, Ponzi or Greenleaf a Simonis-covered Diamond or Gold Crown and a set of Aramith Super Pro balls and they’d adapt just as easily. We have living proof that the transition from old equipment to new wouldn’t be that difficult in the form of Sigel, Varner, Rempe, ec. Players who played on the 80/20 felt and excelled, and then continued to excel and compete at world class level after Simonis became the standard cloth. I do believe, however, that Mosconi would be in a league of his own even today because he was so damned consistent. He rarely had bad days or bad tournaments. Just my opinion.

Ron F

 

[alstl]

I posted a "how would you play this" 14.1 scenario a while back and nobody picked the way Mosconi did it.

I think the term is over used as well.