Ten seconds are spent shuffling cards. A few seconds are spent shaking the dice. This is all in the name of randomization. Take two or three seconds to spin (randomize) a rack of balls. This is not so strange. What's the problem?
Pattern Racking
- Thread starter Paul Schofield
- Start date
i guess it just all comes down to "taste" for lack of a better word.
if you must try, i personally think there are better ways to alleviate this "problem" of pattern racking.... small pockets may be one.
but, again, i think the real problem here lies in the attitude of pool players in general..... if they dont get to the table enough, they think they have been cheated. people just need to shut up and congratulate people that play good, not cast aspersions. in other words, where are the 20 page threads on how poorly we conduct ourselves, and how to solve the problem?
if you must try, i personally think there are better ways to alleviate this "problem" of pattern racking.... small pockets may be one.
but, again, i think the real problem here lies in the attitude of pool players in general..... if they dont get to the table enough, they think they have been cheated. people just need to shut up and congratulate people that play good, not cast aspersions. in other words, where are the 20 page threads on how poorly we conduct ourselves, and how to solve the problem?
I disagree. If you want to stop pattern racking, you stop pattern racking. You don't shrink the pockets. Shrink the pockets and you still have pattern racking.
A player can randomize the balls faster than he can pattern rack. It is super quick. If pattern racking is OK then let's just come out and say everyone can do whatever they want. If it is not OK then let's just fix it. In order to stop it, there must be a process in place that guarantees a random rack.
I ran my fourth event with the "Random Racking Process" this past weekend. A 50 player, race to 7, double elimination tournament was completed comfortably in one day. Not one rack was pattern racked during the entire event. No problem. It was a piece of cake.
Last edited:
I will reword this: Is there any difference in stacking a deck of cards, loading dice, and pattern racking? Is this not just flat out cheating?
It is cheating when you are playing under rules that specifically prohibit it. But even in these cases, once the balls are racked, they will still be in a certain pattern. If the balls are truly racked randomly, the pattern will usually be different from one rack to the next; but, regardless, the balls will still be in a certain pattern in a given rack. It can sometimes be useful to know where balls in certain positions tend to go. This can help you with break strategy.
FYI, the following video presents the basics of where different balls tend to go:
For more information, see:
Regards,
Dave
Dave, any configuration of the balls in the rack is a pattern but what we are talking about and what the rules prohibit is the INTENTIONAL placement. And the World Rules are pretty clear on this, it is against the rules. I just don't see any way that someone can read the World Rule and say it is ambiguous on this point. The only set of rules that I know of that could be construed to allow it are the APA rules.
Now, the information that can be found in sources like your website and Joe Tucker's Racking Secrets about how balls in certain spots tend to break from various areas in the kitchen and with certain applied spin is very useful and is good stuff that a serious player would be well advised to know and employ when examining a rack that was placed there WITHOUT INTENT. But to INTENTIONALLY rack the balls in a particular pattern is clearly against the rules as stated by the WPA, BCA, BCAPL etc. And if purposely breaking the rules (when playing by rules that prohibit it) to gain an unfair advantage isn't cheating then I don't know what is.
Last edited:
I understand your points. However, not all tournaments use WPA or BCAPL rules; and even if they did, they might not enforce this particular rule very strictly.
Regards,
Dave
Well, I would say that most events where the game is TE 9 Ball, the rules are either World Rules or BCA rules ( which are the World Rules). It does seem more prevalent (or at least tolerated) in money match-ups, especially between seasoned players.
I'm not sure the rule is enforceable. Let's face it, proving it beyond deny-ability is pretty difficult. It is easier to prevent it such as with referee racks (usually not practical) or as Paul suggests.
At the Swanee an interesting solution was used. The Magic Rack was employed and since it eliminates slug racks (there was a spot line drawn on the table to visually confirm proper alignment) the event used the opponent racks format. Obviously an opponent could still pattern rack defensively, but it did seem eliminate offensive pattern racking.
who cares
in a game where people complain about luck playing such a big role, wouldn't pattern racking assist in eliminating some of that luck?
ie. a method for random racking is applied for two players in a match, but out of luck one player gets the 2 & 3 ball situated in places in the rack that would benefit him more times that his opponent. how fair would that be.
if anything, pattern racking should be the norm.:thumbup:
in a game where people complain about luck playing such a big role, wouldn't pattern racking assist in eliminating some of that luck?
ie. a method for random racking is applied for two players in a match, but out of luck one player gets the 2 & 3 ball situated in places in the rack that would benefit him more times that his opponent. how fair would that be.
if anything, pattern racking should be the norm.:thumbup:
I doubt the random lucky advantage one could get by racking legally would be bigger than the unfair advantage one would get over an opponent who wasn't also cheating.
Letttttt iiiiiiiiiiitttttt goooooooooooo.... This thread was dead since November...
If you want to promote your upcoming tournament go for it... I truly appreciate anyone out there who is trying to do something for pool.
If you removed your racking rules the odds are you would get the same exact turn out or maybe more... I am pretty sure players are showing up regardless of the racking rules at events around the country every weekend and I think you are making a mountain out of a mole-hill....
Rack your own -Opponent can check the rack for obvious gaps -9ball in the bottom 2 pockets don't count -Winner breaks is my preferred poison.....
Do I know what Mills or Deuel know?
Nope....
but I am learning every day........
I'm just glad that I got to type while this moron randomly racks balls. What I want to know is how Earl Strickland ran 11 racks in a row a decade ago. Surely at LEAST one of those racks was one of your 'unrunnable' racks. Or maybe you just suck too much to run out. Quitcher *****in and learn to win instead of looking for excuses for why you lost.
i'm saying that if everyone racks with the same pattern, where is the cheating?
You do not get it. You do not understand at all. That is OK though. Nothing really happens here.
Players do not attend or stay away because they like or dislike the rule. They show up because my tournaments move along very quickly and are completed in one day. That means no motel bill or extra expenses tied to staying an extra day (race to 7, 64 man, double elim). This results in more players. How am I able to do this? My racking and breaking rules put an end to all the shenanigans that goes on in the front end of each rack. It saves seconds and sometimes minutes each rack. It adds up. The racking and breaking maladies add many hours onto the length of a tournament. I won't even mention all the other negatives.
The front end of Eight, Nine, and Ten-Ball are a mess. It is all unsettled business.
Furthermore, I am entertained by the thoughts and responses in this thread. It has been pretty good. The discussion is worth continuing.
Sorry Fonz, I didn't get that from your post. But you are correct that if there was one stipulated pattern it would be equitable for both players. This has been mentioned in the past but judging by the responses there are problems with this solution. The main one is that because the nine ball rack is such that balls in certain positions tend to go to predictable areas of the table (thus pattern racking being a much bigger issue in 9 Ball than say 10 Ball), one set pattern would result in too many of the same or similar patterns game after game. This would make the game way less interesting to play or even watch.
use the magic rack
Magic rack does a better job than random racking. Somebody will always cry when another player continues to make a ball on the break and keeps running out. THAT'S NINE-BALL!
I agree with the Renfro on this one;
Rack your own (with the magic rack)-"Opponent can check the rack for obvious gaps -9ball in the bottom 2 pockets don't count -Winner breaks is my preferred poison....."
Smell the coffee, random racking is not new or better! And for the record, the top players are going to get out on every run-able rack regardless of ball position after the snap. If balls are tied up, a prolonged safety battle will ensue, now that can take time.
I applaud your zeal for the rack, however, Professionally, the door is swinging in the other direction.
Magic rack does a better job than random racking. Somebody will always cry when another player continues to make a ball on the break and keeps running out. THAT'S NINE-BALL!
I agree with the Renfro on this one;
Rack your own (with the magic rack)-"Opponent can check the rack for obvious gaps -9ball in the bottom 2 pockets don't count -Winner breaks is my preferred poison....."
Smell the coffee, random racking is not new or better! And for the record, the top players are going to get out on every run-able rack regardless of ball position after the snap. If balls are tied up, a prolonged safety battle will ensue, now that can take time.
I applaud your zeal for the rack, however, Professionally, the door is swinging in the other direction.
ahhhh, that is too true. what about playing alternate breaks with the ghost?
Actually, the idea of a "ghost" 9 Ball format intrigues me, but for a different reason, and I do not wish to derail this thread. But as it relates to pattern racking, I'm not sure I follow. What I mean is if you are talking about one set pattern where both players play the ghost and the first one to win x number of games wins the race then you still have the problem of seeing both players running very similar patterns rack after rack. If you are talking about allowing players to pattern rack however they want then you could do that now just by stipulating it as legal in the rules of the event. If you are going to allow pattern racking then it really doesn't matter if they are playing the ghost or playing each other - just say it is allowed. But if you are talking about whether or not it would be cheating if the players are playing the ghost(where pattern racking is against the rules), I don't see a difference. The player who is pattern racking against the ghost has an advantage over the player who isn't.
Last edited:
Please explain. I don't understand how the Magic Rack fixes pattern racking. The Magic Rack promotes it.