RE-CUT Fixture

LGSM3

Jake<built cues for fun
Silver Member
Unfortunately, flattered doesn't get the money back that you lose from design theft. Theft is theft, period. Nobody should feel good or flattered about it. The whole, "copying is the highest form of flattery" is some crap thieves say trying to make victims feel better about their situation. And in this cue making machinery industry, there's a LOT of "flattery" going on. Originality says a lot about a person's character. JMO


I understand your view, just trying to make a positive from a negative. I've actually had one of my designs copied from my industry on a magnitude much greater than this in the way of money. I've just had to look at it like its my contribution to the industry.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
jim is 100% right here he did come up with the idea which we took and showed to Paul mottey and he added his thoughts to the project at that point we make some up which were extremly accurate and so your right jim he did copy the idea i dont blame you for your coments on not helping or posting pictures of a new recut fixture and know offensense but the quality on these look like a high school project 100% accuracy is needed on these when doing recuts a .0001 off times 6 is not acceptable when doing this operation you get what pay for in life no matter

I don't know Lee, but 6 TENTHS off MIGHT be acceptable in ANY operation in cuemaking.
My six-jaw Bison does get down to 2 tenths but I'd survive with a tenth over half a thou I think.
 
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qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I understand your view, just trying to make a positive from a negative. I've actually had one of my designs copied from my industry on a magnitude much greater than this in the way of money. I've just had to look at it like its my contribution to the industry.

I get the point you were making & understand it's all for keeping the peace. But strip away all the BS & get to the nitty gritty and all there is left is somebody stealing somebody else's originality. We can cherries & whipped cream on top of it but it's still theft. Put lipstick on a pig......

In almost every situation like this, it's blatant theft. Unfortunately, there's not a lot that can be done about it. In a lot of cases, it costs more to pursue the wrong doers than it's worth, so they get by with it. But we can sure call them out on it & flaunt the truth so everybody sees. It may not fix the current situation but maybe deter others from following suit. Laying down & pretending to be happy about it only makes it that much more inviting for the scoundrels.
 

hangemhigh

Known Sinner
Silver Member
I get the point you were making & understand it's all for keeping the peace. But strip away all the BS & get to the nitty gritty and all there is left is somebody stealing somebody else's originality. We can cherries & whipped cream on top of it but it's still theft. Put lipstick on a pig......

In almost every situation like this, it's blatant theft. Unfortunately, there's not a lot that can be done about it. In a lot of cases, it costs more to pursue the wrong doers than it's worth, so they get by with it. But we can sure call them out on it & flaunt the truth so everybody sees. It may not fix the current situation but maybe deter others from following suit. Laying down & pretending to be happy about it only makes it that much more inviting for the scoundrels.

So you are saying the guy who has proof he did them in 1995 was ripped off by these guys who are crying about being ripped off?

QUOTE Wayne Holmes[ I can document mine with a photo of it laying on a Jan 24th, 1995 newspaper. If anyone pre-dates mine that's fine...I'd just as soon have the coffee.]QUOTE

The whole point is fellow cue makers were ignored and left to beg for a fixture. After a couple months two of us offered a solution, now you accuse us of theft?
 
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JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
So you are saying the guy who has proof he did them in 1995 was ripped off by these guys who are crying about being ripped off?

QUOTE Wayne Holmes[ I can document mine with a photo of it laying on a Jan 24th, 1995 newspaper. If anyone pre-dates mine that's fine...I'd just as soon have the coffee.]QUOTE

The whole point is fellow cue makers were ignored and left to beg for a fixture. After a couple months two of us offered a solution, now you accuse us of theft?

I made a recut fixture in my teens.
It was a handmade seat of my bike. It cut my a zz a few times.:p
j/k
I have a recut fixture made by Edwin Reyes. It's made of brass.
It's different.
I think these things have been around for ages. Just different config.
 
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LGSM3

Jake<built cues for fun
Silver Member
I don't know Lee, but 6 TENTHS off MIGHT be acceptable in ANY operation in cuemaking.
My six-jaw Bison does get down to 2 tenths but I'd survive with a tenth over half a thou I think.

speaking of theft, i see you jacked that avatar from elsewhere/Bogey:D
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
So you are saying the guy who has proof he did them in 1995 was ripped off by these guys who are crying about being ripped off?

QUOTE Wayne Holmes[ I can document mine with a photo of it laying on a Jan 24th, 1995 newspaper. If anyone pre-dates mine that's fine...I'd just as soon have the coffee.]QUOTE

The whole point is fellow cue makers were ignored and left to beg for a fixture. After a couple months two of us offered a solution, now you accuse us of theft?

My post is general, not pointing fingers. If you feel guilty & want to get defensive then it's on you, but I never once made any accusations toward you. My post was referencing what was said to Lee about his response to this thread. Regardless, my opinions are my own & i'm free as you are to voice them. Accusing YOU of theft is something you mentioned, not me. You might want to reread my post(s) and see what they reference before you go barking up my tree.

As I see it, Jim had a design of a fixture & showed it to Lee. Lee then took it upon himself to begin manufacturing them with no regard to Jim, no permission, nothing. Lee then comes in this thread to defend himself as having a superior product, disregarding the fact that he stole the idea. That's what my post was referencing. Lee sells them for a while & then dries up, and when builders begin openly asking for the product, Lee doesn't deliver & somebody else does.

If there is a product that's desired but not supplied, I see absolutely nothing wrong with somebody stepping in to fill the void. That's what apparently happened here. That's a far cry from me showing you something I invented, then you going behind my back to manufacture & market it. I think you & I both know the difference & there's no need in bickering about. There is no gray area here. If you feel what you did was wrong then you shouldn't do it. If you feel you are in the right then there's no reason for you to be looking over your shoulder and we shouldn't even be here talking about it. I saw ONE wrong doing in this scenario & I spoke my mind about it in general terms. For some reason you pulled it directly to yourself when it was never about you to begin with.
 

hangemhigh

Known Sinner
Silver Member
But strip away all the BS & get to the nitty gritty and all there is left is somebody stealing somebody else's originality.

OK, so you can lie about what you said, deny it, and it makes you feel better. I understand your guilt, and your weak attempt to backtrack from your baseless accusations. Parsing your words, trying to put an innocent spin won't work. You can speak your mind, and you can shoot off at the mouth and try and clarify later, same thing.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
OK, so you can lie about what you said, deny it, and it makes you feel better. I understand your guilt, and your weak attempt to backtrack from your baseless accusations. Parsing your words, trying to put an innocent spin won't work. You can speak your mind, and you can shoot off at the mouth and try and clarify later, same thing.

Whoa!!!! Where's this coming from? A liar? Really? Backtracking? Really? Guilt? Really? WTF can I lie about when my post is still right there for anybody to see? What the hell is wrong with you? Cold fact is that you misinterpreted my post and went all hellbent without even trying to get clarification. My post was ENTIRELY about Lee. Did you see me anywhere in this thread BEFORE Lee posted? I'm not lying about anything, nor backtracking, nor am I guilty of anything. You got defensive & asked for clarification & I gave it to you. You wanna twist things around & make them about you then go ahead. But you're clueless & looking like a jackass with this charade.

edit: You know what, Tommie? Think about this from a logical point of view. Use the basic W's. WHO was I referring to? I had quoted a response from one member who was responding to Lee, so LOGICALLY i'm talking about him. WHAT was it about? Design theft & not laying down while people screw you. WHEN? Now. WHERE? Here. WHY? Good question. Why would I be calling you out? For what reason would I have? I have a history of arguing with Lee, so it's LOGICAL that's what I was doing. But you, nothing. So WHY would I be just randomly picking at you in a forum? I wouldn't. And you should know this. You & I have dealt together before. You know what i'm about. I'm sorry if you took what I said as an attack on you. When I wrote, you were nowhere near being on my mind. Call me a liar if you feel that righteous. But you're wrong. You completely took this out of context. It was never about you. There's nothing else I can say about it.
 
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hangemhigh

Known Sinner
Silver Member
Whoa!!!! Where's this coming from? A liar? Really? Backtracking? Really? Guilt? Really? WTF can I lie about when my post is still right there for anybody to see? What the hell is wrong with you? Cold fact is that you misinterpreted my post and went all hellbent without even trying to get clarification. My post was ENTIRELY about Lee. Did you see me anywhere in this thread BEFORE Lee posted? I'm not lying about anything, nor backtracking, nor am I guilty of anything. You got defensive & asked for clarification & I gave it to you. You wanna twist things around & make them about you then go ahead. But you're clueless & looking like a jackass with this charade.

edit: You know what, Tommie? Think about this from a logical point of view. Use the basic W's. WHO was I referring to? I had quoted a response from one member who was responding to Lee, so LOGICALLY i'm talking about him. WHAT was it about? Design theft & not laying down while people screw you. WHEN? Now. WHERE? Here. WHY? Good question. Why would I be calling you out? For what reason would I have? I have a history of arguing with Lee, so it's LOGICAL that's what I was doing. But you, nothing. So WHY would I be just randomly picking at you in a forum? I wouldn't. And you should know this. You & I have dealt together before. You know what i'm about. I'm sorry if you took what I said as an attack on you. When I wrote, you were nowhere near being on my mind. Call me a liar if you feel that righteous. But you're wrong. You completely took this out of context. It was never about you. There's nothing else I can say about it.

That's cool, I know now what you meant, so everything is gonna be alright. Sometimes it takes more clarification for a hard head like me, I can't help that, it's just me.
 

rhncue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"As I see it, Jim had a design of a fixture & showed it to Lee. Lee then took it upon himself to begin manufacturing them with no regard to Jim, no permission, nothing. Lee then comes in this thread to defend himself as having a superior product, disregarding the fact that he stole the idea."

Unless I greatly misunderstood our communication, Which seems to occur quite often lately, Jim told me that he came up with the idea for those indexers and that Lee agreed to make and distribute them and Jim would receive a percentage of the selling price. I bought the first one and Jim said that he received a percentage off of it but that he received nothing from all of the future sales. So...., I would say that Lee never stole the idea, per se, but has actually just stolen the Jim's percentage. As everyone on this forum is a where of, once money crosses Lee's hand he is hard put to release it.

Dick
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
"As I see it, Jim had a design of a fixture & showed it to Lee. Lee then took it upon himself to begin manufacturing them with no regard to Jim, no permission, nothing. Lee then comes in this thread to defend himself as having a superior product, disregarding the fact that he stole the idea."

Unless I greatly misunderstood our communication, Which seems to occur quite often lately, Jim told me that he came up with the idea for those indexers and that Lee agreed to make and distribute them and Jim would receive a percentage of the selling price. I bought the first one and Jim said that he received a percentage off of it but that he received nothing from all of the future sales. So...., I would say that Lee never stole the idea, per se, but has actually just stolen the Jim's percentage. As everyone on this forum is a where of, once money crosses Lee's hand he is hard put to release it.

Dick

Thanks for the clarification, Dick.
 

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
jim is 100% right here he did come up with the idea which we took and showed to Paul mottey and he added his thoughts to the project at that point we make some up which were extremly accurate and so your right jim he did copy the idea i dont blame you for your coments on not helping or posting pictures of a new recut fixture and know offensense but the quality on these look like a high school project 100% accuracy is needed on these when doing recuts a .0001 off times 6 is not acceptable when doing this operation you get what pay for in life no matter

You really took the time to respond to this????? But you couldn't respond to all the requests you've had for these items? You fail to deliver the said product, then without actually holding one, you question the quality of someone else's product??
Dave
 
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KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
David,

Seriously, are you trying to start a war???
I haven't been one of Lee's staunchest supporters but even I find your post to be offensive. A little over-the-top I'd say.
That's not to say that you aren't entitled to your opinion, you certainly are, but to start calling someone names over this seems to be out of character for you. I've always felt that you carried yourself a little better than that.

The circumstances are what they are. Lee hasn't been in a position to offer these fixtures at a time when a lot of people were clamoring for them and someone else picked-up the ball. Big deal. That's American capitalism, supply/demand, demand/supply. Life goes on.
No one got hurt from this other than Lee for missing out on some sales.

Lee is a businessman and these fixtures may not be at the top of his priority-list.
I happen to know that he's involved in other activities at the moment and truthfully, that's about all I know on this topic.

I'd like to continue to think that this forum is about helping others with their cue building problems and sharing of information, so that we can all rise with the tide and ultimately build better cues.
Dissent is acceptable as long as it's civil.

Peace-Out Brother.
 

azhousepro

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
Dave, lets take it down a notch here. The name calling needs to stop.

Mike

You really took the time to respond to this????? But you couldn't respond to all the requests you've had for these items? You fail to deliver the said product, then without actually holding one, you question the quality of someone else's product?? Your an A$$!!! Go back to your hole that you've been in lately.
Dave
 

Wayne-Holmes

Professional Retiree
So you are saying the guy who has proof he did them in 1995 was ripped off by these guys who are crying about being ripped off?

QUOTE Wayne Holmes[ I can document mine with a photo of it laying on a Jan 24th, 1995 newspaper. If anyone pre-dates mine that's fine...I'd just as soon have the coffee.]QUOTE

The whole point is fellow cue makers were ignored and left to beg for a fixture. After a couple months two of us offered a solution, now you accuse us of theft?

Just for the record, I don't feel "ripped off" at all. If I had made my 1995 photo public and someone had copied the part then I might feel differently, but I doubt it. If I held a patent on it and it had been copied, I woulda been all over that person like white on rice.

Fact is, I shared the info with an employee of a certain cue making company and told them to use it if they wanted. Years later they did, and I'm okay with that.

The net of it is, if you don't want your work copied, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF! That can apply to techniques as well as parts/components. Sharing has it's rewards sure, but for those in business, ask yourself if it's really worth the aggravation or the loss of income, then decide. Remember though, post images on the internet and you're sharing with thousands/millions of people. Good or bad, only you can decide that...But be willing to pay the price of your own actions.
 

QMAKER

LIVE FREE OR DIE
Silver Member
Reply

David,
I'd like to continue to think that this forum is about helping others with their cue building problems and sharing of information, so that we can all rise with the tide and ultimately build better cues.
Peace-Out Brother.

That's exactly what I thought.
 

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
David,

Seriously, are you trying to start a war???
I haven't been one of Lee's staunchest supporters but even I find your post to be offensive. A little over-the-top I'd say.
That's not to say that you aren't entitled to your opinion, you certainly are, but to start calling someone names over this seems to be out of character for you. I've always felt that you carried yourself a little better than that.

The circumstances are what they are. Lee hasn't been in a position to offer these fixtures at a time when a lot of people were clamoring for them and someone else picked-up the ball. Big deal. That's American capitalism, supply/demand, demand/supply. Life goes on.
No one got hurt from this other than Lee for missing out on some sales.

Lee is a businessman and these fixtures may not be at the top of his priority-list.
I happen to know that he's involved in other activities at the moment and truthfully, that's about all I know on this topic.

I'd like to continue to think that this forum is about helping others with their cue building problems and sharing of information, so that we can all rise with the tide and ultimately build better cues.
Dissent is acceptable as long as it's civil.

Peace-Out Brother.

First, I want to apologize to Tom, the owner of this thread. Secondly, I apologize to everyone else for the name calling and overall tone of my post, it isn't my style usually. I have edited my post above. I will clarify why I responded the way I did though. I'm not really bothered by the lack of him following thru with his product. His choice, his loss. Lee is famous for dropping the ball on things like this. I do however, get really P.O.'d when a man will attack and badmouth or ridicule a person's product without even holding one or inspecting one for the sole purpose is to cripple that person's sales. I had someone do it to me last year with something and it just boils me beyond belief when people act that way. I should've thought my post through more carefully, and I apologize for not doing that.
Thanks KJ for pointing out my screwup, and sorry for offending you.
I've was following this thread originally as I was watching for feedback to see how people liked them. I'm interested in these and also the one's John was selling, and was hoping the feedback would help me choose which one I would prefer. I was quite surprised that the thread turned the way it did. I do commend John and Tom both, for handling it as well as they have, I don't think I would have been as nice about it as they have been. I wish both good luck with their sales, as I know they both are good men with good intents.
Dave
 
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