Tips for Students of CTE

Neil said:
If you are using 90/90, the shot with the 9 ball is fine. Using CTE, it should be 1/8 overlap.
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Neil, it looks to me like the 7-, 8-, and 9-balls would all be 1/8 overlap, with pivoting from the inside (left) on the 8 and 9 and from the outside (right) on the 7.

The 6-ball might be borderline between 1/8 overlap with pivoting from the outside and "B" with pivoting from the inside.

The 5-ball would surely be a "B/inside."

Do you agree, or do you see it differently?
 
AtLarge said:
Well, I think Stan is teaching pivoting from the bridge with manual CTE, so that would be a different technique, or perhaps an alternative. Is this from Spidey CTE?

Even if it isn't what's on the DVD, I'd still be interested if you can explain it clearly.
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I wouldn't take Dave's information too lightly! Stan never mentions anything about pivoting from the bridge! He defines a pivot as a strict movement of one's shoulder, upper arm and lower arm acting as a single unit in pivoting a cue to center cue ball!! I don't interpret that as pivoting from the bridge! AtLarge, do you have the DVD?
 
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Neil said:
If you are using 90/90, the shot with the 9 ball is fine. Using CTE, it should be 1/8 overlap.
Click to expand...


Sorry for my ignorance, but are we shooting the numbered balls at the A ball in this drill and not using the cue ball? or is it some type of combination drill?
 
pablocruz said:
I wouldn't take Dave's information too lightly! Stan never mentions anything about pivoting from the bridge! He defines a pivot as a strict movement of one's shoulder, upper arm and lower arm acting as a single unit in pivoting a cue to center cue ball!! I don't interpret that as pivoting from the bridge!
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I just wanted to clarify that shot arc concept. The smaller the pivot, the less it matters. The DVD is specific to 1/2 tip pivots because very little can go wrong.

CTE as a system doesn't have a pre-configured "offset," if you would. Hal specifically said the offset didn't matter (and he's right); however, additional considerations need to be made if a player chooses to offset beyond 1/2 tip (say, a 1/2 ball).

So, when releasing a DVD and making this as objective as possible without fooling around with a lot of variables - Stan chose 1/2 tip pivots so a player could see results right away.

I know this thread is for DVD-content-only, so I'll be brief. Once your tip offset increases beyond 1/2 tip, the player cannot pivot straight from the bridge as they'd pivot to the incorrect center based on shot distances. That's where pivoting along the OB plane comes in to ensure you're getting to the correct center.

I made a detour this past Sunday to Walnutport, PA to see Hal. I was warned ahead of time that his "clarity" has slipped considerably since my last visit. When I sat by his bed, he was a little foggy. But as soon as I mentioned "the aiming police," "Pat Johnson," "Bob Jewett," and other members of the gang, Hal snapped into ninja mode. In fact, I'm not sure if I ever recall Hal being so cognizant of detail in our discussion! Unreal! Sunny was elated and couldn't believe it. I told her if he ever clouds up, just tell him that Patrick Johnson is knocking CTE on AZBilliards and watch what happens (nothing like poking the tiger through the cage). LOL! (Pat -- hopefully you see the humor in that and don't mind I totally used you to get Hal back into instruction-mode)

One of the questions I snuck in was, "Hal, when you were playing -- what was your bridge length and offset?"

He replied by saying his bridge length was VERY short (about 4-5" or so) and his offset was VERY small (smaller than 1/2 tip). His goal, he explained, was to minimize the chance of "losing the trajectory" to the target after getting to center. The true target, as he explained it, was hitting the exact center of the CB (this lead into a lengthy discussion on how to do that).

Now, I want to preface that comment with the fact that Hal comes from an era where 14.1 was the game of choice. Many of us are rotation players and playing with a bridge that short would break your game. Hal's consideration was minimal CB movement.

In conclusion, smaller offsets mitigate the need to worry about pivot arcs. If you offset 1/2 ball, like me, and pivot from the bridge--- you'll never make a ball. Once you get to 1/2 tip and within, you can. See? Stan eliminated a big variable :)

Dave
 
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Champ .....I was just pokin at Dave, he is a very good friend and and is Very knowledgeable about CTE and other systems. I was hoping to get a funny reaction from him.....
 
Great thread...

I just started working with this 5 - 6 weeks ago. I actually played with some 90/90 and CTE concepts a few years ago, after speaking with Ron V and Spidey, it worked for some shots but I just couldn't make it work for normal routine shots.

Fast forward, after not playing for a year or so (taking a break, travel, busy, etc.) I started playing again, and right after found out about Stan's DVD. I watched it with anticipation and didn't get it - again. But this time, I reached out to a few forum members (Spidey, JoeyA, John B) and rewatched the DVD a few times. I didn't make sense of everything until I got to the table. And that's a key difference I think in all of these arguments, it doesn't really make sense, logically or mathematically, but once you see it at the table you realize it works!!

Like others, I was having a hard time figuring out when to use which sight line and pivot. Probably because it was not presented in a linear manner in the DVD (maybe intentionally). I quickly equated the A-B-C positions to "thick" or "middle" and the pivots to "inside" or "outside". I also devised the following drill, which really hit home for me:

CueTable Help



I started out shooting object ball A with cueball 1 (which should be straight one or nearly so). I realized this was a thick aim (A in this case) and outside (right) pivot. And the same for the next shot or two, depending on exact placement. Then you reach a point where you need to use the inside (left) pivot, and that holds true for the next 4 shots or so. Then you'll see that the thick aligment no longer makes the ball, or does just barely, and you switch to the middle (B) alignment and opposite (outside, or right in this case) pivot. That works for a small degree angle of shots, then you are back to the more conventional inside or left pivot. And for me, that worked almost out to CB 12 or so, that's when I needed to use the 1/8 alignment.

For me, this cemented how the alignments and pivots worked and that they did progress in a linear manner (thick/outside, thick/inside, middle/outside, middle/inside, 1/8/outside, 1/8/inside). It's amazing how most shots are going to be obviously thick (A/C) or middle (B), and how most of the pivots are going to be inside, with the exception of almost straight shots and very small angles in between the A/C and B or B and 1/8 alignments. Most of the time I realize that if I'm cutting the ball to the left, my pivot will also be a left (inside) pivot, and vice-versa, and I realize pretty quickly to change that if I'm almost straight on the shot. It's those in between shots, which really only occupy a few degrees in the range of shots, that I'm trying to work on recognizing so I know when to try another alignment and trust what I'm seeing.

In addition to those few transitional type shots, I've been working on soldifying the consistency of my Pro One pivots and my accuracy with shots that are longer distances, since some adjustments are needed and you just have to be that much more precise with everything. At this point I would say 90% of the shots I'm missing are because I don't trust my alignment and steer the cue ball like I used to, am using english and don't adjust properly, or just make a bad stroke. I'm missing very few shots because of an improperly selected alignment, and after just a few weeks of working with this I couldn't be more pleased with the improvement in my overall shotmaking.

Scott


PS. It sure seems as if the transition points occur at or around 15 degrees, 30 degrees, and 45 degrees, although I'm still trying to verify if that's true. Also would make sense from a system perspective. I used the other Cuetable aiming version and it seems to match. Can anyone else verify this?
 
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pablocruz said:
I wouldn't take Dave's information too lightly! Stan never mentions anything about pivoting from the bridge! He defines a pivot as a strict movement of one's shoulder, upper arm and lower arm acting as a single unit in pivoting a cue to center cue ball!! I don't interpret that as pivoting from the bridge! AtLarge, do you have the DVD?
Click to expand...

Yes, I own the DVD.

Based on the clarification from Dave Segal in post #26, I think we can agree that the pivot with a 1/2-tip offset for Stan's CTE (manual, on-the-table pivoting) can be from the bridge, not from farther back as when one offsets by 1/2 ball instead of 1/2 tip.
 
Redneck Jim said:
1 On the DVD, stan refers to "Aim Points" of A, B, & C. This causes some confusion for some of us. The first week,
I assumed that Aim Points were to aim at. Sounds logical, but it's not the case.
I now think of A, B, & C as Reference Points or Secondary Alignment Points.
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Yes! I've been harping on that for quite some time now. I've been calling them "alignment points", but I think your "reference points" idea is better. "Alignment points" could be taken as meaning "cue alignment".
 
jwpretd said:
Yes! I've been harping on that for quite some time now. I've been calling them "alignment points", but I think your "reference points" idea is better. "Alignment points" could be taken as meaning "cue alignment".
Click to expand...

Cha Ching! 'Reference points' is good. 'Aiming points' is bad. :) Deja Vu.

Best,
Mike
 
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Thanks for the visit and

SpiderWebComm said:
I just wanted to clarify that shot arc concept. The smaller the pivot, the less it matters. The DVD is specific to 1/2 tip pivots because very little can go wrong.

CTE as a system doesn't have a pre-configured "offset," if you would. Hal specifically said the offset didn't matter (and he's right); however, additional considerations need to be made if a player chooses to offset beyond 1/2 tip (say, a 1/2 ball).

So, when releasing a DVD and making this as objective as possible without fooling around with a lot of variables - Stan chose 1/2 tip pivots so a player could see results right away.

I know this thread is for DVD-content-only, so I'll be brief. Once your tip offset increases beyond 1/2 tip, the player cannot pivot straight from the bridge as they'd pivot to the incorrect center based on shot distances. That's where pivoting along the OB plane comes in to ensure you're getting to the correct center.

I made a detour this past Sunday to Walnutport, PA to see Hal. I was warned ahead of time that his "clarity" has slipped considerably since my last visit. When I sat by his bed, he was a little foggy. But as soon as I mentioned "the aiming police," "Pat Johnson," "Bob Jewett," and other members of the gang, Hal snapped into ninja mode. In fact, I'm not sure if I ever recall Hal being so cognizant of detail in our discussion! Unreal! Sunny was elated and couldn't believe it. I told her if he ever clouds up, just tell him that Patrick Johnson is knocking CTE on AZBilliards and watch what happens (nothing like poking the tiger through the cage). LOL! (Pat -- hopefully you see the humor in that and don't mind I totally used you to get Hal back into instruction-mode)

One of the questions I snuck in was, "Hal, when you were playing -- what was your bridge length and offset?"

He replied by saying his bridge length was VERY short (about 4-5" or so) and his offset was VERY small (smaller than 1/2 tip). His goal, he explained, was to minimize the chance of "losing the trajectory" to the target after getting to center. The true target, as he explained it, was hitting the exact center of the CB (this lead into a lengthy discussion on how to do that).

Now, I want to preface that comment with the fact that Hal comes from an era where 14.1 was the game of choice. Many of us are rotation players and playing with a bridge that short would break your game. Hal's consideration was minimal CB movement.

In conclusion, smaller offsets mitigate the need to worry about pivot arcs. If you offset 1/2 ball, like me, and pivot from the bridge--- you'll never make a ball. Once you get to 1/2 tip and within, you can. See? Stan eliminated a big variable :)

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave-

Thanks for the Hal health update.
 
DrGonzo said:
How does CTE work when using english. I don't remember this subject being discussed in the dvd in the CTE section. There was a short segment on english in the pro one section, but with the whole purpose of the CTE pivot to get you back to center cb, wouldn't adding english change the pivot and thus the aim point?
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This still confuses me, and I think a lot of other people, who are new to CTE.
 
Surprisingly it doesn't. If you apply back hand english for shots, once you find the correct alignment you can move your tip position etc. to apply english and be fine, assuming you know your cue's pivot point etc. To me, the BHE pivot is different than the CTE pivot - for CTE, I'm moving the tip and my alignment, for BHE I'm just swiveling the cue while keeping my alignment steady. Almost looks like you are delivering a glancing blow to the cue ball. I never used to use BHE, still don't that much, but when I do it's solid.

For me at least, BHE only works when hitting the ball a certain distance or speed, if I'm hitting the ball slower then over a certain distance than I still adjust for english for feel. But that's just me, and the way I've always done it over the years, so it's easy to revert back to that. In that case, I will still use CTE/Pro One to confirm my initial aim and then make tiny adjustments from there.

If you watch Bustamante shoot (and I have in person), he uses some sort of CTE but is different than most where he always lines up lower left on the cue ball and pivots left to right, Dave (Spiderwebcomm) has mentioned doing something similar. However, Busta changes direction on the fly on his last stroke, and seems to be able to come through the cue ball with left, right, or pretty much anything he wants all from the same starting position. So with practice I think it is possible to use the system and adjust for english fairly seamlessly.

For me, one extra advantage of this is that I'm more focused on center ball, much more so than I used to be (since I had a Filipino-style game without the Filipino talent...), and I find using a slight amount of english or no english at all (with no adjustment needed) is getting the job done more consistently and without the spikes I used to have in my game when my feel would be off, or I wouldn't play consistently, etc.

Good luck, happy to help with more questions as I'm sure several others more versed in this than me are as well.
Scott
 
I'm late to the party, but just purchased Stan's dvd last week.

Right now, I'm strictly focusing on using manual CTE at what point should I consider transitioning over to using the PRO1 stuff?

Had to watch the video a couple times (just the beginning CTE stuff) and read a couple good posts that kinda gave me the "aha" moment where it started to make sense.

I can see it'll take a little bit more practice to actually get which way I should pivot on any given shot. At least at this time, if I set up for a left pivot and get down on the shot and it doesn't "feel" correct then I'll get back up and reset for a right pivot. Guess this is the only way to really figure out what works or not (at least for myself).
 
I had that same "aha" moment after working with it for a session or two and getting some questions answered as well.

I started messing with the Pro One pivots on my third practice session I think, and just took to them better than I anticipated. I shot the reference shots 1 and 2 10 times each, you could do more depending on playing ability, and I keep shooting 5 in each side every time I play. I also shoot reference shots 3 and 4 a few times each in both directions, doing these exercises each time for me really solidifies the feel and motion of the Pro One pivot. Don't be afraid to go back and forth for a while until the Pro One feels natural.

As another opinion, JoeyA here on the forum (who also helped answer some of my questions) advocated practicing purely manual pivots for a certain amount of time, say a month or so, to really ingrain those before starting with Pro One. Can't fault that logic either. I asked Stan about it, to make sure I wasn't skipping ahead, and he said if the Pro One felt natural then don't wait to use it as long as you understand the manual method as well.

As for pivots, I had the same issue. I finally realized that for most normal shots the pivot is inside-out (away from the cut angle), so when I approach a shot I can usually see pretty accurately whether I need to align to the A/C points or the B point, and then unless the shot is straight or almost straight the pivot is typically in the same direction as the cut. So when cutting the ball to the left, you will typically use a left pivot (setting up left and pivoting to center, away from the pocket, or "inside"), unless the shot is say within 10 degrees or so, then you will have to pivot the other way. There is a fine line there where the aim point or pivot changes at certain small ranges of angles, say 5 degrees or so between straight/normal and A / B / 1/8 points, but practice and learning to trust the shots quickly will tell you that you need to line up differently.

I would say right now, after 8 - 10 practice sessions of a few hours each (and playing mixed in), of the shots I miss probably 70% are because I made a bad stroke or steered the ball because the alignment didn't look right, 25% I realize I didn't take enough care sighting the shot, and 5% I picked the wrong alignment. But overall I'm still pocketing balls probably 20% - 30% better than I was before, and that's only after a few weeks.

Hope this helps.
Scott
 
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