I too don't like watching a chess match either, only because I only know which direction they move, not the reasoning behind it.
Pool has a "FATAL FLAW"
- Thread starter Paul Schofield
- Start date
I too don't like watching a chess match either, only because I only know which direction they move, not the reasoning behind it.
I will try again. I want to put a positive spin on this thing.
Our sport should be able to compete with any of them. Pool is great. Yet after 150 years of throwing everything at it, pool is nowhere in 2011. There comes a point where you look at all that has been done to promote the game, you realize that it is not from a lack of effort. Tell me a new idea of how pool needs to be promoted and I will tell when and where it has already been done.
I am saying that it is time to look inward. Look at our structure. It is not time for more promoting. We have done that. Maybe our product is flawed. Maybe we are promoting a flawed product and as a result, are repeatedly ignored by the public.
I think it is time to look at the structure of all the other successful sports and take some lessons. I am not talking about the business of sports. I am talking about how the games are played.
Our sport should be able to compete with any of them. Pool is great. Yet after 150 years of throwing everything at it, pool is nowhere in 2011. There comes a point where you look at all that has been done to promote the game, you realize that it is not from a lack of effort. Tell me a new idea of how pool needs to be promoted and I will tell when and where it has already been done.
I am saying that it is time to look inward. Look at our structure. It is not time for more promoting. We have done that. Maybe our product is flawed. Maybe we are promoting a flawed product and as a result, are repeatedly ignored by the public.
I think it is time to look at the structure of all the other successful sports and take some lessons. I am not talking about the business of sports. I am talking about how the games are played.
The investors, organizers and room owners have been talking and telling people about what needs to be done, and things haven't sustained any growth for longer than a few years. One person said everyone is in survival mode.
The only approach that hasn't been tried is the bottom up approach. Find out what players think should be done and try it their way.
With this approach, if I wanted to make pool look like the rest of the successful sports, I would change the most obvious thing first. Even though I am a pool player and I feel differently, I would get rid of the called ball in every game. No sport calls anything. In a football huddle, a play is called, but anything can happen and anything does. Just get the ball over the goal line. All the sports are like this. Teams have a strategy and a plan but they don't have to call it and stick to it. It is successful for them. Why not us?
If for no other reason than "they are successful and we are not" I would toss the called ball.
Against my better judgement.....
I typically stay out of these type conversations (plus I rarely have time to join in), but I feel compelled on this one.
As to the game (or games) of pool, I find very little fault in any of them, with the only real exception being winner-breaks 9 ball. Alternating breaks cures that inequity in my view. I've competed in numerous "successful" sports, but find pool the most rewarding of all. To me, tennis is the major sport most similar to pool. The serve is the equivalent of the break; both are played in sets; both sports require a high degree of skill and training to be successful; and tennis has had it's ups and downs like pool. Tennis pros made a very meager living until the mid 70's and got very little television exposure.
The primary characteristic of all successful sports has little to do with the rules, the time and skill required to participate, or a player's lack of opportunity to influence the outcome. The one thing required for a sport's success is MONEY. Millions of Americans would be in the pool halls if the pros were making the huge salaries of other athletes, were on network TV 3 times a week, and SVB's face was on the Wheaties box. I personally find NASCAR boring; they all essentially drive the same car (with different sponsor graphics) and drive around a track to the left for a couple hours. But, it's hugely successful. Why? MONEY (and rednecks drinking Busch beer, but I digress...). NASCAR has the support of automakers that have very deep pockets. There are numerous other sponsors dumping piles of cash in it now, but they wouldn't be there if not for NASCAR's vast exposure which is a by-product of automaker support.
Pool needs corporate sponsorship with serious resources, preferably with related product lines (Hello, Brunswick??) I'm not sure I will ever see that happen, but to be taken seriously and attract new fans, new participants, and new sponsorship, the U.S. Open champion really needs to pull down more than a 2nd round loser on the Seniors golf tour.
I typically stay out of these type conversations (plus I rarely have time to join in), but I feel compelled on this one.
As to the game (or games) of pool, I find very little fault in any of them, with the only real exception being winner-breaks 9 ball. Alternating breaks cures that inequity in my view. I've competed in numerous "successful" sports, but find pool the most rewarding of all. To me, tennis is the major sport most similar to pool. The serve is the equivalent of the break; both are played in sets; both sports require a high degree of skill and training to be successful; and tennis has had it's ups and downs like pool. Tennis pros made a very meager living until the mid 70's and got very little television exposure.
The primary characteristic of all successful sports has little to do with the rules, the time and skill required to participate, or a player's lack of opportunity to influence the outcome. The one thing required for a sport's success is MONEY. Millions of Americans would be in the pool halls if the pros were making the huge salaries of other athletes, were on network TV 3 times a week, and SVB's face was on the Wheaties box. I personally find NASCAR boring; they all essentially drive the same car (with different sponsor graphics) and drive around a track to the left for a couple hours. But, it's hugely successful. Why? MONEY (and rednecks drinking Busch beer, but I digress...). NASCAR has the support of automakers that have very deep pockets. There are numerous other sponsors dumping piles of cash in it now, but they wouldn't be there if not for NASCAR's vast exposure which is a by-product of automaker support.
Pool needs corporate sponsorship with serious resources, preferably with related product lines (Hello, Brunswick??) I'm not sure I will ever see that happen, but to be taken seriously and attract new fans, new participants, and new sponsorship, the U.S. Open champion really needs to pull down more than a 2nd round loser on the Seniors golf tour.
pool is slow and boring to watch. you cant change that. it isnt a good tv sport. it did okay way back when there was only a few channels on the tube. and when on a rainy day there wasnt much else to do but go to the pool room..
there are more fun things to do in todays world and it s easy to get to them and people have the money.
as far as one player doing all the shooting, one pocket solves that and that is where much of the gambling action is.
pool is like tennis. it is hard to win if you are the inferior player. so unless spots are involved, the outcome is predetermined.
there are more fun things to do in todays world and it s easy to get to them and people have the money.
as far as one player doing all the shooting, one pocket solves that and that is where much of the gambling action is.
pool is like tennis. it is hard to win if you are the inferior player. so unless spots are involved, the outcome is predetermined.
Thank you for your comments. I respectfully disagree. I think the success that you describe comes incramentally from the bottom up, rather than from the top down, as you suggest. If the structure is right, the game is fun. If the game is fun, people become interested and highly charged. If people become highly charged, their enthusism infects other people. If enough people become involved, potential sponsors take notice. Potential sponsors evaluate the demographic, size of the charged pool, and potenial. Product identity becomes important. If a sponsor sees potential, the sponsor will couple with the sport to move their product. The sport and the product move forward in tandum. As product moves and the sports popularity grows, so does the sponsorship money.
Golf and Nascar did not become rich and popular instantaniously because a sponsor stepped in. Just the opposite. It was an incramental process.
Pool has to be right. Its current state suggests that it is not.
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Look at all the sentences you started with the word IF. It goes to show you how long an uphill road your on. Maha's post pretty much gave us a simplified version of why pool is not going to be a successful sport (at least as far as professional money winnings go). It's boring to watch. I take a nap on most days. You know what programming I pull up on my DVR to watch to transition me to sleep? Yep, pool matches. Puts me out every time. There isn't a game currently played that can change the fact that it's boring to watch, and I doubt that one can come up with one to make things better.
Someone said that pool needs a corporate sponsor with DEEP pockets to save it. It might make a difference for a brief period, but it ain't gonna save it.
Everybody talks about it but nobody can do a damn thing for it. It ain't gonna get fixed, at least not to the pros/room owners satisfaction. Not in my lifetime anyway.
I will close with this: There's a buttload of people in America/worldwide playing pool. It is still one of the top participation sports played not only here in the States, but abroad as well. Is there REALLY anything WRONG with pool??? I don't think so.
Why do people always think success depends on how much MONEY is made? Obviously pool is successful without big payouts, judging by how many people worldwide are playing it. And......"if everybody's doing it....."
Maniac (not Vince :grin
Look at all the sentences you started with the word IF. It goes to show you how long an uphill road your on. (not Vince :grin
I do not think it is a long uphill battle. I am saying that IF the game is right, everything else falls into place.
Contemplate changing the structure of our game to be in line with other successful sports.
I know you find this hard to believe from what you see around you, but the business of pool is in big trouble. Status quo is a killer.
Look at all the sentences you started with the word IF. It goes to show you how long an uphill road your on. Maha's post pretty much gave us a simplified version of why pool is not going to be a successful sport (at least as far as professional money winnings go). It's boring to watch. I take a nap on most days. You know what programming I pull up on my DVR to watch to transition me to sleep? Yep, pool matches. Puts me out every time. There isn't a game currently played that can change the fact that it's boring to watch, and I doubt that one can come up with one to make things better.
Someone said that pool needs a corporate sponsor with DEEP pockets to save it. It might make a difference for a brief period, but it ain't gonna save it.
Everybody talks about it but nobody can do a damn thing for it. It ain't gonna get fixed, at least not to the pros/room owners satisfaction. Not in my lifetime anyway.
I will close with this: There's a buttload of people in America/worldwide playing pool. It is still one of the top participation sports played not only here in the States, but abroad as well. Is there REALLY anything WRONG with pool??? I don't think so.
Why do people always think success depends on how much MONEY is made? Obviously pool is successful without big payouts, judging by how many people worldwide are playing it. And......"if everybody's doing it....."
Maniac (not Vince :grin
Pool is terrifically successful as a participant sport. It's just not as a professional sport. I just personally think the best players in the world should make a nice living. Some of those guys can't even afford the travel expenses to attend all the major tournaments, particularly if they're overseas. The prize money for pro tournaments is pathetic. I'm a corporate banker, and I can tell you from experience that decent corporate sponsors ante up BIG bucks for exposure and association with more popular (and prestigious) sports. Half a million and more is nothing for these organizations to shell out. Plus, these types of sponsors and the money they contribute dictate that their events get managed in a professional manner. They'd also put an end to the often horrible appearance and behavior of some of the tour regulars.
The "bottom up" approach won't work in pool because of the venues and the demographics of those that participate in it. Face it, most pool tables are located in bars or old, worn-out pool halls that are packed with gambling-addicted hustlers and patrons that drink excessively. Corporate America isn't interested in marketing to that demographic. Things would be much different if every private country club had 10 or more Gold Crowns along with the tennis courts and golf course.
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Tossing out another idea
Since pool is flawed how about room owners be charge renters and players a professional pool tax.
The tax can then be used to promote events, the sport and reimburse players when prize money is not paid.
(Just tossing out ideas.)
To sell the idea I wouldn't call it a tax, I'd call it a membership fee. The perks of being a member is free discounts to overpriced items and a weekly email about the latest "deals."
Since pool is flawed how about room owners be charge renters and players a professional pool tax.
The tax can then be used to promote events, the sport and reimburse players when prize money is not paid.
(Just tossing out ideas.)
To sell the idea I wouldn't call it a tax, I'd call it a membership fee. The perks of being a member is free discounts to overpriced items and a weekly email about the latest "deals."
Thank you for your comments.
Boy, did you nail it. At the same time, I beg to differ with the "bottom up" approach won't work. That is how it does work. If the structure of the game is right, everything builds on that: viable and respected venues emerge along with a desirable demographic. Then and only then can pool's full potential be realized.
Which came first: a good solid sport or the deep pocketed sponsor?
I am with you. Pool is nowhere and it is not going anywhere in its current state. I say the demographic is bad because the venues are bad. The venues are bad because the game is bad. Fix the game.
I believe that it is the structure of the game that is the root of all of pool's troubles.
I would also like to further validate your remarks. When I open the Billiards Digest, I see no ads for automobiles, computors, phones, hygene products, or anything other than pool gadgets. This tells us what the corporate world thinks of our world.
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Should we put unemployment forms in it instead and ask for government welfare programs or veteran of foreign wars advertisements? Just tell them the audience and they will lend a hand.
Most people don't know what customers are looking for but if you know where the need is they will be happy to address it.
Another fatal flaw are the cold callers or the spammers, who keep trying to sell the same old snake oil for a quick rally and something to cheer about.
The only tradition pool has kept alive is that people are interested in playing it, all the other business traditions have popped and bubbled too fast to make a lasting impact on the community.
In short the fatal flaw is that people trust what business people say.
The only tradition pool has kept alive is that people are interested in playing it, all the other business traditions have popped and bubbled too fast to make a lasting impact on the community.
In short the fatal flaw is that people trust what business people say.
A couple of examples
....You might enjoy reading the book "Golf's Golden Grind," it is the story of these types of topics, in the construction of the PGA Tour, and how they managed to emerge from the late 20's to the time of Palmer's Open win in 1960, at Cherry Hills and as everyone knows, that's the birth of televised Golf.
The people who brought those things to pass in Golfdom, "KNEW," exactly what they were trying to do and had the economic pull and influence to make "their will come to pass." Pool is not so lucky, great game, no BIG MONEY upper class PATRONAGE!
....You might enjoy reading the book "Golf's Golden Grind," it is the story of these types of topics, in the construction of the PGA Tour, and how they managed to emerge from the late 20's to the time of Palmer's Open win in 1960, at Cherry Hills and as everyone knows, that's the birth of televised Golf.
The people who brought those things to pass in Golfdom, "KNEW," exactly what they were trying to do and had the economic pull and influence to make "their will come to pass." Pool is not so lucky, great game, no BIG MONEY upper class PATRONAGE!
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Thank you. I will get my hands on it and I will read it. As a matter of fact, I am very interested in it.
no BIG MONEY upper class PATRONAGE! I know I am being redundant and boring but I am going to keep pounding away at this thing... No upper class? Fix the game.
What's the beat?
Here's the thing, what's the beat to your pounding? "Is there a best game that could overcome all the problems the sport of pool has?" Maybe under the circumstances, Pool is all it ever can be. That with any type of billiard ball game, this is it. It seems like to me, public interest is always focused around personalities, in any given sport, not the game itself?
Was the concept of Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus, the construct of IMG? You might be aware, Mark McCormack, himself came to look at Earl Strickland, in person. The IMG group believed they could build interest in the Sport of Pool around Stricklands personality. In the end, though, I'm told it was the problems they encountered else where within the sport over money (long term deals they wanted to make in management contracts and commitments from within the sport) that drove them away. I believe that was back somewhere in about 87-89? I can assure you of this, based upon the IMG track record, had there involvement taken place, no matter how big of a percentage they would have taken, even if it looked like every penny went off the table in the deal, the revenue they would have created in the outside world, would have made more for everyone in this sport, than could have been generated by any other means.
The problem is, that opportunity passed and very few were involved in the decisions that said, adios to IMG. I'm hard pressed in this day and age, to believe we'll see anything like that again, unless another personality, the likes of a Strickland rises up, and wins like he did then, breaking all the records and dominating this dying sport and catching the public's eye in some form of video broadcasting or another.
I'll bet pool will still survive, even this Fatal Flaw with the games, and this, it's latest form of demise. I really do think pocket billiards is a great game in all it's many forms, the nature of the game itself is just too, complicated to be really popular, IMHO! However, once you've had a few bloody noses, you often learn a bit about politics and things "DO" change sometimes, around enigmatic personalities, and super-smart promoters! Like "they" say, "it ain't over till the fat lady sings."
Here's the thing, what's the beat to your pounding? "Is there a best game that could overcome all the problems the sport of pool has?" Maybe under the circumstances, Pool is all it ever can be. That with any type of billiard ball game, this is it. It seems like to me, public interest is always focused around personalities, in any given sport, not the game itself?
Was the concept of Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus, the construct of IMG? You might be aware, Mark McCormack, himself came to look at Earl Strickland, in person. The IMG group believed they could build interest in the Sport of Pool around Stricklands personality. In the end, though, I'm told it was the problems they encountered else where within the sport over money (long term deals they wanted to make in management contracts and commitments from within the sport) that drove them away. I believe that was back somewhere in about 87-89? I can assure you of this, based upon the IMG track record, had there involvement taken place, no matter how big of a percentage they would have taken, even if it looked like every penny went off the table in the deal, the revenue they would have created in the outside world, would have made more for everyone in this sport, than could have been generated by any other means.
The problem is, that opportunity passed and very few were involved in the decisions that said, adios to IMG. I'm hard pressed in this day and age, to believe we'll see anything like that again, unless another personality, the likes of a Strickland rises up, and wins like he did then, breaking all the records and dominating this dying sport and catching the public's eye in some form of video broadcasting or another.
I'll bet pool will still survive, even this Fatal Flaw with the games, and this, it's latest form of demise. I really do think pocket billiards is a great game in all it's many forms, the nature of the game itself is just too, complicated to be really popular, IMHO! However, once you've had a few bloody noses, you often learn a bit about politics and things "DO" change sometimes, around enigmatic personalities, and super-smart promoters! Like "they" say, "it ain't over till the fat lady sings."
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You can "fix the game" all you want to, but its venues are still going to have its share of gamblers, druggies, drunks, fighters, and women strippin' down to their bras to play a match
. You aren't going to change human beings by fixing the game. What, you think you're going to clean up the sport of pocket billiards? Not likely. Pool is always going to be a recreational game. Problem is, most kids growing up don't want no part of it. Hell, go into a poolhall and round up a bunch of people 25 years old and younger and ask how many of them have ever played a game of snooker before. I bet half of them won't even know what the hell snooker is. Pool is falling down because times are a changin', and the modern day youth aren't into pool like we were when we were young. I don't know why pool is so popular in Europe and Asia. Maybe it's because the young folks there don't have the financial assets to acquire all the electronic toys the American youth have.Otterman hit the nail on the head when he said that pool is just not a professional sport. I agree with his post and I too would like to see bigger and better things happen to American pool. I just don't feel like it's going to happen in my lifetime as long as the poolhalls are patronized by people that the general public has a disdain for. Just my $.02.
Maniac
I don't think you understand. The desirable demographic needs venues to play at too. There are almost none.
I will use an analogy: Imagine a thriving dirty greasy spoon restaurant located in downtown America. Drunks eat at the place at 3 in the morning. Bums come in to get warm. The place is a cheap fix to kill the pain. A lot of coffee is sold. You know the place. There are tens of thousands of places like this across the country. In no way are these places representative of the entire restaurant industry. There are restaurants that design their interiors and menus to cater to a much more desirable demographic. These restaurants have little interest in competing or converting the clientele or management of a greasy spoon to something better.
The same is true for people who enjoy playing pool. Not only does the desirable demographic need places eat out, they also need places to recreate. They are not eating at some rodent infested downtown eatery, nor are they playing pool at some filthy rundown poolroom or some toilet bar. Leave the undesirable demographic alone. They like their places and they need to have their fun too. Don't try to clean them up! Just leave them alone.
I am saying that the structure of the game is wrong for the more desirable demographic. Fix the game. If the game was structured for a more desirable demographic, venues would emerge targeting them! Look...pool is considered a filthy, slimy game in the eyes of the public. Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe the reputation is well deserved and it is lowlife under its current structure? Maybe this is our glass ceiling?
If there was a place like mine in every town in America, pool would be in great shape. I started a thread a while back dealing with a dress code and maintaining a respectable billiard room http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=214081&highlight=schofield. That is only part of the story. The rest of the story is what was done with the game. Later for that. Right now, I am trying to articulate a convincing case to examine our game instead of wasting time and money trying to promote it in its current structure.
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Makes sense, Paul.
Roger
Roger