better tables? Verhoeven vs Gabriels?

although i have a limited experience on multiple different tables, I can give my opinion based on the tables I've played on. Of these tables (chevillotte, verhoeven, cosmos, gabriels, breton, ohlousen, and sogaard) I def like Verhoeven the best. Chevillotte is next but their rails are much more difficult to recover. The verhoeven's seem to play what i feel is the most true. They give the player the ability to stretch out angles as well as get them to go short without working very hard. This, of course, depends heavily on the mechanic's work and how old the cloth is. gabriels are short and seem to react off the rails very strangely. bretons are short, olhousen needs some work on using BILLIARD rubber instead of POOL rubber and sogaards can play well if recovered by the right mechanic but they too will play short when compared to the verhoeven and chevillotte.

The toughest part here is each player will like different equipment for different reasons. My favorite tables to play on ytd are any of the Verhoeven's at Mike Kang's place, Carom Cafe in Flushing, NY. This is by far the best place in the country to play because of the tables and atmosphere. everything is perfect. Hope this helps.
 
zensteve said:
Glen: You're kind of like the pool player that only likes playing on a 9ft pocket pool table in the sense that you don't feel that playing pool on a bar table is playing real pool, much the same way a bar table player looks at playing on a 9ft pool table...they just don't care for them much.

Me: Nope. I'm sure you may be describing some people that think that way. Not me.

Me: I'm not sure your example is analogous. Would you play snooker on a 9ft table and if so, why?

Glen: Having been all over this country and I can safely say...I've seen more 9ft straight rail billiards tables than I've seen 10ft 3C tables.

Me: Yes and you've probably seen many many 8ft tables as well. Should Diamond promote tournaments on 8ft commercial tables?
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Zen.....how many millions people would you say play 3C in this country...vs...how many millions of people in this country...play pocket pool?
 
Glen: Zen.....how many millions people would you say play 3C in this country...vs...how many millions of people in this country...play pocket pool?

Me: Bingo! Since we're dealing with a smaller group, wouldn't you want to get "it right" by getting the opinions of the professional carom players in this country before moving forward?

Or contacting the USBA or UMB for input?

I commend Diamond and yourself for wanting to build a carom table. I'm on your side!

Here's my list of the best carom tables:

1. Verhoeven
2. Verhoeven
3. Verhoeven
4. Soren Sogaard (with Artemis Grey rubber, not the red stuff)
5. Diamond ( only if Glen listens to reason )*

* just kidding
 
zensteve said:
Bingo! Since we're dealing with a smaller group, wouldn't you want to get "it right" by getting the opinions of the professional carom players in this country before moving forward?
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When you say..."get it right"...what comes to mind...is what do any "Professional Carom/Pool" players know about the design of a pool table....when they're so willing to go out and play on most of todays junk?

I look at the flaws in pool/carom tables and ask myself...what can I do to make this better....while mfg'ers ask themselves..."why should we change what we're already building"....and pool players say..."who cares about the tables, where's the MONEY?"

I know how do design a pool/carom table...to play at its very best....but zen...what would YOU change in any of the carom tables you've mentioned to make them better?

Pool/Carom tables are built by leadership....not by vote...or popular opinion;)

Glen
 
Glen; The MAIN problem with any European billiard table is the design and function of the heating systems! IMHO, what needs to be changed is the way the tables are heated, and the ability to access the system without having to remove the rails, cloth and slates, to repair any malfunctions that may occur.

Also, a more efficient method, (instead of bare coils), maybe something contained in mesh or rubber mat form. Or a forced hot air enclosed box of somekind, just spitballing here.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
http://www.mr3cushion.com
 
Glen said: Pool/Carom tables are built by leadership....not by vote...or popular opinion

Me: Please don't confuse the prepositions.
by leadership
for customers

Glen said:what would YOU change in any of the carom tables you've mentioned to make them better?

Me: I truly am agnostic when it comes to brand. The only change I would like to see is your mind. Diamond starting with a 10ft. carom table first, then the 10 ft. pool table, then the 9ft. carom table.
 
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Bill is correct. And he's been dealing with a heating system issue on a European table.

And Glen, your forced air heated slate concept makes sense. I don't know how problematic it may be. Good luck!

p.s. but remember.... 10 ft. 3C first! ( that's my mantra and I'm sticking with it )
 
zensteve said:
Bill is correct. And he's been dealing with a heating system issue on a European table.

And Glen, your forced air heated slate concept makes sense. I don't know how problematic it may be. Good luck!

p.s. but remember.... 10 ft. 3C first! ( that's my mantra and I'm sticking with it )
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I'll add your request to my christmas list:D
 
I know shit about the technical aspects of tables, so I'll just play devil's advocate and say it's a good sign if domestic companies are even thinking of making carom tables. Good to know there are guys out there giving guidance, but when was the last time a carom table rolled off an assembly line that wasn't a special order in this country?
You can F around with the logistics all day, without customers you can build a gem and there's nobody to play. Get some tables out there, let people play on them. If they haven't played before, they're not going to ***** about a diamond short.
 
realkingcobra said:
When you say..."get it right"...what comes to mind...is what do any "Professional Carom/Pool" players know about the design of a pool table....when they're so willing to go out and play on most of todays junk?

I look at the flaws in pool/carom tables and ask myself...what can I do to make this better....while mfg'ers ask themselves..."why should we change what we're already building"....and pool players say..."who cares about the tables, where's the MONEY?"

I know how do design a pool/carom table...to play at its very best....but zen...what would YOU change in any of the carom tables you've mentioned to make them better?

Pool/Carom tables are built by leadership....not by vote...or popular opinion;)

Glen
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Glen
Improvements:
One small feature that gripes me is the rail top being higher than the cushion, contributing to shaft dings.

Develop a self cleaning cloth.:wink: Lord knows the vast majority of room owners could care less about the condition of the equipment. They're the ones asking Where's the Money? Not the players.

Self cleaning balls would be nice too.

Here's where some of the push back comes from. First of all I don't enjoy or look forward to playing on public tables except for the social aspect. The public tables suck. Its not the manufacturers so much as the room management as stated above. So as far as I'm concerned, I find it laughable when a room owner claims they're trying to promote this game. Nearly all of the owners know squat about it and really don't seem to care and if they do, its too much work. There are of course notable exceptions. So when someone says they're on our side and will advance the game from an equipment standpoint we (I) question what in the heck do they know beyond building a solid consistent product that conforms to the systems. I say systems plural because there's more than the 5 system. When that manufacturer states they don't need advice and consent from professional players it throws up another flag.

A mfg. could build a table with 6" slate and precision ground rails with exact 90deg corners dozens of hydraulic levelers, inductive heating... and still come up with junk in the mind of the professional and avid player.

What farouk said is the greatest fear. "We know best and nobody will notice if our table plays a diamond short."

Don't discount the value of the professional players opinion. They may not know how to machine a rail or stretch a cloth but they do know how a table should play and they could be your best advocate. They could be your worst enemy just as easily.
 
3kushn said:
Glen
Improvements:
One small feature that gripes me is the rail top being higher than the cushion, contributing to shaft dings.

Develop a self cleaning cloth.:wink: Lord knows the vast majority of room owners could care less about the condition of the equipment. They're the ones asking Where's the Money? Not the players.

Self cleaning balls would be nice too.

Here's where some of the push back comes from. First of all I don't enjoy or look forward to playing on public tables except for the social aspect. The public tables suck. Its not the manufacturers so much as the room management as stated above. So as far as I'm concerned, I find it laughable when a room owner claims they're trying to promote this game. Nearly all of the owners know squat about it and really don't seem to care and if they do, its too much work. There are of course notable exceptions. So when someone says they're on our side and will advance the game from an equipment standpoint we (I) question what in the heck do they know beyond building a solid consistent product that conforms to the systems. I say systems plural because there's more than the 5 system. When that manufacturer states they don't need advice and consent from professional players it throws up another flag.

A mfg. could build a table with 6" slate and precision ground rails with exact 90deg corners dozens of hydraulic levelers, inductive heating... and still come up with junk in the mind of the professional and avid player.

What farouk said is the greatest fear. "We know best and nobody will notice if our table plays a diamond short."

Don't discount the value of the professional players opinion. They may not know how to machine a rail or stretch a cloth but they do know how a table should play and they could be your best advocate. They could be your worst enemy just as easily.
Click to expand...

See, that's were some of you fall short...I wasn't born yesterday..I know when new...the best carom table built should start out banking long...so it dials in to perfect as the cloth breaks in. On top of that, I"m also a table mechanic...so I know how to install the rail cloth...and bed cloth correctly. As far as how clean the cloth and balls are in a location...that's NO different than what the pocket pool players face everyday...with the exception of a few locations that really do care about their equipment. Setting the feather-strip right so that you don't rub the shaft of your cue is something that Diamond has always done...by design. But, if a local mechannic replaces the feather-strips and they're to low in height....that's not a manufacture defect....now is it?

Glen
 
Glen [realkingcobra] , as a Table Mechanic and an Insider to Diamond Table.
Question... Will Diamond Tables work with USBA as other Carom table Manufacturers, to support/promote 3C in the USA???
 
billiardshot said:
Glen [realkingcobra] , as a Table Mechanic and an Insider to Diamond Table.
Question... Will Diamond Tables work with USBA as other Carom table Manufacturers, to support/promote 3C in the USA???
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We're talking about Diamond here....do you really need to ask that question?;)
 
Glen says: See, that's were some of you fall short...I wasn't born yesterday.

Me: No one that I know is suggesting anything of the kind.

Glen says: Setting the feather-strip right so that you don't rub the shaft of your cue is something that Diamond has always done...by design. But, if a local mechannic replaces the feather-strips and they're to low in height....that's not a manufacture defect....now is it?

Me: Of course not, nor is 3kushn saying that it is. Please don't miss the gist of what 3kushn is saying. He is responding to your question "what would YOU change in any of the carom tables you've mentioned to make them better?

Might you please respond to this point he made?

" Don't discount the value of the professional players opinion. They may not know how to machine a rail or stretch a cloth but they do know how a table should play and they could be your best advocate. They could be your worst enemy just as easily."
 
Yes we talking about Diamond!!! and I know Diamond Billiards Products is on USBA sponsor section. Maybe you can give us .... not in the know... an insight how Diamond will up their support for 3C in USA???
 
I'm not trying to start a war here but its apparent you misunderstood what I was saying.
I wasn't talking about featherstrips being high. We all know that's a bone head job and not a manufacturers defect. Its laziness and lack of attention. I was talking about the top of the rail. The rail cap. The wood or laminate. The part that the sights are inlaid. Where it meets the cloth. Before the feather strip. I'm not a mechanic never claimed to be, don't know all the terms, but just trying to locate the part for you.

Guess there was no humor in the self cleaning cloth and balls. Oh well I tried to keep this light hearted. Another failure on my part.

After 4 years on here I know who you are and have seen your work such as the East Moline Gabriel 3C table. By the way Gabriel does this feature right. Sogard, Chevillotte and Verhoeven do not. The list may be longer. Don't know that either. In fact I don't know much of anything.
 
billiardshot said: Yes we talking about Diamond!!! and I know Diamond Billiards Products is on USBA sponsor section. Maybe you can give us .... not in the know... an insight how Diamond will up their support for 3C in USA???

Me: Thanks for cutting to the chase Bob!
Glen, again we are on your side. We want Diamond to succeed. We want an American manufacture to make a table our organization can compete on. But the USBA and it's tour is 99% 3C and only plays on 10ft tables.
 
zensteve said:
billiardshot said: Yes we talking about Diamond!!! and I know Diamond Billiards Products is on USBA sponsor section. Maybe you can give us .... not in the know... an insight how Diamond will up their support for 3C in USA???

Me: Thanks for cutting to the chase Bob!
Glen, again we are on your side. We want Diamond to succeed. We want an American manufacture to make a table our organization can compete on. But the USBA and it's tour is 99% 3C and only plays on 10ft tables.
Click to expand...

I realize 10ft 3C tables are your single passion, but they're not the only billiards tables that need improved on, that's why starting with the 9ft straight rail billiards tables are so important...they are the WORST of the billiards tables on the market today...and NEED some improvement badly! I guarantee you, there is more sales in 9ft straight rail billiards tables than there is in 10ft 3C tables...because there's no competition in the 9ft's what-so-ever...and it's a natural for Diamond...as they're already building the 9ft ProAm....so it's only a rail change...not a complete build from floor up;)

Glen
 
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