Pool has a "FATAL FLAW"

Switching to the voice of Tyler Durden from Fight Club

Admittedly, there is a unique excitement and interest when a player is on a high run. Like I have said before, "everything is give and take".

Do any of you do this on a Saturday afternoon in the Fall? I flip through the stations looking for a good football game. When I happen upon two noted colleges playing and the score is 44-14 in the third quarter, I move on to something else. I try to find a game that is within a touchdown and less than 5 minutes remaining. I flip until I find a good game.

If I walk into a tournament room and the first thing I see is an 8-1 score in a race to 11, I will probably move on to another match. I am looking for a hill-hill match or at least a close one.

Sacrificing increased viable competition for high-runs does not sound like a good trade off to me.

Dude, are you really me? Perfect post, it's almost like I started another AZ identity in some kind of fugue state and posted this. Yes, I always do this. But here is the other side of the coin; I would watch Efren Reyes, Semih Sayginer, Phil Mickelson, Peyton Manning, or my other favorites play even in a losing game. We need personalities too. If we keep this thread going, this thread could potentially turn into a really great one for changing the fortunes of pool as a sport. Guys, remember Grady Seasons? Read my post about nigysob then tell me what percentage of kids would respond well to Seasons as the type opponent you'd want to play ANY game with. There are sooooooo many threads and posts on AZ about Earl and how he affects the game. I am a solution oriented person. Before a lot of tourneys begin we have the tradition of the Calcutta. Let's have a post-tourney tradition of rewarding like a "best performance" award and include a cash prize for an incentive.
 
We need personalities too.

This happens in well established, viable sports. The sport comes first and then the colorful personalities emerge. We could have such a person in our midst or delivered to us on a golden platter. What game is he going to play and where is he going to play it? This is a tough question with no good answer. We have got a lot of unsettled business.
 
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OK, we know the fatal flaw sets the stage for the “high run” and it also renders an opponent sphinx-like. Everyone has their own opinion on how good this is for pool. I have to ask. If our structure is so good, should other sports take a lesson from us? Maybe they would do better?

It has other effects that I have not brought up. Players size up their opponent and decide when is the time to go ahead and win the game. A player who can run out, will estimate that a weaker player only becomes lethal at (let’s just say) the 7-ball. As a result, the stronger player can slough-off until the 6-ball. Then it becomes time to play and because of the structure (unlimited scoring, no defense, no regular and predictable participation), he can just go ahead and win the game and nothing can stop him. This promotes all kinds of sandbagging, unsportsmanlike manipulation, and confusion. If the structure was different it would force every player to put forth their best effort throughout the game.

Example: Imagine Basketball if when a team went to the line, as long as a player made a free throw shot, he could continue to shoot until he missed. Now imagine that one team is 30% at the line and another team is 95% at the line. The 95% team could do what ever they wanted throughout the game knowing that they would only have to go to the line and they could just go ahead and put the game out of reach. They would decide when it was time to win.
 
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Determining the true champions....

I talk about this all the time. Congratulations to the national champions who won over the other team by one lucky score. But if we extended all games up to the point where the lesser team had almost no chance of winning, just to guarantee that the game is a true test of superiority, then nobody would watch. There has to be a balance. A three hour basketball game would yield the true winner but leave fans yawning. A ten minute game would be obvious luck. The best football prognosticators are barely over .500 in their predictions and it is the most popular sport to watch. You are on the right track here but there is a lot to balance. I don't like handicapping but without it you wouldn't see all this league pool that we have now. I think when we agreed about the presence of NIGYSOB in the pool scene we were really on the verge of progress. We need to find a way to purge the "gotcha" mentality so that we can get people wanting to play pool outside of just bar table leagues. Have you checked out the game pool300? I just learned of that.....
 
Guess you don't watch much motorsports. There are alot of times when a driver or riders decides its time to check out and they're gone.

They decided when it was time to win.

Speaking of motorsports, this so called fatal flaw in pool remains me way back when Ford's GT40's were kicking Ferrai's ass. They only way Ferrai ended up beating the GT40's was to convice the governing body to make the motor size illegal. That would be the 427.

This type of handicapping is always happening in motorsports. Someone works hard, totally within the rules until those that can not measure up complain and then the handicapps are handed out. Restrictor plate racing comes to mind, and don't tell me the plates are for safety.

A true fan of a sport wants to see the best, no matter who it is whereas those that are fans of the players in the sport just want to see "their" player or team win. Big difference.

I actually saw the fatal flaw recently.....it was 10 ball on a 3 1/2x7 table. That was boring....and not at all a true overall test of skill.
 
Switching to the voice of NASCAR's Ward Burton..

Guess you don't watch much motorsports. There are alot of times when a driver or riders decides its time to check out and they're gone.

They decided when it was time to win.

Speaking of motorsports, this so called fatal flaw in pool remains me way back when Ford's GT40's were kicking Ferrai's ass. They only way Ferrai ended up beating the GT40's was to convice the governing body to make the motor size illegal. That would be the 427.

This type of handicapping is always happening in motorsports. Someone works hard, totally within the rules until those that can not measure up complain and then the handicapps are handed out. Restrictor plate racing comes to mind, and don't tell me the plates are for safety.

A true fan of a sport wants to see the best, no matter who it is whereas those that are fans of the players in the sport just want to see "their" player or team win. Big difference.

I actually saw the fatal flaw recently.....it was 10 ball on a 3 1/2x7 table. That was boring....and not at all a true overall test of skill.

~Ding dang ol' Nascar (wurble durble) buncha rollin' advertisin signs need more ads on (dag nab)truck track add more cars slow down (garble farble) slow to read the ads (gurgle slurgle) restrictor plate let ya read ads (jibber jabber) unless ya sign yer name with a "x" ding dangit big ol' traffic jam to sell (freggin' fraggin') BC powders (lord 'a mercy.) Translation: Nascar is a giant circling billboard, slowed down by restrictor plates so's y'all can read 'em. Wanna make Nascar safer? If you add 3 more cars to the track then it's just one long continuous billboard without the illusion of racing. Gimme dirt track over that all day long..... multiple heats, not a traffic jam
 
Guess you don't watch much motorsports. There are alot of times when a driver or riders decides its time to check out and they're gone.

Motor sports is very INTERACTIVE. Your analogy does not apply. I am talking about the completely disengaged opponent in pool who does not even need to be there. He could be in the restroom or he could be selling hot dogs to the gallery.
 
The best way to ensure victory is to never give the other guy a shot. In pool, no one is entitled to a shot. You have NO RIGHTS. You have to earn everything. People who think they are entitled to chances at the table are weak minded.

That's how straight pool was. Some players could run to 140 - a great run by any standard, and make a mistake and lose control and watch their opponent go 150 and out. Just like that. Sitting in the chair, watching helplessly and nearly hopelessly as your opponent buries you. Shot after shot. The chances of them missing is slim. Harsh punishment for missing.

Cold. Brutal. Unforgiving.

That's the beauty of pool.

Where is Straight Pool today? Why is it gone? Why 150 years of game jumping? I don't see the beauty you describe.
 
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The reasons pool isn't popular on TV or as a spectator sport are numerous. I don't think the way it has played is one of the reasons.

I prefer that pool not be a sport where you are entitled to your turn at the table. Pool is the ultimate control game. It punishes mistakes more than anything else (except perhaps Chess). If you're sitting in the chair - it's YOUR fault. The responsibility is all yours.

Each player has the same opportunity at the lag to earn first control or to pass. Don't like getting run out? Tough. You win the lag and run the other guy out. Can't? Oh well, the other guy is better.

That's why alternate break sucks. Why give the opponent a chance? Want a chance? Earn it. Or wait until the guy at the table fails. That's the beauty of pool. No sympathy for missing, losing or anything like that. Weakness isn't subsidized by silly rules giving chances to everyone. That's new school thinking. Kind of like the crap we see these days where every kid gets an award or medal for participating. Modern society wants to see egalitarianism prevail in everything, even at the expense of competition. This destroys excellence. It hinders the best from reaching greater heights. Our civilization has always celebrated the ideal and the greatest. Pushing higher limits. Modern rules amount to handicapping and equalizing. Equality and sports don't mix.


I could care less about watching two pros each have a chance at the racks. I don't want to see that. I want to see them struggle against one another, and for each of them to try to maintain control and shut the other out. That's the beauty of pool. It's a celebration of excellence in being able to maintain table control and dominate the opponent. Alternate break kills all that. Pool then becomes like bowling where everyone gets to bowl. The interaction is lost. Darts is the same. Each player has their turn at the board. Pool is different, you interact with the results on the table. Different players play different safeties and have different abilities in escaping safeties.

I'd much rather watch a player run out a 7 pack on another than watch a 7-6 match that was on the hill. Double Hill can be exciting, but it's inferior to watching someone control the table and continue winning. That's excellence. 7-6 score most often means there were errors in the match. They were each letting one another back into it. Rarely is each exchange of control a result of control being taken away via successful safety battle. Some are errors, like misses or botched safeties. These mistakes degrade the overall match. Mistake free matches, or matches with the least errors are the greatest to watch. The ultimate match is the one where the only error was losing the LAG.


I remember watching a match between Alex Pagulayan and Rodney Morris, went something like this. Alex breaks and runs 6 racks. He messes up shape or there was a nasty cluster and plays safe. There's a safety battle - Rodney comes out on top and has control. Rodney then proceeds to win then break and run 5 after that equalizing. There was a safety battle in the last game, and Rodney (IIRC) came out on top winning the last game. Not flawless match. A couple mistakes.

But that was one of the better matches I've seen in this era of boring alternate break. Imagine that same race if it were alternate break?


BORING. zzzzzzz Like all alternate break matches. Whiners don't like winner breaks because they cry that the good breakers have an edge. Tough shit. Breaking is part of the game, and if someone is better at it - then too bad for you. You have every opportunity to learn a good break too. Any complaints about breaking is an attempt to handicap the game.

Anyway, the beauty of it is - sometimes the player in control dominates and they win 9-0 or 9-1. Or sometimes they put up a 6 pack or more and it all looks lost, but guess what? The opponent, if they earn the right at the table, has the same exact opportunity once at the table to return with their own 6 pack. And that's beautiful. If they can't and win only 1 rack, then their opponent runs the rest out - oh well. They deserve to lose and deserve to lose by that margin.

I love matches like that. Watching one player dominate and all looks lost for the guy in the chair, then the opponent gets in and strings racks together and wins or equalizes. What that does is, it makes watching the player in control more interesting - not more boring as others suggest because he/she is at the table alone for a long time. Because even though they might be on the 6th run out in a row, or on the 140th ball - they still suffer the pressure that one miss, just one miss or worse, one error whatever it may be, could result in the loss of the match. Imagine that, running racks and racks and everything is looking great - but total defeat is one mistake away. If the one player runs the other out completely without them having a chance - even better! Far better and more memorable is such a display of excellence than the excitement of a struggle made possible by repeated blunders. The best way to ensure victory is to never give the other guy a shot. In pool, no one is entitled to a shot. You have NO RIGHTS. You have to earn everything. People who think they are entitled to chances at the table are weak minded.


That's how straight pool was. Some players could run to 140 - a great run by any standard, and make a mistake and lose control and watch their opponent go 150 and out. Just like that. Sitting in the chair, watching helplessly and nearly hopelessly as your opponent buries you. Shot after shot. The chances of them missing is slim. Harsh punishment for missing.


Cold. Brutal. Unforgiving.


That's the beauty of pool.

What a great post, exactly how I perceive our game, sadly tho that's how the masses perceive us', and we must deal with them first. Until we're able to lead them too water, we'll stay where we're at and keep on drinkin' the same water till matters change. When that happens, we shouldn't educate them too quickly.:thumbup:
 
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Where is Straight Pool today? Why is it gone? Why 150 years of game jumping? I don't see the beauty you describe.



What I describe isn't about straight pool. I'm not advocating for straight pool. However, straight pool was the best representative game of those values and ideas of competition in pool. 9 ball and 8 ball can be also, just not to the same extent because of their open breaks. The open break adds a factor of luck/randomness which gives the opponent a chance they didn't earn by force.


The open break is about as much "chance" as any player should want. The thread started with an idea that each player should be able to equally show their stuff on the table. I disagree. But that's just opinion. Games like 9 ball and 8 ball are not the kind of control games that straight pool is. If you lose control of the table in straight pool - it's because of your fault. Not some luck factor in an open break. Therefore, the open break gives chances. On the other hand, someone who has a great break and a great ability to adapt to a table or read the rack will control the match with a better break. But it's not 100%. Never was, never will be. But neither is straight pool. Difference is, one is more within a player's realm of control to maintain control.


In 9 ball, there are plenty exchanges of control in most matches. Yet, too many people whine that this isn't enough and that led to the rise of things like alternate break and more. To further increase both player's interaction and opportunity with the table.


I disagree. Why should the rules or format FORCE opportunity or interaction? It's almost like handicapping to some degree. Let the exchange of control, and the rise of opportunities occur on their own. Naturally, as a result of errors by the one in control, or superior play by the one trying to assume control of the table.
 
Why should the rules or format FORCE opportunity or interaction?

Let me be clear. This is about making new players and keeping them interested. Golf and bowling make life long enthusiasts out of a large percentage of their participants. We do not have the same success. We lose way to many of our players.

I do not buy in to the notion that there is just too much other fun stuff to do. If pool cannot hold peoples attention, then it needs to be made more fun. I also do not agree that we are just not promoting enough.

I am taking a novel approach and looking inward and questioning the structure of our game.
 
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I am reminded that bar-pool is successful with its 500,000+ bar league members.

The world of bar-tables and the world of regulation-tables are two different universes. This thread is about regulation-table pool. I am NOT talking about bar-pool. A full volume could be written about how little these two universes overlap and how dissimilar they really are. I will leave that alone. Bar-table players do not venture into the regulation-table universe. Just the opposite, the regulation-table players DO venture into the bar-table universe.

Bar pool is a highly skilled and very popular amusement. Like video games and old pinball games in bars, the structure for bar-pool fits right in. It is just fine. For regulation-table pool and its games, in order for it to be considered a legitimate sport, the structure needs to be different. In order for it to have a chance, it needs to be somewhat similar to other legitimate successful sports.

IMO, bar-pool could never be considered a sport.
 
Paul, you've been fishin' now for quite some time, you seem bored or are you after the catch? Feels like your somewhat bored with the pool grind...............
 
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Bar pool is like "video games" and is not a sport, and 8-ball is for scrubs and newbies.


Wow, you're on a roll.
 
I am saying that every effort should be made to guarantee opportunities at the table. The more often both players can be brought back to the table in a way that makes sense, the more viable and entertaining the competition will be. This will also mean that matches will be much closer and the better player will actually win more often. This makes the game more palatable to everyone.

I am saying that there is not enough back and forth and no, I do not think that players get their chances. This is why we keep jumping to new games.

Well they tried ball in hand if no ball is pocketed. haven't hear much of that lately. personally, I like it!!
 
Well they tried ball in hand if no ball is pocketed. haven't hear much of that lately. personally, I like it!!

Is this a part of Grady Mathews rules for Nine-Ball? If no ball is pocketed, the next player is at the table whether he gets ball in hand or not. I am not clear on how this is related to the topic.
 
hmm, good point. since you compare to other sports...what about a pure offense vs defense situation.

Where one player MUST play defensive shots (safeties) while the other attempts to make a good hit off of their safety. I should probably copyright this before putting it out there because the more i think of it, the better it sounds.

Player A Breaks...the player on offense is the breaker (trying to pocket as many balls as he can and eliminate easy defensive play.

Immediately after the break, the defensive player takes his safety shot. The offensive player then attempts to make a good hit on the lowest # ball on the table.

Good hit = +1 point for player A
Bad hit = +1 point for player B
Pocketing the ball = +2 points for player A.

Rinse and repeat. There are a ton of opportunities to take this idea to the next level, i.e. it would force people to get better at safety plays.
It eliminates the "running" of balls.
Every shot is the other player.
Banking and kicking are renewed and not just for bank pool.

Thoughts?

Carl

Sounds like Einstein Nine, aka One Pocket Nine

http://einstein-nine.com/
 
Food for thought.

Just saw this thread and don't have time to read it all but it could be interesting to see each player come to the table and an inning would consist of:

ONE BREAK
ONE STRAIGHT IN SHOT FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE JUMP SHOT FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE CROSS BANK FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE BANK SHOT FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE KICK IN FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE KICK/BANK FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.

Each player has seven attempts. On kicks and banks, each additional rail accounts for one additional point. Each ball jumped is worth one point as well.

First player to a hundred points wins.

Just some quick thoughts off the top of my head.
 
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