Stroke Instructor Challenge

I was taking up for someone who was being slammed

Neil said:
Maybe you ought to go back and re-read page one. First off, the response you quoted wan't even to the first post, but a different question. Second, the pictures in the first post were added in 5 days after the initial post. Third, why should he have gotten paid to post that? He said himself he's not an instructor. And, just because YOU think he gave a thorough analysis, doesn't necessarily mean he did.;) The answers were provided in this thread, and you, he, and most everyone else seems to have just glossed over it. ;)
Click to expand...

I didn't gloss over anything. My point was simple. The OP was being slammed with comments that essentially said "hey, if you want our theories on stroke alignment then you go first." My point is that he did. I read his first post and he did give out his ideas. He is not putting a gun to your head to give free ideas on here. As an intelligent person he just assumed that this forum was for input from those who ARE willing to give some info on here. I guess he found out that it is also for people lurking in wait to attack. Feel free to take on a more friendly tone to my posts or just don't reply to my posts at all dude. I find most of your posts to be similarly negative and attacking. Leave me alone.
 
hunger strike said:
I didn't gloss over anything. My point was simple. The OP was being slammed with comments that essentially said "hey, if you want our theories on stroke alignment then you go first." My point is that he did. I read his first post and he did give out his ideas. He is not putting a gun to your head to give free ideas on here. As an intelligent person he just assumed that this forum was for input from those who ARE willing to give some info on here. I guess he found out that it is also for people lurking in wait to attack. Feel free to take on a more friendly tone to my posts or just don't reply to my posts at all dude. I find most of your posts to be similarly negative and attacking. Leave me alone.
Click to expand...

I answered his initial question in post #13, and I also sent him a PM. Neither was acknowledged - and I believe he made contact with me with the PM. I fail to where I sidestepped the issue.

:shrug:
 
?

Blackjack said:
I answered his initial question in post #13, and I also sent him a PM. Neither was acknowledged - and I believe he made contact with me with the PM. I fail to where I sidestepped the issue.

:shrug:
Click to expand...

Your comments on AZ are very positive and helpful, and you are obviously an articulate and knowledgable professional. I never said you sidestepped the issue or replied to your comments. My simple point is that the OP's ideas were adequately described so I do not believe he his out to get something for nothing. We can all get along if we try. Keep up the great posts sir.
 
Neil said:
The answers were provided in this thread, and you, he, and most everyone else seems to have just glossed over it. ;)
Click to expand...
Last I checked you wanted to charge for the answers.

Let's say someone countered my reasoning by saying that people have natural alignment because they cock their elbows. My response would be that you can cock your elbow and have a chickenwing, everything in the same plane, or natural alignment. In other words, you're talking about something else.

luckwouldhaveit said:
Very interesting! My 2 cents - forget changing the alignment to achieve a "new" straighter stroke. The tendency is to cram your old stroke into your new alignment. If you don't understand the different motion of the stroke you're going for, then your body will find a way to stroke the way you're used to within the new alignment and you'll wind up back at square 1.
Click to expand...
See above for my thoughts on tweaking lower body alignment to achieve upper body alignment. I approach it the other way around:
1) Find the new stroking motion
2) Align your dominant eye position with the stroking motion
3) Tailor everything else to fit the above. This includes comfort like how much you get down, if you prefer to stroke closer or farther from your body, etc.

Blackjack said:
I answered his initial question in post #13, and I also sent him a PM. Neither was acknowledged - and I believe he made contact with me with the PM. I fail to where I sidestepped the issue.
Click to expand...
Though you described your method for determining a person's alignment, you didn't specify the alignment you were trying to achieve with it - same goes for your pm.
 
Wolven said:
Leaning slightly forward as opposed to having weight on the back leg. Not sure how to explain otherwise. Ass out or bend at waist from the drawing below you would be sort of leaning towards cue without leaning. The taller the player the more it would seem like a lean, for short player there would be none. However, in order to have a solid bridge that slightly digs into the table very slight favoring of front is not a bad thing. Of course my coach likes the totally neutral center of gravity. Back leg is straight, slight bend in front. I like commitment to forward action.


............. ....!

.....\............!

........\... .....!

............\.....!

Ohh, I forgot to add. That additional change of angle that's just for demonstration purpose only for the player to see the difference. When I'm getting to shoot I don't do that, I'm already there. Thanks......
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying. Stance is tricky. Sometimes there is the illusion of leaning forward because the upper portion of your body gives that appearance, but it's the bottom part that will counter that to bring the body in balance. So, when you say 'lean' I think of the lower half, not the upper half. When referring to the upper half, I think of that as bending.

However, leaning into your bridge arm as you described, definitely sounds like leaning on your front leg and might cause you some discomfort in your shoulder over time. If you're experiencing that, you should probably rethink it. Even if it's a slight lean on the front leg, I'm still not a fan. I've experimented with that a lot. To me, it's not optimal.
 
Neil said:
Obviously, you didn't get it. I have given out a lot of free info on here. But, when someone starts out trying to insult instructors, then, if they want the answers, they can pay for them.
Click to expand...
Well Neil, to be honest, I'm just taking guesses at what you're suggesting since you won't elaborate. Again I feel like you're making a personal attack on me rather than adding to the discussion. Btw I found your explanation on elbow placement to be extremely vague and lacking in substance.

Neil said:
You act like you have just discovered a great secret to pool that not even the instructors know about. What you have done, is finally figured out a little bit of knowledge, thrown some other stuff in the equation to make it seem to get the answer you want.
Click to expand...
What do you expect me to think when you're teaching people to align in 1 plane? If you're aware of the "natural" way to align, then why are you recommending something different? Again, feel free to explain yourself in more detail.

Neil said:
The whole time, you totally dismiss the fact that the entire equation has been figured out many, many, years ago. You do have other key parts of the equation in this thread, which you have summarily dismissed because they weren't in your equation.
Click to expand...
You can add a bunch of mumbo jumbo to the equation and attempt to belittle me , but it's really not that complicated. If you'd like to discuss details around natural alignment beyond what I've described, I'd have to start charging you. That said, I think most people can take what I've written and apply it, if they have the desire.
 
Let me just say that I am an instructor, but I don't feel insulted by the OP's questions. I do feel that he has challenged me, but then, he gave me fair warning of that in the title of this thread. But that is no reason for me, or anyone else, to get all defensive.

I'm enjoying this thread because I feel like we are all going to be able to pull something useful out of it once this subject is thoroughly examined. For me, personally, it will either confirm that I already have a good method for teaching the stroke; or it will confirm that my method is weak and I will have to find a way to strengthen it.

Please teach on. :thumbup:

Roger
 
I am also very interested in hearing different opinions . I have had lessons from several different instructors and help from a couple of very good players. Of the people that have given me instruction and help their idea of alignment would be a 50-50 split in regards to what the op is saying. I would really like to understand what instructors see or use to determine why a person should align their stroke and body certain ways. It would greatly enhance my knowledge of fundamentals and whether or not I am thinking and looking at the right things.
 
I can't speak for others, but the first thing I look at is does the cue move straight forward, or does it move off line. If it's moving straight, there probably isn't a lot of work to be done on alignment. Not always, but if a student is moving the stick in a straight line, and not experiencing any physical problems, why mess with it?

Steve
 
FranCrimi said:
I understand what you're saying. Stance is tricky. Sometimes there is the illusion of leaning forward because the upper portion of your body gives that appearance, but it's the bottom part that will counter that to bring the body in balance. So, when you say 'lean' I think of the lower half, not the upper half. When referring to the upper half, I think of that as bending.

However, leaning into your bridge arm as you described, definitely sounds like leaning on your front leg and might cause you some discomfort in your shoulder over time. If you're experiencing that, you should probably rethink it. Even if it's a slight lean on the front leg, I'm still not a fan. I've experimented with that a lot. To me, it's not optimal.
Click to expand...

I did hurt my shoulder once, but that was a while back and it is fine now. Tried to reach a shot slipped a little and tried to pull myself up, it hurt for a while but went away. :) Definitely not the worst of pool injuries I have had.:D Anyway, what I'm describing is stable. If you remove your bridgehand it is not like you would loose any balance.
 
Neil said:
I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm just pointing out your ignorance.
Click to expand...
Sadly my point was that you're still just trying to discredit me.

Now about that ignorance, might this be what you were talking about?
Neil said:
There is a very good reason why those pros have their elbow pointed to their body a little. Which I'm quite sure all the instructors on here know why. You, obviously, do not.
Click to expand...
Neil, I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting to hear you explain this one. It's truly a shame that I'm unwilling to pay you :( On the upside, there's a convenient signoff option now and you can demonstrate your confidence in your opinion without giving up your valuable knowledge for free.

Neil said:
Don't expect to insult others and then find out that they are unwilling to help you.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how you got the impression that I'm looking for your help - I'm stating my opinion and challenging you to make a substantive argument against it, which you've been unable to do. Again if you have any confidence whatsoever in what you're saying, feel free to explain yourself or signoff that you won't teach natural alignment.
 
Wolven said:
I did hurt my shoulder once, but that was a while back and it is fine now. Tried to reach a shot slipped a little and tried to pull myself up, it hurt for a while but went away. :) Definitely not the worst of pool injuries I have had.:D Anyway, what I'm describing is stable. If you remove your bridgehand it is not like you would loose any balance.
Click to expand...

:D That's a different type of pool injury. Glad to hear you're still in one piece. As you know, I was referring to the type that comes from being off-balance over a period of time that eventually wears down a particular body part that is supporting more weight than it should. I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree here. I'm a huge fan of leaning back to counter the forward bend. Some top players don't even realize that they do it. I know of one top player who taught a student of mine to lean forward ( and messed up his game for awhile) but actually leans back when shooting.

Either way, that is just one factor that affects the upper body. You sound knowledgable, so I imagine you know that another huge factor is the actual placement of feet relative to the line of the shot. There are several different combinations of placement, each having an affect on the upper body and the elbow, as well as affecting the player's balance points. When I get a chance, I will study the players stances on luckwouldhaveit's photos before I agree or disagree on anything he/she said. I'm inclined to disagree that it's an optimal position for the elbow, regardless of which players shoot that way, but we'll see.....
 
Last edited:
BRKNRUN said:
I was waiting for an instructor to post something like this. I believe that this is what determines your stroke plane....I don't believe you have any control on your ultimate natural stroke plane.

I think what determines your stroke planes described in the OP is. Grip, Stance (feet), and Posture.

Change any of those three and it changes your stroke plane....

If your upper body does not "fall" into your "perceived" ideal stoke plane...the only way to change it is to change your Grip, Stance, Posture....If you try and force it....it is no longer "natural" and you will eventually have it move back to a "natural" position. (which I believe has been demonstrated by Roger's post about it always creeping back)....Based on Rogers Grip, Stance, Posture, that is where his upper body wants to be....him contorting the outcome will end up being inconsistent in the long run...(until it creeps back to its natural position)

The added problem is that it might "move back" at the worst time....right on a "key" shot and cause a wild miss.
Click to expand...

Bravo. Well said! :thumbup:

The only thing I would change in what you wrote is this line: I don't believe you have any control on your ultimate natural stroke plane.

As far as what is natural, I think that each of us has a few different combinations that we can use that would work naturally --- meaning without resistance, so I think we do have choices within a certain range.

Also, there are players who have managed to adapt to an awkward and unbalanced style of play, where their upper and lower bodies are out of sync with each other, but they work much harder than those who are in sync. Unfortunately, they probably don't realize how much harder they're working.
 
Last edited:
How do you determine what is natural? I played pool for many years, and my approach and set up was natural, as in, I just did what felt right.

I went to pool school, and learned more about moving the cue, and changed how I set up and stroke a pool shot. At first, it was not natural, but over time, I worked on it to the point where it is now natural.

Fran, you and I have done this with hundreds of students. What they come to us with is natural for them. What we try to do is help them make the improved version become natural. Bad habits can be natural...so can good habits. Which "natural" is better?

Steve
 
I have been giving free instruction for years

Neil said:
Again, go re-read the thread. As far as replying to YOUR posts, quit misquoting posts just to start a flame war. And, if you find MOST of my posts that way, you haven't read very many of my posts. Lately, I am fed up with people like you that never add anything, just want to start trouble. And, I have been pointing some of those posts out. You want me to take on a more friendly tone while you deliberately misquote someone just to make them look bad.

As to the OP's first post, he wanted instructors to answer. And, he did it in a rather insulting way. I do give him credit for at least attempting to try and figure out some things. However, when you finally figure out a piece of a 3 or 4 part equation, and don't even have a clue that there are more parts to the equation, then don't go getting on here calling out instructors to try and make it look like you know more than they do.

And, as far as the "free" comments, you should be thankful that as many instructors on here DO post free advice for this forum that people usually pay to learn. How dare you or anyone else DEMAND that we post everything we know for free! What would you say if your boss next week told you that your services were now required to be for free, and he wasn't going to pay you??
Click to expand...
again, negative, confrontational. well, years ago I was practicing in Albequerque and two teenagers said they had never seen anyone play like me and do I mind if they watch. After I ran a table for them they said hey, do you know any trick shots. I said like what. One of them said try this one, the one with a ball in the jaws of each side pocked, rock in the middle, draw off one into the other. Made it first try. The kid who played very poorly asked if I could teach him. I said "here's what I saw Efren Reyes do when he practiced his draw stroke in Olathe." I showed him, and the kid who couldn't even hit the center of the cueball before made the trick shot on the second try. I know my credentials so I don't need any to get paid. I respect those whose job it is to teach, and they should be paid well. But posting is voluntary. I didn't say anything ugly. I just don't see how the OP didn't give input first. He did. His first post is his opinion of champion players' alignment sometimes having the shoulder outside the grip and he wanted some input. I am on his side and clearly you are not. So be it. I am glad he started this interesting thread. It's not your thread.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top