Don't be so cruel Johnny T. Some of us are just not as talented as you I guess. Sounds like you need to be on the tour to me. Or better yet if you are ever going to be in the Tennessee area post on here when you are coming and I'll just meet you and we can play some. I can run 4 balls and I also play in the APA. You get on this forum and bash people for not being as talented as others but yet you claim you were born a 'C' player.. Well I'm calling your bluff because I think you let your ASS OVERLOAD YOUR MOUTH ALOT ON HERE AND THIS IS ONE OF THOSE TIMES. So if you are as good as you think you are you just let me know and we can find out!!!!!
League Players
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
These types of inflammatory comments are uncalled for on this thread and this forum. For someone who has very few posts and red reps, it is not surprising.
JohnnyT is a valuable poster on this forum. His passion, experience and knowledge of pool should be respected. Although his original post may have seemed a little derogatory to some league players, I don't believe they were intended to be incendiary. As a former league player, I tend to agree with Johnny's observations except that they should not be able to play until they can make 4 balls. I also believe this was just a figure of speech also and not meant to be taken literally.
Happy posting...now go hit some balls league players!
Very interesting post.
I wonder as Joe Sixpack watches a pro runout, he is thinking, "I can do that." But as he watches these missers, he might change his mind about how "easy" pool is (or seems to be).
Your post deserves some SERIOUS thought from those who are marketing pool to the masses.
Jeff Livingston
All I know all about this gambling crap is that a league tournament was at a local place and it was PACKED (by Persons with money who actually were spending it on the places products) AND SOME DAMN PERSON WANTED TO GAMBLE and no one wanted to....lame gamblers.. shouldn't even be called players, more like lame jobless losers.
Oh, on the a side note, the bar made a fortune and all (save the loser gambler) had a GREAT time!
What each player gets out of pool is his own choice and his own reward. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to enjoy the game. To each his own.
Jeff Livingston
Damn, beaten again!
I swear I hadn't seen this post when I made mine.
Great minds think alike.....and so do ours.
Jeff Livingston
Are you a control freak or what?
Why can't league players enjoy league play? Why do you consider that wrong?
curious.
Jeff Livingston
Talking about leagues on this forum is like talking about politics and religion in a bar.
The funny thing about comments about how leagues are full of bangers is that the pool hall without any league players is not full of A players either.
The general make up of any league is very much like the general make up of a typical pool hall. You have people who just come in to kill time and have fun, and you have people who own cues, cases and accessories but can't make a three ball run out. These people generally make up about half a pool hall's clientele and also about half of a league's players. You then have the other half of Cs, Bs and a smattering of A players and higher.
The next time you think about how leagues are chock full of horrible players take a look around your pool hall when all the tables are full of non-league players and take note of the thousands of break and runs not happening.
All players have to start somewhere and there are very very very few that are naturals at this game. Heck if they are more concerned with having a good time instead of taking the game deadly serious are you really justified in being angry about someone having a good time?
I take my own game extremely serious, but I certainly wouldn't get mad seeing someone fram a ball in 6 rails and see them smile and laugh. That's just a little too serious for me, and bordering on absolute absurdity.
The funny thing about comments about how leagues are full of bangers is that the pool hall without any league players is not full of A players either.
The general make up of any league is very much like the general make up of a typical pool hall. You have people who just come in to kill time and have fun, and you have people who own cues, cases and accessories but can't make a three ball run out. These people generally make up about half a pool hall's clientele and also about half of a league's players. You then have the other half of Cs, Bs and a smattering of A players and higher.
The next time you think about how leagues are chock full of horrible players take a look around your pool hall when all the tables are full of non-league players and take note of the thousands of break and runs not happening.
All players have to start somewhere and there are very very very few that are naturals at this game. Heck if they are more concerned with having a good time instead of taking the game deadly serious are you really justified in being angry about someone having a good time?
I take my own game extremely serious, but I certainly wouldn't get mad seeing someone fram a ball in 6 rails and see them smile and laugh. That's just a little too serious for me, and bordering on absolute absurdity.
Puff your chest out and keep telling yourself how much of a "real pool player" you are. Of course it's because you can run some balls and especially because you gamble. That makes you a real pool player?
I guess I'm kinda glad that I'm not a real pool player. I play pool, regularly. I buy food and drinks, regularly. (MUCH more profit for the room in food and drinks than there is in table time, Mister Pool Player. Why do you think the room owners like "people who play pool" like me than "pool players" like you that drink water and think that the table time you pay for pays the bills?) And I have fun, regardless of whether the "real pool players" think so little of me or not.
(Many of us try to improve, too. Not everyone is a "league night only" player.)
Back to the point. There's room in this world for everyone. Not everyone has the time to devote to becoming a "real pool player." They have jobs and families. Not everyone has to gamble to determine their manhood. (I'm not against gambling at all, I just get tired of the message that if you aren't willing to gamble, you aren't "a man" and have no guts, or ability. Gambling and ability aren't tied at the hip.) Many folks enjoy the night out and include pool in it. That shouldn't offend you, but for some reason it does. Oh yeah, that's right, because we won't gamble with you.... I forgot.
Maybe some of these league players will get the bug enough to actually want to play more often than league night, and then you'll have more marks for your gambling. That is what it's all about, right Systim6? Because it sure sounds like it from your posts.
wow !
I usually enjoy what Johnny t posts on here ,,,,,but this time it crawed my skin enough to get off my lazy butt , sign in ,,and reply to it .
Everyone starts somewhere . They might not be able to run two balls if you give them ball in hand , but NO ONE starts out running racks !
I know you were just voicing your opinion , but alot of the pool players that you refer to ,are the ones that give this sport the support that it deserves ! So why bash them ?
I usually enjoy what Johnny t posts on here ,,,,,but this time it crawed my skin enough to get off my lazy butt , sign in ,,and reply to it .
Everyone starts somewhere . They might not be able to run two balls if you give them ball in hand , but NO ONE starts out running racks !
I know you were just voicing your opinion , but alot of the pool players that you refer to ,are the ones that give this sport the support that it deserves ! So why bash them ?
The thing that makes me mad is that not everyone has the ability to pratice that often. For example, I work long hours and a lot of times come home and work in side projects. On top of that, a wife and young child. I'm lucky to make it to practice one night a week for 2 hours, then league one night a week and one tournament a month. Hard to stay in stroke like that. Truth is, it's been like this since I started playing. So I've never had that all too important stretch of time to put in work. Ive got to put in enough work and studying to learn what I've learned but I'm stil not a good player. Far from a B. Does that mean I shouldn't be able to compete? I take it serious no matter how little I get to play or practice. I play in all the tournaments I'm able, gamble when I get a fair game and try harder than most on every shot I shoot.
So when someone feels the need to put my game down, I ask them what they want to give me.
So when someone feels the need to put my game down, I ask them what they want to give me.
You really need to understand that woofing at someone over the 'net doesn't mean a damn thing. Just so much hot air.
As do most places, we have a crew of regulars that play league. Janet hosts a small handicapped 9-ball tournament on Sunday afternoons, and most of the crew plays.
There is a contingent of "old farts" that play. There is one fellow that is shoots, and is a decent player, kind of. When playing 9 ball, nearly every shot he takes is an attempt to roll the 9. He is good enough to run a decent string of balls, but that's his play.
A few weeks ago in league, he and I were shooting. I had a ball sitting in the pocket, blocking his. He leans over to make a shot and moves my ball in the process. After his shot, he takes it upon himself to reposition my ball, conveniently tying up my ball, and leaving him a clean shot.
This week in the tournament, I watched while he shot a fellow. The object ball was sitting in front of the pocket, but blocked on one side by another ball. He started shuffling around the table with his cue held low, while watching to make sure the other player wasn't looking, and conveniently moved the CB about 3 inches to give him a clean shot.
He and I paired up the next round. I pocketed the one ball on the break, but scratched. The nine pinned the bottom rail on the left side, and the to was about 3 inches from the top rail. A cluster of three balls was set up on the bottom rail near the right pocket. He set up the shot with the cue ball against the rail, and pushed through the two, hitting the 9 with the 2, and slammed the cue ball into the cluster making one.
I called a foul and he declared it was a perfect hit. At that point I lost it. I chunked my cue on an adjacent table, told him he was full of shit, and that if he needed to win that bad, he could have it. A few other choice words were exchanged. Gathered my stuff and hit the door with the staff explaining to him what a push was. Maddest I have been in several years.
Granted, I'm just learning the game and should probably have been a better sport, but enough is enough. Talked to a couple of folks from the other room in town, and same shit there.
Anyway, I've kind of calmed down now, but still pissed off. Bad thing is you can't have someone watching his every move during a match.
There is a contingent of "old farts" that play. There is one fellow that is shoots, and is a decent player, kind of. When playing 9 ball, nearly every shot he takes is an attempt to roll the 9. He is good enough to run a decent string of balls, but that's his play.
A few weeks ago in league, he and I were shooting. I had a ball sitting in the pocket, blocking his. He leans over to make a shot and moves my ball in the process. After his shot, he takes it upon himself to reposition my ball, conveniently tying up my ball, and leaving him a clean shot.
This week in the tournament, I watched while he shot a fellow. The object ball was sitting in front of the pocket, but blocked on one side by another ball. He started shuffling around the table with his cue held low, while watching to make sure the other player wasn't looking, and conveniently moved the CB about 3 inches to give him a clean shot.
He and I paired up the next round. I pocketed the one ball on the break, but scratched. The nine pinned the bottom rail on the left side, and the to was about 3 inches from the top rail. A cluster of three balls was set up on the bottom rail near the right pocket. He set up the shot with the cue ball against the rail, and pushed through the two, hitting the 9 with the 2, and slammed the cue ball into the cluster making one.
I called a foul and he declared it was a perfect hit. At that point I lost it. I chunked my cue on an adjacent table, told him he was full of shit, and that if he needed to win that bad, he could have it. A few other choice words were exchanged. Gathered my stuff and hit the door with the staff explaining to him what a push was. Maddest I have been in several years.
Granted, I'm just learning the game and should probably have been a better sport, but enough is enough. Talked to a couple of folks from the other room in town, and same shit there.
Anyway, I've kind of calmed down now, but still pissed off. Bad thing is you can't have someone watching his every move during a match.
TNKen:
Here is where you went awry. You saw all this stuff, but said or did nothing about it. And then when, as described below, when that old-timer's antics finally reached your threshold where you lost it, you -- not him -- now appears to be the boisterous/troublemaker.
I know these types of old-timers you speak of. They think because of their life experience, that they can get over on those with lesser experience. The "cue held/hovering low" over the table is a trick that is as old as the hills. The problem is, with age, the old-timer's senses are dulled, and he thinks his actions are not seen by the young whippersnappers "because of lack of life experience." You need to call him out on each and every infraction -- even if it's just you sidling up to him on the side (away from public view) and telling him "you don't think I did, but I saw that!" Just to let him know that there's someone out there with senses that aren't dulled with age, and that his actions are not as inconspicuous as he thinks they are. Each time you do this, you'll plant doubt in his mind the next time he wants to try it.
You have to call them out on these "thinking he's getting over" actions. The more you ignore, the more he'll do it, because he's thinking he's getting away with it, and worse -- he'll have less and less respect for those around him.
Like I said, this is where you went awry. Exploding like this just makes *you* (not him) appear as the loose lid. Those that are familiar with the old-timer's antics may side with you because they know what you're feeling. But the TD / league operator / others-that-just-joined-the-league (which may be the majority) may not, and to them, you appear as the hothead or "pedant"/nit-picker about the rules.
That's correct -- you can't have someone watching his every move, but at the same time, those "moves" that are caught shouldn't go unresponded-to. He needs to know he's not as slick as he thinks he is. He needs to know there's at least a couple people "on" to him, and to have at least a little more respect. Sure, he may still do it (you won't remove the behavior completely, without removing him from the league), but at least the thought will be in his head that someone is on to him, and may be watching -- and more importantly, will say something.
Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
Isn't it interesting that the worthless mooches think alike time after time. Back to Mommy's basement with you.
I am not sure why people think this.
The numbers are absolutely against it, and the proof is in the pudding: i.e. look how many leagues there are around vs tournaments, and how many normal rooms vs quiet 'cathedral of pool' type rooms with no beer or jukebox.
Edit:
What do you think the big majority of a pool hall's revenue is? Hint: it isn't table time or selling shapers.
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I don't know when room owners are going to get it...pool isn't the business it is an activity to attract business. Just like Karaoke, darts, foosball, bags, bands, etc. The product is the food and drink and the juke box.
I have seen many bars with coin tables raise their rates trying to make money. I have seen as much as $2.50 a game and these places have the worst equipment. At best, with good players or bangers, a bar would make a whopping $10 and hour minus expenses (i.e table cloth, house cues, chalk, etc.)
The good room owners that I know have basically made pool free or close to it. If an owner concentrates on entertaining their customers and creating activities that will keep them in the establishment, they will have created a winning formula in my opinion.
This doesn't mean you can't charge for pool or should, it is just showing that economically, the table doesn't make any sense for the business.
I have seen many bars with coin tables raise their rates trying to make money. I have seen as much as $2.50 a game and these places have the worst equipment. At best, with good players or bangers, a bar would make a whopping $10 and hour minus expenses (i.e table cloth, house cues, chalk, etc.)
The good room owners that I know have basically made pool free or close to it. If an owner concentrates on entertaining their customers and creating activities that will keep them in the establishment, they will have created a winning formula in my opinion.
This doesn't mean you can't charge for pool or should, it is just showing that economically, the table doesn't make any sense for the business.
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You got it. I had a buddy who worked at a pool hall for 6-12 months and was already friendly enough with the owners that he saw the books. It is a pool hall first and a bar second. However, the pool time was non-profitable and all of the profit came from food and drink. This is why many places can promote free pool during certain time slots because they don't make squat off of the charge for table time.
I would guess the establishments that charge around $7 - $12 an hour for table time are the ones trying to figure out a way to make table time marginally profitable.
"Show me the money" -- food and beverage, not table time
Systim6:
For 3 years, I managed the in-house (and intra-branch) leagues over at Boston Billiards in Danbury, CT, before that branch closed-down in 2009. I had visibility into the Boston Billiards books for that branch, because I had to report and document the league fees, prize funds, expenses (including equipment that was broken / needs repair), etc. Keep in mind, the Danbury, CT branch of Boston Billiards was located right next to the Danbury airport, and across the street from the Danbury shopping mall (a rather large mall). It was prime real estate, and was busy almost every night, including weekends. It was actually the ONLY branch closed (out of all the branch closings) that was still in the black; it was closed specifically because of the consolidation-to-an-area (in MA) decision made by executive-level management, not because it was unprofitable.
Having said all this, I can tell you definitively that the lion's share of the Danbury, CT branch's revenue did NOT come from table time. It came from food and beverage. In fact, the disparity in revenue between table time and food/beverage was *so* great, that Boston Billiards often had "Ladies play for FREE every Wednesday" and other table time discounts/freebies like this. On Wednesday, if you had a lady at your table, your table time was free -- whether she was playing or not (all she had to do was bring the balls up, and there was a two-drink minimum). On league nights, table time was free all night as well. This is a branch, mind you, that had three league nights a week. They had 34 tables. Yes, 34 -- all 9-footers.
Now someone like you may say "well, that's not a 'real' pool hall." And I know a lot of folks on here who would vehemently disagree with you. Boston Billiards had a nice formula for making money in the pool industry. Like Dave & Busters, Fox & Hound (and other "themed" pool/amusement places like this), they figured out that sustenance in these hard times cannot come from table time. Table time, in fact, has taken a back seat to the other things that used to be considered "condiments," "side acts," or "pull-through" fare in those "old-time poolrooms" you seem enamored with. Times changed, and places sprang up to roll with the punches, and to exploit the opportunity while still staying in the pool industry.
Do 'real' players frequent these themed pool places that don't make the lion's share of their money on table time? You betcha. In the Danbury, CT branch alone, there were some real monsters at the time -- Scott Ireland, John Gomes, Eddie Lock, Jessie Ramirez, Gil Black, Earl Herring, Jerry Barton, Elder Jesus, et al. These are guys that consistently placed or just plain took-down Joss Tour stops, against many pros' names that you'd recognize. I, in fact, was one of the stronger players there as well, a cut below these guys (but I had to play at the maximum skill level anyway precisely because I also managed the league, to completely defuse any accusations of sandbagging or "the parents eating their young"). I had my share of outright consumption of out-of-towners woofing at the "this is not a poolhall, there are no real players here" scene they saw, and walked out some nights with a nice roll in my pocket.
Personally, I've found that people that woof at (and make fun of) the league players, themselves can't play, or if they can, it's only marginally better. The names I mentioned above are people that never woofed at the leaguers, because they knew their place. The leaguers made money for the branch; in fact, it went from a one-night league night branch, to three-nights-a-week for leaguers precisely because it was a consistent crowd that spent money there. You'd probably say they were a captive audience, but isn't that what capitalism is all about -- capitalizing and growing an opportunity?
So take it from someone that has actually had visibility into a very large venue's books. Any place these days trying to make the lion's share of their revenue from table time alone is DOOMED. That is, unless, the owners are rich, own the plot of land on which the building sits (i.e. no property lease -- outright ownership), as well as the building itself. You have to pay the bills, and the majority of that will come from food and beverage, not table time.
-Sean
Systim6:
For 3 years, I managed the in-house (and intra-branch) leagues over at Boston Billiards in Danbury, CT, before that branch closed-down in 2009. I had visibility into the Boston Billiards books for that branch, because I had to report and document the league fees, prize funds, expenses (including equipment that was broken / needs repair), etc. Keep in mind, the Danbury, CT branch of Boston Billiards was located right next to the Danbury airport, and across the street from the Danbury shopping mall (a rather large mall). It was prime real estate, and was busy almost every night, including weekends. It was actually the ONLY branch closed (out of all the branch closings) that was still in the black; it was closed specifically because of the consolidation-to-an-area (in MA) decision made by executive-level management, not because it was unprofitable.
Having said all this, I can tell you definitively that the lion's share of the Danbury, CT branch's revenue did NOT come from table time. It came from food and beverage. In fact, the disparity in revenue between table time and food/beverage was *so* great, that Boston Billiards often had "Ladies play for FREE every Wednesday" and other table time discounts/freebies like this. On Wednesday, if you had a lady at your table, your table time was free -- whether she was playing or not (all she had to do was bring the balls up, and there was a two-drink minimum). On league nights, table time was free all night as well. This is a branch, mind you, that had three league nights a week. They had 34 tables. Yes, 34 -- all 9-footers.
Now someone like you may say "well, that's not a 'real' pool hall." And I know a lot of folks on here who would vehemently disagree with you. Boston Billiards had a nice formula for making money in the pool industry. Like Dave & Busters, Fox & Hound (and other "themed" pool/amusement places like this), they figured out that sustenance in these hard times cannot come from table time. Table time, in fact, has taken a back seat to the other things that used to be considered "condiments," "side acts," or "pull-through" fare in those "old-time poolrooms" you seem enamored with. Times changed, and places sprang up to roll with the punches, and to exploit the opportunity while still staying in the pool industry.
Do 'real' players frequent these themed pool places that don't make the lion's share of their money on table time? You betcha. In the Danbury, CT branch alone, there were some real monsters at the time -- Scott Ireland, John Gomes, Eddie Lock, Jessie Ramirez, Gil Black, Earl Herring, Jerry Barton, Elder Jesus, et al. These are guys that consistently placed or just plain took-down Joss Tour stops, against many pros' names that you'd recognize. I, in fact, was one of the stronger players there as well, a cut below these guys (but I had to play at the maximum skill level anyway precisely because I also managed the league, to completely defuse any accusations of sandbagging or "the parents eating their young"). I had my share of outright consumption of out-of-towners woofing at the "this is not a poolhall, there are no real players here" scene they saw, and walked out some nights with a nice roll in my pocket.
Personally, I've found that people that woof at (and make fun of) the league players, themselves can't play, or if they can, it's only marginally better. The names I mentioned above are people that never woofed at the leaguers, because they knew their place. The leaguers made money for the branch; in fact, it went from a one-night league night branch, to three-nights-a-week for leaguers precisely because it was a consistent crowd that spent money there. You'd probably say they were a captive audience, but isn't that what capitalism is all about -- capitalizing and growing an opportunity?
So take it from someone that has actually had visibility into a very large venue's books. Any place these days trying to make the lion's share of their revenue from table time alone is DOOMED. That is, unless, the owners are rich, own the plot of land on which the building sits (i.e. no property lease -- outright ownership), as well as the building itself. You have to pay the bills, and the majority of that will come from food and beverage, not table time.
-Sean