Question about gambling, tournaments, matching up

S

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Question for some of you more experienced with the gambling or tournament aspect of the game.

As I'm getting back into the game full swing, and my preshot routine, aiming, and execution are nearing a point better than they have been in the last 20 years of on and off playing, I'm being told by many people that I need to get out of my comfort zone and start playing again against tougher competition. Which means finding more time to be able to play in the very tough weekly tournaments we have here, which I used to do well enough in, and also potentially gambling, which I haven't done that much of frankly. I've played my share of $10 or $20 sets, or $1/$2 or $2/$5 ring games, or $5 a game, but never really much more than that. I did play some 3 cushion for $100 a game once or twice, but I was such a sure winner (in my mind at least) that it didn't feel like gambling… :)

Anyway, I've noticed something lately - I seem to find ways to avoid gambling with players. I'm certainly not opposed to gambling, I think the added pressure of the money forces you to play your best game as long as it's not too far out of your comfort zone, and certainly at the stakes I mentioned none of that would bother me even if I lost. And I actually tend to play better and concentrate more under pressure, like league pool etc, even if my game is a little off, I find a way to win. But I keep pushing people away, with very few exceptions and only then usually known people with an outcome I think I can predict. So I'm not sure if I'm still not confident with the changes I'm making in my game and I don't feel ready to "match up" (I am a perfectionist), or afraid of losing face or status in the room, or don't feel comfortable deciding games and adjusting spots, or wondering why someone would come up to me and ask to play after they've been watching me practice from across the room (I play pretty decent, so if they want to gamble they must be better or at least not afraid, right?), etc.

So, any thoughts from you out there who match up regularly, either with people you know or total strangers, on getting over this hump? Or maybe a different way to think about it? I'm sure the simple answer is just jump in there and do it and be smart with the money management and game making piece of it, but any advice would be appreciated, regarding gambling or playing in larger more regional tournaments.

Thanks,
Scott
 
Good topic. Really, playing under pressure can mean anything. I would never suggest playing for more than you can afford so any gambling I'd be talking about would be somewhat within your comfort zone, given you could afford to lose. But the pressure can come from the competitive spirit of not wanting your opponent to beat you for money, or the pressure of not wanting to be known as a guy who can't bring it when it's for the cheddar. I guess what I'm saying is it is not always about the dollars and cents.

If you are talking about playing for affordable stakes in your local room, just get in there and mix it up. You lose to a particular player a few times you simply ask for weight before you become an ATM to the guy. If he has been feeding off you and won't adjust at some point, he's the lock artist and a nit - you're not.

Same thing in tournaments, just enter and compete. When I got back into the game I had some fear about entering one of the very large local tournaments for fear I'd go 2 and out and put in a bad showing. But I went ahead and entered anyway and came to realize that no one, and I mean no one, was paying any attention whatsoever to my performance. Can you imagine that? :grin-square: Fact is, it was all in my own head. You may also find that when you draw a particularly strong competitor that it actually takes some of the pressure off because you are not under "pressure" to beat him. So you just go out and play your best.

You'll never get comfortable matching up or adjusting weight without gaining some experience in doing so. If you are a perfectionist look at it this way, rather than looking for the stone cold lock, make it your challenge to be able to find the "correct" game, one in which it is even.

Best of luck.
 
I highly suggest playing against tougher players in tournaments or gambling to get out of your "comfort zone". But I you should not get out of your "comfort zone" with the money aspect. No matter what you choose it is always a good idea to play within your budget and you shouldn't have to raise the stakes the achieve you goals.

scottjen26 said:
Question for some of you more experienced with the gambling or tournament aspect of the game.

As I'm getting back into the game full swing, and my preshot routine, aiming, and execution are nearing a point better than they have been in the last 20 years of on and off playing, I'm being told by many people that I need to get out of my comfort zone and start playing again against tougher competition. Which means finding more time to be able to play in the very tough weekly tournaments we have here, which I used to do well enough in, and also potentially gambling, which I haven't done that much of frankly. I've played my share of $10 or $20 sets, or $1/$2 or $2/$5 ring games, or $5 a game, but never really much more than that. I did play some 3 cushion for $100 a game once or twice, but I was such a sure winner (in my mind at least) that it didn't feel like gambling… :)

Anyway, I've noticed something lately - I seem to find ways to avoid gambling with players. I'm certainly not opposed to gambling, I think the added pressure of the money forces you to play your best game as long as it's not too far out of your comfort zone, and certainly at the stakes I mentioned none of that would bother me even if I lost. And I actually tend to play better and concentrate more under pressure, like league pool etc, even if my game is a little off, I find a way to win. But I keep pushing people away, with very few exceptions and only then usually known people with an outcome I think I can predict. So I'm not sure if I'm still not confident with the changes I'm making in my game and I don't feel ready to "match up" (I am a perfectionist), or afraid of losing face or status in the room, or don't feel comfortable deciding games and adjusting spots, or wondering why someone would come up to me and ask to play after they've been watching me practice from across the room (I play pretty decent, so if they want to gamble they must be better or at least not afraid, right?), etc.

So, any thoughts from you out there who match up regularly, either with people you know or total strangers, on getting over this hump? Or maybe a different way to think about it? I'm sure the simple answer is just jump in there and do it and be smart with the money management and game making piece of it, but any advice would be appreciated, regarding gambling or playing in larger more regional tournaments.

Thanks,
Scott
Click to expand...
 
Yea, I guess the weird thing is I play well enough where I would beat my fair share of players regularly and can hold my own against even the best in the area, and I know and have played with most of them in tournaments in the past. They certainly have the edge in experience and consistency and therefore will win a typical race to 7 probably 75% - 80% of the time, and that's why I keep obsessively working on my game looking for that key to unlock that next level where I can cut down some of those easy misses and easy position mistakes that you just don't see that top players do hardly at all.

So it's really odd when Joe Schmoe comes up to me, and I don't know him, and instead of matching up for a few bucks I withdraw. I automatically think he might be better (even though I know pretty much all of the people that can play at that level locally) or don't want to put pressure on this game I'm trying to work on. Can't figure it out, but I caught myself doing that several times over the last few weeks, and I've been playing again now for 4 months or so and there shouldn't be any reason to doubt my game at this point. That's why I made the post.

I know the simple answer is to just stop withdrawing and stop saying now and just get out there and play again, so I guess I'm going to have to just kick myself in the butt and stop being a recluse. My game will probably never get to the point where I'm completely happy with it, since I am a perfectionist, but looking at it now even though I'm making a few more mistakes here and there that I don't like it's probably good enough to get the job done most of the time.

Any other advice would be great, but I think I know what I have to do… Just curious if anyone else had gone through this…

Thanks!
Scott
 
One thing to consider when going deeper into action play especially as the stakes go up. There is skill in gambling as you get into the money players you will find that not only are most good players they are also good gamblers. It is important to keep the money within your comfort zone. A gambler will use it against you if given the opportunity. This is just my opinion but 10-15 years ago you could go anywhere and find a match that was suited for you (player level, stakes, etc.) With today's economy most of the guys that gamble in the $20 a game or $100 a set and up are tough to beat. I spent most of my pool life playing in the $10 a game to $500 set range and did well but I find that the other guys playing in that range today are much stiffer competition than they were 10 years ago. So instead of forcing the issue and making it difficult on myself I changed my style of play and approach a little and started playing tournaments and leagues (the very guys I preyed an when I was gambling). I get in the money the majority of the time so it works out for me. I don't have to be dead in stroke to win and I still get paid. I guess what I am trying to say is I agree that if you want improvement you have to play players but there are plenty of places to play them for an entry fee.
 
2rgrbn said:
One thing to consider when going deeper into action play especially as the stakes go up. There is skill in gambling as you get into the money players you will find that not only are most good players they are also good gamblers. It is important to keep the money within your comfort zone. A gambler will use it against you if given the opportunity. This is just my opinion but 10-15 years ago you could go anywhere and find a match that was suited for you (player level, stakes, etc.) With today's economy most of the guys that gamble in the $20 a game or $100 a set and up are tough to beat. I spent most of my pool life playing in the $10 a game to $500 set range and did well but I find that the other guys playing in that range today are much stiffer competition than they were 10 years ago. So instead of forcing the issue and making it difficult on myself I changed my style of play and approach a little and started playing tournaments and leagues (the very guys I preyed an when I was gambling). I get in the money the majority of the time so it works out for me. I don't have to be dead in stroke to win and I still get paid. I guess what I am trying to say is I agree that if you want improvement you have to play players but there are plenty of places to play them for an entry fee.
Click to expand...

SPOT ON great post.
 
to gamble or to not to gamble :)

Well,

this is an interesting thread. I can understand both parts on this topic. (if gambling helps or not to increase your game).

This depends on your own attitude. Some humans are able to give 100% focus and have ALWAYS the necessary willing to win (that s at least for both sides the key!). Without the willing and the heart....you usually will be more the runner up than the winner.
To gamble puts for sure pressure on you- and we could discuss here about the amount of money, the overall sense of it- think this topic could have endless postings :-)

But what is 100% for sure is, that you need to play competition, to mess always with the best or equal opponents. So that you definitley know that your mistake would be your last mistake in that match. The kind of competition brings me back again to ask:
tournaments or gambling? How i said- this is about your personal attitutde. Everybody is different. We can count pro players/stong players who never gamble- and on the other side pro-players/strong players who grown up with gambling and increased their game with gambling.

in my opinion noone could recommend you here what is right or wrong. Listen to your heart-and decide for yourself what you want. It would make no sense if you start for example to gamble...and feeling like a piece of horseshit before you hit the first ball.

It is ALL ABOUT THE WILLING AND THE HEART - so you decide if you need to throw in money to pay 100% focus-
But oyu need to compete in practice and in competition of course!

lg from overseas,

Ingo
 
fast8ballin said:
I highly suggest playing against tougher players in tournaments or gambling to get out of your "comfort zone". But I you should not get out of your "comfort zone" with the money aspect. No matter what you choose it is always a good idea to play within your budget and you shouldn't have to raise the stakes the achieve you goals.
Click to expand...

Agree- nice posting.:thumbup:
 
maybe this will help
look at matching up for now as taking a lesson
you are paying or being paid to find out how your game is under pressure
what holds up and what breaks down
if you can be objective and not too hard on yourself(as a perfectioist difficult) you wil find out how much the new you is cemented dry and what still needs to be molded into shape
if you can push out the possibilities of losing face (omg you lost to HIM!!!)
and look at it as a step along the journey it might get you overr the hump
 
2rgrbn said:
One thing to consider when going deeper into action play especially as the stakes go up. There is skill in gambling as you get into the money players you will find that not only are most good players they are also good gamblers. It is important to keep the money within your comfort zone. A gambler will use it against you if given the opportunity. This is just my opinion but 10-15 years ago you could go anywhere and find a match that was suited for you (player level, stakes, etc.) With today's economy most of the guys that gamble in the $20 a game or $100 a set and up are tough to beat. I spent most of my pool life playing in the $10 a game to $500 set range and did well but I find that the other guys playing in that range today are much stiffer competition than they were 10 years ago. So instead of forcing the issue and making it difficult on myself I changed my style of play and approach a little and started playing tournaments and leagues (the very guys I preyed an when I was gambling). I get in the money the majority of the time so it works out for me. I don't have to be dead in stroke to win and I still get paid. I guess what I am trying to say is I agree that if you want improvement you have to play players but there are plenty of places to play them for an entry fee.
Click to expand...

good point
 
Suggestion

scottjen26 said:
Question for some of you more experienced with the gambling or tournament aspect of the game.

As I'm getting back into the game full swing, and my preshot routine, aiming, and execution are nearing a point better than they have been in the last 20 years of on and off playing, I'm being told by many people that I need to get out of my comfort zone and start playing again against tougher competition. Which means finding more time to be able to play in the very tough weekly tournaments we have here, which I used to do well enough in, and also potentially gambling, which I haven't done that much of frankly. I've played my share of $10 or $20 sets, or $1/$2 or $2/$5 ring games, or $5 a game, but never really much more than that. I did play some 3 cushion for $100 a game once or twice, but I was such a sure winner (in my mind at least) that it didn't feel like gambling… :)

Anyway, I've noticed something lately - I seem to find ways to avoid gambling with players. I'm certainly not opposed to gambling, I think the added pressure of the money forces you to play your best game as long as it's not too far out of your comfort zone, and certainly at the stakes I mentioned none of that would bother me even if I lost. And I actually tend to play better and concentrate more under pressure, like league pool etc, even if my game is a little off, I find a way to win. But I keep pushing people away, with very few exceptions and only then usually known people with an outcome I think I can predict. So I'm not sure if I'm still not confident with the changes I'm making in my game and I don't feel ready to "match up" (I am a perfectionist), or afraid of losing face or status in the room, or don't feel comfortable deciding games and adjusting spots, or wondering why someone would come up to me and ask to play after they've been watching me practice from across the room (I play pretty decent, so if they want to gamble they must be better or at least not afraid, right?), etc.

So, any thoughts from you out there who match up regularly, either with people you know or total strangers, on getting over this hump? Or maybe a different way to think about it? I'm sure the simple answer is just jump in there and do it and be smart with the money management and game making piece of it, but any advice would be appreciated, regarding gambling or playing in larger more regional tournaments.

Thanks,
Scott
Click to expand...
I also concentrate better if something is on the line.The thing I do not like about gambling is if you win the loser wants a chance to get even and that is fair, but where does it stop? I got involved in a match with someone who should have beaten me, but he didn't and we ended up playing 5 straight sets until I said I was definetley through. It was late and I had to work the next day.well he was mad that I was pulling out on him and he did make me feel guilty.Any time after that when someone wanted to gamble on a set I upfront said 3 sets is the most I will play .I do not like the feeling if I win I am trapped at the table.Maybe this is also in the back of your mind.
 
MOST of the time, if someone is watching you for a period of time and they are not hitting any balls or you haven't seen them hit any balls, well then you most likely have the worst of it, especially if they ask you to play.

I think gambling is a fun thing to do if you're willing to put up with the occasional loud mouths whose only skill is opening up the noses of those that will listen to their diatribe.

There are some who will play an even game. If I find an even game, I will play it every time I come in the pool room. It's been my experience that MOST people don't want an even game. Shoot, even I enjoy giving a spanking every now and then and if I have the best of it I don't mind that.

The only time I avoid an even game is if I think the other player is giving me too much grief, if they are sharking or if I think they are laying down. On the laying down business; often you can tell about that by how eager they are to play again.:p I like to play when I am fresh and like to play until I am starting to get tired. When I get tired, I like to quit. It's no fun playing when you are tired.

Most of the time, the bartender CAN be your friend. Tip well and tell them what you want to accomplish (if you are a stranger).

Otherwise, just sit around watching the potential opponents like a buzzard waiting for an animal to show a little weakness. Just be careful they aren't laying it down. ;)
 
Great posts and insight for those who are in the same position.
I know it has definitely put things in perspective for me.
 
No losers

When I go into a new room and start
hitting balls I know I'm on the spot.

If someone asks me to play I assume
he or she figures they can beat me
(like a drum)and since I don't lay
down in a strange place they are
always correct.

I have a problem with motivation when
playing strangers. I find it hard to try.
So I use these games to work on my attitude.

I almost always lose but I also learn
something. Like how to keep my concentration
up.This is what I'm playing for. A few
bucks isn't going to change anyone's lifestyle
but the experience, education and fun is what
I play for. I am constantly working on improving.

I won't lose much. I'm no ones ATM, and I tell
the other player I'm only in for a couple
of sets. No more no matter how we stand. That
tells him quitting winner is OK.

The other guy is happy cause he won a few bucks.
I'm happy if I played well and kept my attitude where
it needed to be. The other guy may not know it but we
both won and what could be better than that!

Winning isn't always measured in dollars!

Maybe for you there are other things to
win than money.
 
Quote

"It's what a man knows about himself on the inside that makes him afraid".
- Clint Eastwood
 
Interesting, my old thread brought back to life... :)

Since that post a year ago June I still haven't done too much - work, life, etc. gets in the way. But I have played in some tourneys and put myself out there even when not feeling 100% ready and done pretty well. Seems I almost always finish in the top 25% of the field, even though that's not always good enough to cash. And that's usually with me not playing anywhere close to my best.

Have to come realize that all players make mistakes. I've seen the best players in the area make horrible decisions, play bad patterns, etc. We all do it. I think I'm just such a perfectionist that I hate mistakes, and since they will inevitably happen I'm constantly in a struggle with that. I ran 5 racks of 10 ball a few months ago and felt like I was playing perfect, but I realize I can't maintain that level constantly, not with how often I play. But with each passing week, continuing to work on my game, I feel like I keep gaining knowledge and eliminating weaknesses.

My fellow players are always pushing me to get out there more, travel to tourneys, etc. I'm sure if I played in the local tourney (tough) every week and traveled around a bit I'd quickly gain the level of experience that I feel I'm missing. Just hard to justify with family and everyting, I make far more just sitting on my a$$ at a desk. I know it's for the competition and the ranking aspect, not always the money, but hard to justify that to others or even for myself.

I do think I've always struggled with this internally, a previous post was right on. I know I'm good enough to play with and equal a lot of the people I see now, but it's that fear of not measuring up, the time commitment, or the self-loathing (a bit harsh, I know) that comes with a poor performance. All things to struggle through when the timing is right I guess.

I know recently I've had a breakthrough and am finally not working on all of the aiming stuff etc. and just trusting everything and my game has improved, going through all of that mechanical stuff and letting go and coming out the other side was a long process since I don't play frequently but well worth it. Certainly appreciate all the advice I've received here.
Scott
 
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