I see nothing wrong with a player breaking a record if they are capable.
And I think some are.
Absolutely they should be shooting at it IMO
And I think some are.
Absolutely they should be shooting at it IMO
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World Record: 526 balls
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
You're missing my point, but it's understandable. I wasn't making myself clear. My point "pros don't miss" was in answer to the implication that he'll miss more on a 9' table. When someone says Mosconi played on an 8 footer not 9, he is implying that the bigger table means more misses. My whole post was devoted to dispelling that so called "advantage". 8 to 9 is miniscule but more importantly, the game of 14.1, to a player like Mosconi, is all played on HALF the table ie 4.5x4.5, and also great position players get close to the ball...there are no long shots. Bigger tables are more important in 9ball, where shots are long and sometimes tough. That is not, however, the essense of 14.1. 14.1 is about position play(sometimes measured in fractions) and smart choices which I contend is tougher on a smaller table because smaller tables have more clutter.
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If you put Mosconi in that hypothetical room full of the best 14.1 players and took odds on who would have the high run at the end of the week, I suspect a lot of money would be on Willie. If you put them on the old worsted cloth and handed them the same old style of cue Mosconi used, my money is all over Mosconi.
That's not intended to disrespect todays great players but 14.1 is what Mosconi did day after day in those exhibitions for Brunswick.
Gotta agree with Jay. It almost doesn't matter how it's done. IT's not the table or pocket size...these guys are pros, man. It'll all come down to focusing on 38 racks which is a feat in itself. When you get that high, it's lapse of concentration that'll do you in.
Joey where did you get the information about the pocket size of the 4x8?
This has been some information I have been looking for a long time, is there a referance to this some where?
Thanks Craig
Craig,
It has been mentioned by a few different posters. I don't know the original source but it is also mentioned at WikiPedia.
wIKIpEDIA PAR-TAY
Speaking of WikiPedia, there is a WikiPedia getogether at ten cities across the United States, TODAY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiknic
Speaking of WikiPedia, there is a WikiPedia getogether at ten cities across the United States, TODAY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiknic
Curly Howard
Banned
The mistake made was if they had bought one of these million dollar policies paid to who ever runs over 526, and put that up for a challenge at all the major pro tour events, it could have kicked the game into a new level. And Efren would have done it in the first year after he learned how to play the game. He was running 200 when he did not have a clue how to set up a break shot.
Willie was the greatest ball runner in his era, but all records, are made, to be broken.
I think Mosconi has a high run of over 400 on a 5x10 with felt correct?? was a question. Answer.
The high run was Crane first in 1939 on a 10', 309, then willie at 365, then they went to 9' tables. We have never used felt. It is cloth. Willies 10' run was on Simonis #1, which is like 760 in speed used today, which is about 15% faster than 860.
Willies HR on a 10' was using simoinis #1, which is thinner and about 15% faster than 860. After WWII, simonis was no longer imported into the usa, and the only time it was used, was during the world championship in NYC, when they brought in a couple of bolts just for that event. All the other tournaments were on what you call today, house cloth, thicker and slower than simonis.
So when Willie did a different exhibition every day, he would have used what that local installer had in stock, and it would have always been, house cloth. The 14.1 players, actually liked the slower cloth better, as it was easier to play close up position better, where a faster cloth could let the cue ball run long and off angle on you. Mike Sigel, came up on the slow cloth, and even talked the IPT into using it, so it would give him the edge.
Willies 526 run, was not on simonis, there was none around for him to use. Simonis did not come back into the usa for another 30 years after willies Hr.
I have a friend, very knowledgeable, a pro, who got on the table right after his run, and checked it out, and told me the pockets were 5 l/2". Bucket pockets, and that would make sense, Willie would choose the table to play on, that had the largest easiest pockets. It was a show, and it featured him making a 100 ball run, which he did, just about every show, sometimes you might see 200 or more. The pocket size was was never discussed or mentioned over the years, but the actual size was known and it floated around. Recently, somebody wrote in the record you see on the net the pockets were pro cut, I dont believe it, that was done, just to purify the run and the record, probably by Brunswick.
A 300 ball run, is fantastic, and 300 on a 10' table with 4 l/2" pockets, I think would be greater than 526 on an 8' table with 5 l/2" pockets, that is why they covered that one up.
Pocket sizes have varied widely over the years from 4 l/2" in Greenleafs era, where Brunswick started making 5 l/2" for the general public to make the game easier for them. So why would not, willie use the easiest table, who would know?
A decade ago, tables were sold with two choices, 4 3/4" pro cut, or 5" for the mom and pop crowd. Today, to save money, your only choice is pro cut, or then shim them to be tighter. On the pro tours, they ranged in modern times to any where from 4 3/4", 4 l/2", 4/ 3/4", to Gabriel 5". Imagine Golf, playing a different size hole every week, that is now nuts these pockets sizes are, since we dont have any one organization controling this.
I know, that throws a monkey wrench in the story, but that's the truth, so dont shoot your messenger here. I have nothing but the greatest respect for Willie Mosconi, the greatest champion of his time.
Willie was the greatest ball runner in his era, but all records, are made, to be broken.
I think Mosconi has a high run of over 400 on a 5x10 with felt correct?? was a question. Answer.
The high run was Crane first in 1939 on a 10', 309, then willie at 365, then they went to 9' tables. We have never used felt. It is cloth. Willies 10' run was on Simonis #1, which is like 760 in speed used today, which is about 15% faster than 860.
Willies HR on a 10' was using simoinis #1, which is thinner and about 15% faster than 860. After WWII, simonis was no longer imported into the usa, and the only time it was used, was during the world championship in NYC, when they brought in a couple of bolts just for that event. All the other tournaments were on what you call today, house cloth, thicker and slower than simonis.
So when Willie did a different exhibition every day, he would have used what that local installer had in stock, and it would have always been, house cloth. The 14.1 players, actually liked the slower cloth better, as it was easier to play close up position better, where a faster cloth could let the cue ball run long and off angle on you. Mike Sigel, came up on the slow cloth, and even talked the IPT into using it, so it would give him the edge.
Willies 526 run, was not on simonis, there was none around for him to use. Simonis did not come back into the usa for another 30 years after willies Hr.
I have a friend, very knowledgeable, a pro, who got on the table right after his run, and checked it out, and told me the pockets were 5 l/2". Bucket pockets, and that would make sense, Willie would choose the table to play on, that had the largest easiest pockets. It was a show, and it featured him making a 100 ball run, which he did, just about every show, sometimes you might see 200 or more. The pocket size was was never discussed or mentioned over the years, but the actual size was known and it floated around. Recently, somebody wrote in the record you see on the net the pockets were pro cut, I dont believe it, that was done, just to purify the run and the record, probably by Brunswick.
A 300 ball run, is fantastic, and 300 on a 10' table with 4 l/2" pockets, I think would be greater than 526 on an 8' table with 5 l/2" pockets, that is why they covered that one up.
Pocket sizes have varied widely over the years from 4 l/2" in Greenleafs era, where Brunswick started making 5 l/2" for the general public to make the game easier for them. So why would not, willie use the easiest table, who would know?
A decade ago, tables were sold with two choices, 4 3/4" pro cut, or 5" for the mom and pop crowd. Today, to save money, your only choice is pro cut, or then shim them to be tighter. On the pro tours, they ranged in modern times to any where from 4 3/4", 4 l/2", 4/ 3/4", to Gabriel 5". Imagine Golf, playing a different size hole every week, that is now nuts these pockets sizes are, since we dont have any one organization controling this.
I know, that throws a monkey wrench in the story, but that's the truth, so dont shoot your messenger here. I have nothing but the greatest respect for Willie Mosconi, the greatest champion of his time.
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Curly Howard
Banned
Believe who ever you wish to, I really dont care. Go with what Brunswicks feeds you, then you will be happy. Any time you break news like this, of course, nobody is going to believe you, all you get for this, is ridicule and abuse.
Sorry Curly. I think you got my post wrong. I'm not giving you ridicule or abuse.
I'm glad to hear the difference of opinion and would just like to have some verifiable source for the width of the pockets.
Curly Howard
Banned
Of course, I did not mean you, for you just asked the question. It will be others, who will do this. So many in the pool world, when they see something, they dont understand, or it is different from what they think they know, they dont examine and study it, they just kill it on the spot, then they are happy and content.
Brunswick for decades pushed the Mosconi HR record, because he was a paid staff player, and selling him, and his records, meant more profits for them. They helped to hide and bury the real high run of Michael Eufemia, which is 625 on a 9' table. If you dont believe me, just ask Ray Martin, he will tell you it is so. So covering up the size of the pockets, had to be them as well. I dont think Flo had anything to do with that.
Exhibition Hr's are soft, a high run in a pro tournament, I am more impressed with. But, they made these guys quit when they got to 125 and later 150. The Sigel 150 at the Roosevelt, he was so in the zone, so perfect, if they had left him alone and just kept racking, he might have ran 600 that night. And that is what they should have done, let them keep going past 150, and the rest of the field, continued around the one man show. And paid a million bucks for the first to go past 526, this could still be done today, if a real new tour comes back. That would be one heck of an attraction. It could be a 9 ball event, and have a challenge table in the back just for the one man straight pool challenge, and have a camera rolling on every challenge, which the player has to buy into, to have a chance at the big bucks. You could pay out a bonus, when one goes over 150, 300, or 400. It could help bring back this great game, that is now all but dead, out side of the NE and Chicago areas. The challenge fees could help pay for the insurance policy. If you pay your fee, run 3 and miss, you can ante up, try again and again.
It becomes hard to compare some of the things done back in the day, to what is being played with now.
The high run racks in 9 ball is only nine. Only 3 people have done it, most feel, its much higher than this. But in recent years, nobody could break the record, because they went to alternating racks, so your high run then, could only be one.
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Earl Strickland once ran 11 racks in a tournament for a $1,000,000 prize.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Strickland
I myself once ran 6 racks - and I'd have a VERY hard time believing that was only within 3 of the record.
I have seen Shannon Daulton run a bunch of 7 packs. I have also seen
him run a set in 9 ball. Race to 9
Pretty tough action
Curly Howard
Banned
The 3 that ran the 9 racks are luat, medina, immonen, believe it. Why would I lie? I told you, that this one would be hard to handle.
Earl never ran 11 racks or got a mil, he ran a couple, most were short racks, combos in early a few 9's on the break, and it was probably a set up con, which was not totally filmed, and the company that put up the money, knew they were being hustled by Cj and earl, who probably cut it up betweeen them, paid earl off with something like 150K I heard, just to stay out of court. Earl took the money and ran, or at least, that was the story I heard, so its 2nd hand, and I wont vouch for it being true. It appears that one, was about as phony as the first challenge of champions, when sigel got every one to bet on the 20 to 1 Lebron, then the entire field bet on him and went into the tank.
In the world of pool and gamblers and hustlers there are always two stories, the one for the press, and the real story, you usually get from me.
same table,balls cloth and pockets and i bet no one runs 400 balls in the first month
i think todays cloth and balls make the game easier
it would be harder to break the balls out and easier to get hooked on the smaller table
just my guess
as far as the earl story,what about the 200 or so witnesses
i think todays cloth and balls make the game easier
it would be harder to break the balls out and easier to get hooked on the smaller table
just my guess
as far as the earl story,what about the 200 or so witnesses
If they let him run past 150 in the tournament, isn't it just like practicing or "brunswick HR's" the match ends at 150 anything past that is no longer a tournament run. If you played a match to 500 points then someone could run 500.