World Record: 526 balls

[pt109]

The table would have to have the same cloth that Willie used (whatever that was) or something with essentially similar properties. I know it wasn't Simonis 860 and was much slower with a nap.

The hardest part about straight pool isn't pocketing balls (which the table and pocket sizes affect), it's opening up the pack and subsequent clusters while continuing a run. Many times with Simonis 860, all it takes is one break shot. With a slow cloth, it usually takes two or three attempts to fully separate the balls. For this reason, straight pool is far too easy for pros on Simonis 860 no matter the table and pocket sizes.

IMHO, breaking Mosconi's record on a table with Simonis 860 would require an asterisk.

I think the talk of all that slow cloth is exaggerated.
I played lots from the middle 60's on and played on lots of fast cloth.
Played very little bar-box and that's where most of the rough cloth was.

In Florida, I actually played 9-ball on carom cloth...'68.
In '78, the best 5x10 snooker table I ever saw was in Decatur IL....
..it had carom cloth.

The famous Rack in Detroit, when Gil Elias owned it, had cloth that was
somewhere between carom and 760 speed-wise.

LA,in the 60's....never ran into one 'horse-blanket'.

Some pool halls DID have thick cloth, but in general I associated cheap
cloth with 'bar' conditions.

 

[macguy]

I think the talk of all that slow cloth is exaggerated.
I played lots from the middle 60's on and played on lots of fast cloth.
Played very little bar-box and that's where most of the rough cloth was.

In Florida, I actually played 9-ball on carom cloth...'68.
In '78, the best 5x10 snooker table I ever saw was in Decatur IL....
..it had carom cloth.

The famous Rack in Detroit, when Gil Elias owned it, had cloth that was
somewhere between carom and 760 speed-wise.

LA,in the 60's....never ran into one 'horse-blanket'.

Some pool halls DID have thick cloth, but in general I associated cheap
cloth with 'bar' conditions.

Playing straight pool it made a difference. After the break shot the balls would be all tied up in clusters more so then today's cloth; where when you shoot a break shot you may not have two balls touching evenly spread around the table. Another thing the thicker cloth would wear differently especially at the rails. You would get deep groves along the rails from the balls striking the rail and changing direction making an indentation. It was more then just the speed. Balls would also act funny around the rack area sometimes just falling against each other freezing up. Same with the rails and the grooves I mentioned. A ball would bump the rail stop and fall back freezing to the rail resting in the groove. It was worse in tournaments because the cloth was new and by say the third day could be playing really weird. In a pool room the cloth would reach a certain wear and it didn't really matter anymore. In fact in pool rooms it often wore to down till it was like a bed sheet depending on how well the owner maintained the tables.

I remember driving Jimmy Caras to an exhibition and they had recovered the table fresh for the exhibition. It was awful his high run was like 25, you could not get the rack open no matter what you did. The very first break shot he had was the last ball against the side rail where you cut it in and go into the side of the rack. The balls just stayed there and the cue ball stuck to the side, we just looked at each other. He just took it in stride and did a great show regardless no complaining. On the way back he was telling me horror stories what it was like playing way back when. He said a 100 ball run was considered an accomplishment depending on the conditions.
Today players would walk out if they had to play under some of those conditions. I don't think many players would enjoy playing with a wet towel wrapped around their necks. Summer pool was a killer back then.

 

[pt109]

Today players would walk out if they had to play under some of those conditions. I don't think many players would enjoy playing with a wet towel wrapped around their necks. Summer pool was a killer back then.

You brought back a memory with this one.
I hate talcum powder.
Playing in August...and it was raining cats and dogs...'67
..stuck 70% of my bank-roll...went to the powder and bust the room.

Saw two straight pool players playing under these conditions..
..they were 200-ball runners....
in three games to 150...nobody ran 30.

In Jimmy Moore's room ...saw a guy using a $bill in his bridge hand...
..fore-runner of the glove

 

[Tom In Cincy]

There were plenty of times the matches were races to 1500 or 2000 balls. Over a time period of a week. That is how some of the champions made money. They were challenged by one of the top contenders of the day.

Each day there was a break point agreed to by the players. Maybe 300 balls per day or until a run was finished.

Not all of the 40s and 50s championships were won in a tournament. Sometimes there were 4 challenge matches a year.

Ok but It's never going to be done in true tournament play-once 125/150 points are reached that match is over and its just running balls and going for the record. I doubt you will see the run ended on a safe (that would be funny) They are just gonna keep firing away.

Not to mention there have been only 2 claims to higher practice runs and who really knows about those.

Fans love records and the guy who breaks the record will make at least $250k off it (sad) and generate whole lot of interest for the sport. Im thinking about kicking in some addl bonus money next year for it but i have to wait to make sure the market doesn't crash in the mean time.

 

[brandoncook26]

In Jimmy Moore's room ...saw a guy using a $bill in his bridge hand...
..fore-runner of the glove

There was an old timer where I used to play tournaments that played with a rolled up bill around his shaft. That's the only time I've ever seen that done.

 

[ironman]

Where did you ever get your information for that last statement?

LMAO at that one!! I have always doubted Willie could whip my ex wife!

 

[Mr441]

The felt vs cloth is a big difference. So if someone was going to try and break it on a 4x8 it would be cool if it was felt.

I think Mosconi has a high run of over 400 on a 5x10 with felt correct??

Also as far as ease for break and runs for 8 ball it's bartable>>>bigtable(assuming same cueball)


I've never seen Willie hit a ball under 70 or 80 yrs old but from everyone that has seen him in his prime they all seem to say there was just something different(better)about the way Willie did it than everyone else.

I think it was babe Cranfield who ran 420 balls on a 5x10. Mosconi ran 353 on a 5x10....not long after that he ran 365 but he never said what kind of table it was.

Mosconi also ran 589 and 608 in practice on a 9' table.

 

[doubletrouble]

had they had video back in the day, imagine mosconi's 15 championships. master. record high ball on 4x8 and 5x10.

 

[OneIron]

I saw Mosconi in person at an exhibition match in his later years. He was an absolutely amazing player. Looked incapable of making a mistake.

 

[OneIron]

From Wikipedia: "Mosconi set the world record by running 526 consecutive balls without a miss during a straight pool exhibition in Springfield, Ohio on March 19–20, 1954. To this day the record has not been toppled and many speculate it may never be bested.[8][9] A handwritten and notarized affidavit[10] with the signatures of more than 35 eyewitnesses exists as proof of this feat.

The record was set on a 4 × 8 foot Brunswick table with 4 7/8 inch pockets at the East High Billiard Club. Today's standard for tables may be considered more difficult to play on than this exhibition table in the sense that longer shots are required (today's standard tables are 9 x 4 1/2 ft) with 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 inch pockets, but today's tables may be considered easier to play on in the sense that there is more room for the balls to spread, creating unfettered shots. Mosconi competed successfully on 4 1/2 × 9 and 5 x 10 ft tables. The 526-ball record just happened to be on a 4 × 8 ft table, a size seldom used in professional play, but used for the billiard club exhibition that day. In fact, the room owner expected the exhibition to take place on the room's 9 foot table. That table was not a Brunswick, so Willie was required to play on one of the Brunswick 8 foot tables."

I have always heard that he didn't miss during this exhibition. He simply stopped shooting. Is that true?

 

[Winston846]

He missed...

From Wikipedia: "Mosconi set the world record by running 526 consecutive balls without a miss during a straight pool exhibition in Springfield, Ohio on March 19–20, 1954. To this day the record has not been toppled and many speculate it may never be bested.[8][9] A handwritten and notarized affidavit[10] with the signatures of more than 35 eyewitnesses exists as proof of this feat.

The record was set on a 4 × 8 foot Brunswick table with 4 7/8 inch pockets at the East High Billiard Club. Today's standard for tables may be considered more difficult to play on than this exhibition table in the sense that longer shots are required (today's standard tables are 9 x 4 1/2 ft) with 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 inch pockets, but today's tables may be considered easier to play on in the sense that there is more room for the balls to spread, creating unfettered shots. Mosconi competed successfully on 4 1/2 × 9 and 5 x 10 ft tables. The 526-ball record just happened to be on a 4 × 8 ft table, a size seldom used in professional play, but used for the billiard club exhibition that day. In fact, the room owner expected the exhibition to take place on the room's 9 foot table. That table was not a Brunswick, so Willie was required to play on one of the Brunswick 8 foot tables."

I have always heard that he didn't miss during this exhibition. He simply stopped shooting. Is that true?

He missed. More on that story here...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=198958

 

[alstl]

If it is broken I hope it is on video. Regardless of the equipment it is tough to accomplish. Bigger pockets also = easier to scratch.

If somebody put up a $1 million dollar reward for a video of 527 balls the record would fall. At the same time, if you offered Mosconi $1 million dollars to break his own record he would have done it.

 

[LAlouie]

Pros don't miss. And pros don't miss when they get good position. A smaller table also means a crowded table. And they weren't playing with aramith balls(or whatever they use today). Mosconi did enough on 9'ers to solidify his record on the 8'er.

To me,,,playing with cr@ppy balls, on mud cloth, and smaller table requires an effort equal to if not more than fast cloth, aramith balls, and bigger table. Also, don't forget, you play 14.1 the way it should be played and you're playing in the front half of the table anyway, not the FULL table, so the idea that a larger tables makes a difference is totally negated by crafty play. So yeah, I'd like to see someone break the record with the same equipment that Mosconi played with...EXACTLY the same equipment.

 

[OneIron]

I believe a straight pool exhibition tour could be a winner mainly because it appeals to the older crowd who are willing and able to part with some cash.

Eddie Felson: "This ain't pool. This is for bangers. Straight pool is pool. This is like hand-ball, or cribbage, or something. Straight pool, you gotta be a real surgeon to get 'em, you know? It's all finesse. Now, every thing is nine-ball, 'cause it's fast, good for T.V., good for a lot of break shots... Oh, well. What the hell. Checkers sells more than chess".

 

[jay helfert]

If someone breaks Mosconi's record on any table I would be first to applaud the feat. There has been a lot of Straight Pool played since 1954 and only once (Thomas Engert's 491) has anyone come close. 8', 9', makes no difference to me. It wouldn't be easy to do if you had all the best 14.1 players in the world competing on 8' tables with similar sized pockets. In fact I'd bet against it if they played all day for a week, each having their own table to shoot on.

 

[Winston846]

Pros don't miss. And pros don't miss when they get good position.

Like us, they're human, and yes, they do on occasion miss. Just nowhere near as often as we do.

In a conversation about golf, someone once described to me the difference between an amateur and a pro as being that the pro doesn't necessarily make more great shots than the amateur, just far fewer bad ones. I think the same can be said about pool.

 

[OneIron]

He missed. More on that story here...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=198958

Thanks for that. It's a shame there's no video of that run. That would be priceless!

 

[OneIron]

If someone breaks Mosconi's record on any table I would be first to applaud the feat. There has been a lot of Straight Pool played since 1954 and only once (Thomas Engert's 491) has anyone come close. 8', 9', makes no difference to me. It would't be easy to do if you had all the best 14.1 players in the world competing on 8' tables with similar sized pockets. In fact I'd bet against it if they played all day for a week, each having their own table to shoot on.

May get some disagreements here but I think, like golf, the equipment in pool is way better now than it was in Mosconi's era.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I'm not so inclined to dismiss Mosconi's feat because it was during an exhibition rather than a match - and comparing it to records broken during practice. Those exhibitions Mosconi put on were way more akin to a match than to "practice", performances put on in front of many people where there was definite pressure to perform. Besides, how often is a run of 527 balls even possible in competition? Back in Mosconi's day they would hold challenge matches to 1,000 points or more but even these were exhibitions somewhat, not actual tournament competitions. So any shot at the record would almost have to be an "exhibition". To me a record made in practice, even if recorded, would not quite qualify.

One of the things that makes Mosconi's record of 526 so distinctive is that it goes hand in hand with his record of 15. :grin:

Mosconi was the man when I was a kid so his record is admittedly revered by me. But I also understand that records, almost by definition, get broken eventually. On the one hand I'd like the record to stand longer but on the other hand, perhaps someone breaking it will revive straight pool as the true championship game, and I'm all in favor of that.

A corollary question I think would be interesting is: If straight pool had remained the championship game all these years, do you think the record would have been broken by now? Consider that all these race to 100 Challenge matches of 9 ball and 10 ball would instead have been 14.1 games to 2,000 or more points.

 

[Bobby]

I'm not so inclined to dismiss Mosconi's feat because it was during an exhibition rather than a match - and comparing it to records broken during practice. Those exhibitions Mosconi put on were way more akin to a match than to "practice", performances put on in front of many people where there was definite pressure to perform. Besides, how often is a run of 527 balls even possible in competition? Back in Mosconi's day they would hold challenge matches to 1,000 points or more but even these were exhibitions somewhat, not actual tournament competitions. So any shot at the record would almost have to be an "exhibition". To me a record made in practice, even if recorded, would not quite qualify.

One of the things that makes Mosconi's record of 526 so distinctive is that it goes hand in hand with his record of 15. :grin:

Mosconi was the man when I was a kid so his record is admittedly revered by me. But I also understand that records, almost by definition, get broken eventually. On the one hand I'd like the record to stand longer but on the other hand, perhaps someone breaking it will revive straight pool as the true championship game, and I'm all in favor of that.

A corollary question I think would be interesting is: If straight pool had remained the championship game all these years, do you think the record would have been broken by now? Consider that all these race to 100 Challenge matches of 9 ball and 10 ball would instead have been 14.1 games to 2,000 or more points.

I think that if 14.1 had remained the main game all these years that there's a chance that his record might have been beaten in practice but probably not in an exhibition....I really believe there's much more pressure in an exhibition than in practice which makes Mosconi's 526 very special. Mosconi himself said he ran 589 and 608 in practice (on a 9ft table) but he didn't seem nearly particularly proud of those feats as he is of his 526 because those were in solo practice as opposed to the 526 being an exhibition run.