Is taper roll acceptable?

[Tontus]

Thanks for all the great and detailed responses guys!

KJ and Snail, guys, please don't get it twisted...I did not purchase the cue from a maker on this forum, I have no intention of mentioning their name (not before and not now) and I am 100% SURE that they will make good by me, as they have a great reputation. I certainly did not make this thread to start trouble.

I am fairly new to buying high end cues and wanted some cue makers opinions on what THEY thought is acceptable, and following the responses decide on whether or not I would be acting disrespectfully by contacting the maker on an issue such as this...I have been given plenty of answers and will act accordingly....that's it.

 

[Craig Fales]

As a potential custom cue or secondary market cue purchaser, I think it would be great if one of you guys, our very respected cue makers, would put up a clear and concise thread with the definition of warp and taper roll with supporting video evidence to show what you would expect for either of those terms. Maybe a video showing a completely straight and concentric cue/shaft on a lathe spinning and on a table rolling then doing the same for one with a taper roll and one with a warp. Maybe even covering the look of parabolic tapers spinning so that gets covered as well. Would be hard to argue these terms with a good reference sitting out there. Maybe that thread could be a sticky on this and the wanted sections.

Rick I really like the clarity of your definition and your passion for not producing shafts with a taper roll.

I don't think the definitions for warped and taper roll have to be so controversial on this site and vague in customers or sellers minds. It would lead to much better deals going through and to happier customers who buy online without the benefit of being local to the seller.

The truth of the matter is there no such thing as "taper roll" period. The taper of a shaft contributes nothing to whether it's warped or not. Warp being defined as a curve in the length of the shaft.

 

[pooln8r]

The truth of the matter is there no such thing as "taper roll" period. The taper of a shaft contributes nothing to whether it's warped or not. Warp being defined as a curve in the length of the shaft.

Thank you for saying that so clearly. I always took the idea of "taper roll" as a way of saying there's an imperfection of some degree in the shafts taper but that it was still straight from tip to joint when run on a lathe. I just think it would be good if everyone had the same understanding or maybe better terminology as it gets used way too often to represent a warp. I understand people wanting to use this term to show the quality of a cues shaft taper for a more detailed description but people should know that if a cue has a warp, i.e. bend in the shaft, that the word "warp" should be used.

 

[cueman]

I agree a shaft is either warped or it is not. But I disagree with those who say there is no such thing as a taper roll. Until the last 10 to 20 years very few cue makers got their joint pin or shaft insert in perfectly centered. So when the shaft was cut to match the butt the back few inches of the shaft would not be concentric to the front couple of feet of the shaft. This created what was referred to as "Taper Roll". The shaft was not warped, but still did not roll perfect on the table. Really good piloted joints cut down on this problem some, although they did not totally eliminate it. I credit Uni-Loc with pushing the standard for concentric joints and everyone else has had to up the quality of their joint systems to keep up.
Another issue is with the modern pro taper. I would not refer to this as a taper roll, but the least amount of warp is magnified with a pro taper, because the shaft does not even come close to touching the table in the middle. A stiff tapered shaft will not have as noticable of wobble if it is out a few thousandths of an inch.
I personally think a few thousandths of an inch of warp should not bother anyones playing game, and once they use a shaft for very long it will have those few thousandths of wobble. Now if it was a 1/16" of wobble I think that would be unacceptable.

 

[scdiveteam]

I agree a shaft is either warped or it is not. But I disagree with those who say there is no such thing as a taper roll. Until the last 10 to 20 years very few cue makers got their joint pin or shaft insert in perfectly centered. So when the shaft was cut to match the butt the back few inches of the shaft would not be concentric to the front couple of feet of the shaft. This created what was referred to as "Taper Roll". The shaft was not warped, but still did not roll perfect on the table. Really good piloted joints cut down on this problem some, although they did not totally eliminate it. I credit Uni-Loc with pushing the standard for concentric joints and everyone else has had to up the quality of their joint systems to keep up.
Another issue is with the modern pro taper. I would not refer to this as a taper roll, but the least amount of warp is magnified with a pro taper, because the shaft does not even come close to touching the table in the middle. A stiff tapered shaft will not have as noticable of wobble if it is out a few thousandths of an inch.
I personally think a few thousandths of an inch of warp should not bother anyones playing game, and once they use a shaft for very long it will have those few thousandths of wobble. Now if it was a 1/16" of wobble I think that would be unacceptable.

Hi,

Great observation and explanation of the topic Chris and I agree taper roll is a real thing and different than warped. Shaft making is a very complex task and requires careful due diligence to get it to a world class level. Concentricity of the joint, bad facing and over sanding can all create a bad roll to a shaft that is tapered perfect.

I totally agree that holding concentricity is the key and using high quality shaft wood with consistent density throughout the rod. My shafts are parabolic for 16" and contours down to a modern pro taper climb for the stiff hit and I have to get it perfect as you can observe air under the shaft on the table. Any taper roll can easily be seen if there is the slightest error in the geometry.

I use my pins modified as a tool to hold a high level of concentricity and it transfers when moving a shaft from one machine to machine. I cut and face the pin and place a 60 degree center for driving the turning shaft. When the saw is fully engaged on the taper, the X Axis becomes dead on with the centerline. It's like boring accuracy in reverse. Just putting a 60 degree center on the joint side of your shaft is not that accurate. Having the threads in-gauged in the shaft assures the cue has no rumming of the center because the precision metal engagement with the dead center.

I have over 50 of these units in my shop and once they are screwed into the shaft they don't come out until I am done buffing the finish. They also work perfect if you have to whisker face the shaft to make the rings line up. When you put the shaft between centers the pin is always perpendicular or square with the face. Taking the chuck out of the procedure eliminates run out factors and avoids shimming for facing which can amplify bad concentricity if just a little was there to begin with.

Anyone who is battling concentricity or has shaft roll concerns should try this. Since changing to this procedure I stopped worrying about my shafts, because it works perfect.

Rick Geschrey

Concentricity Pin Tool made from my joint pins:

Pin tool also assures concentric sanding of the joint as well as whisker facing after final dimension.

All shafts come out identical because of close concentricity awareness for repeatability and use of high quality shaft wood with uniform density throughout the rod.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Just putting a 60 degree center on the joint side of your shaft is not that accurate. Having the threads in-gauged in the shaft assures the cue has no rumming of the center because the precision metal engagement with the dead center.

Are you sure about that Rich ?
I guess that would apply to butts too.

Since using a metal in there is not a very popular practice ( on can argue that hole can still move, expand and contract, thereby a sealer 60* is actually more reliable ) , I guess throughout the history of cuemaking , makers have not been turning shafts that accurate.

 

[scdiveteam]

Are you sure about that Rich ?
I guess that would apply to butts too.

Since using a metal in there is not a very popular practice ( on can argue that hole can still move, expand and contract, thereby a sealer 60* is actually more reliable ) , I guess throughout the history of cuemaking , makers have not been turning shafts that accurate.

Joey,

Metal is very popular with me because of the outcome and final result I am achieving at this time compared to just putting a 60 degree center in my threaded insert on the shaft and drilling a taping at the end of the process. I still put a center on the end so I can get in there to whisker face between centers or a repair guy can work the piece. The metal pin is very rigid and the machined center on my pin tool has more angular engagement than the center at the leading edge of the pin hole. At least in my case as I use a big pin and putting in too deep center also tends to look bad.

So what you are saying is because everyone always did something one way does not mean you shouldn't have a questioning attitude and try to raise the bar for a higher degree of accuracy. Maybe I should have said "Not as Accurate" instead of "Not that Accurate".

I drill and tap my threads ay .950 after the initial taper has been established between centers. This fixture tool puts the X Axis on the centerline of the threads pronto when tapering is resumed. This method is not about how accurate the center is, it's about not having to re-chuck the piece to thread it using a collet and the effects of even the slightest chuck error. I think that is the root causal effect and what this thread is all about. What Chris brought up concerning concentricity v. taper roll is very important. I hold the shaft in the 6 jaw and hold it tight at .975 without a collet. Once the pin tool is inserted the the tapering begins and I never chuck it again.

Without ego, I believe I can say that my shafts at final are as good as the best in the profession because I have spent more time and money exploring this area than I wish to admit. I also use a detail Program Procedure to evaluate, test, maintain and assess variables from my experience and out come derivatives. That lets me make statements that have basis not subjective crass phrases that come off the tips of your fingers on the keyboard.

Anyone who has ever made a shaft that has not explored every detail in the evolution of that unit will fall short of a world class level of achievement if they fail to keep an open mind. As you well know there is a ton of things going on to build a shaft, more than meets the eye.

I think if you try this way of holding a shaft between centers with a metal pin inserted into a threaded shaft before tapering, you would admit it is more accurate than the conventional thought and taping at the end in a chuck. Do you think the metal male to female surfaces slip or something. I use the slightest of a measured tail stock spring pressure on my set up and it never slips even when I am hogging an initial taper from the 1 " dowel.

Butts are a totally different and because of their larger dia. as they do not tend to create the problems one can encounter because of less deflection properties in the middle while tapering shafts. Shaft have a more complex geometry and the finished product needs to slide between your fingers. Butt tapering has never posed any problems for me personally so it's academic and a moot point.

My good friend is a 70 year old retired tool and die engineer and he came up with this way of doing this about 7 years ago. I did not start using it as a routine until several years ago because I thought the way you do at that time. Boy was I wrong.

I struggled with trying to make my shafts repeatable at a high level for a long time and I only posted this info because I felt someone out there could benefit.

Rick Geschrey

After the taper is at .950 the shaft threads are cut and facing is performed without a collet before tapering thus eliminating a re-chuck within a collet after tapering reaches final dimension. The face and threads become true to the X Axis as soon as the taper is developed on the shaft machine with the tool fixture pin in place.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Butts are a totally different and because of their larger dia. as they do not tend to create the problems one can encounter because of less deflection properties in the middle while tapering. Shaft have a more complex geometry and the finished product need to slide between your fingers. Butt tapering has never posed any problems for me personally so it's academic and a moot point.

I respectfully disagree Rich.
You shaft pin does not help in anyway cutting down deflection in the middle or near the ferrule end of the shaft .
The shaft's center hole is not going to move b/c of the deflection/flex in the middle of the shaft.
That center hole is not affected by re-chucking . When you put the collars on, even if I thread them, I don't whack off the face and re-center.
That center, like the ones in your cue butts , do not get whacked-off until pin installation.
Did DPK use pins in his shaft turning btw ?

 

[scdiveteam]

I respectfully disagree Rich.
You shaft pin does not help in anyway cutting down deflection in the middle or near the ferrule end of the shaft .
The shaft's center hole is not going to move b/c of the deflection/flex in the middle of the shaft.
That center hole is not affected by re-chucking . When you put the collars on, even if I thread them, I don't whack off the face and re-center.
That center, like the ones in your cue butts , do not get whacked-off until pin installation.
Did DPK use pins in his shaft turning btw ?

Joey,

There is nothing else for me to say to you because your arguments seem to be circular. I never said the shaft pin cuts down the deflection that's absurd. You brought the butt thing into a thread about shaft taper roll and I said I never had any trouble with butts and made a comment , that simple.

The whole idea about this method is to drill and tap first without a chuck collet, face, insert the device, establish a taper based on the pin device connected within the threads, then never go back to a chuck again. Everything is between centers. How you hold the piece has nothing to do with the deflection, it has to do with tail stock spring pressure as I pointed out.

Saying the center hole and the face is not affected by re chucking is not my opinion it's your words. How true is your chuck 360 days a year and how often do you adjust it.

I have no idea what Omega DPK did and it was my partner Ray who worked for Mr. Boado.

Do whatever it is you do to make your cues, I am happy with my results.

I build my cues to a standard QA/QC procedure that mirrors 10 CFR 50. Appendix B the standard that all Nuclear Power Safety Related items are manufactured, modified, maintained and decommissioned to as this was my training. When my manual is fully revised past beta testing I believe that I will own the highest proprietary QA/QC standard for cue making in the world. Do you think I am talking BS here Joey? I think not!!!!

All of my methods are backed up with documentation data and facts for raising the bar for statistical process control. While you may not agree with my methods they are formed by lessoned learned from identification of problems and root cause analysis. Taper roll on my may shafts were a problem at one time and now it's gone, Poof!!

If someone wants to try this method, I put it out there as food for thought and for peer check and review. It seems that you are willing to condemn a process you have never tried.

Rick Geschrey

 

[cueman]

I respectfully disagree Rich.
You shaft pin does not help in anyway cutting down deflection in the middle or near the ferrule end of the shaft .
The shaft's center hole is not going to move b/c of the deflection/flex in the middle of the shaft.
That center hole is not affected by re-chucking . When you put the collars on, even if I thread them, I don't whack off the face and re-center.
That center, like the ones in your cue butts , do not get whacked-off until pin installation.
Did DPK use pins in his shaft turning btw ?

What I think you are failing to see about his method is that he can put the threads into the shaft or butt a few thousandths off and his turning centers in those pins then turn the shaft or butt true to the internal threads. so once he is done tapering, there would be no tapping to throw off the shaft to the butt as the threads are already in. I know another guy who puts his pin in his forearm before he cuts his point grooves and all turning on the cue is done on a really true collet chucked up on that pin. Rick is basically doing the same thing without gluing the pin in. DPK milled his threads without a tap to hold concentricity and set a standard we really have to reach for to achieve.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

So you put your pin thingy in the shaft when it's a one inch dowel and do you install your pin in the butt when it's huge oversize also?
Just curious...what happens if the center line on the wood moves during the build? Do you chuck it because it no longer meets QA/QC? or do you just keep shaving and shoveling?

 

[JoeyInCali]

What I think you are failing to see about his method is that he can put the threads into the shaft or butt a few thousandths off and his turning centers in those pins then turn the shaft or butt true to the internal threads. so once he is done tapering, there would be no tapping to throw off the shaft to the butt as the threads are already in. I know another guy who puts his pin in his forearm before he cuts his point grooves and all turning on the cue is done on a really true collet chucked up on that pin. Rick is basically doing the same thing without gluing the pin in. DPK milled his threads without a tap to hold concentricity and set a standard we really have to reach for to achieve.

Chris, pin on the butt isn't the same as tapped hole
on the shaft. If a pinned butt moves, you can still recenter the bottom to zero
the a-joint.
Can't do that with tapped shafts IMHO.

 

[scdiveteam]

What I think you are failing to see about his method is that he can put the threads into the shaft or butt a few thousandths off and his turning centers in those pins then turn the shaft or butt true to the internal threads. so once he is done tapering, there would be no tapping to throw off the shaft to the butt as the threads are already in. I know another guy who puts his pin in his forearm before he cuts his point grooves and all turning on the cue is done on a really true collet chucked up on that pin. Rick is basically doing the same thing without gluing the pin in. DPK milled his threads without a tap to hold concentricity and set a standard we really have to reach for to achieve.

Hi,

Chris understands why the taping first is the basis of the method and as long as your threading is not canted to a point where the extended X axis centerline runs out of the shaft stock. Even so I get the shaft running pretty true without the collet but I don't shim the shaft in the 6 jaw chuck. There is no need to because when the saw fully engages the taper, everything becomes concentric with the thread's centerline pronto. I have also found that by having my 3/8" X 14 tpi CNC Dril Tap ground down a few thou. gives me a much tighter body fit for tapering. After the shaft is buffed, I take out the pin and go in with the normal size one about half way in to form a stepped minor for the very tight fit just before facing occurs.

This thread was about taper roll and I believe a Chris has also stated, it does exist for varying reasons. I don't turn in my shaft to the butt anymore because it can cause taper or table roll. To avoid this roll your need to put on your microscope glasses on and check under every nook and cranny of your method or it will be a re-occuring friend.

I posted this info because I felt it may help others to jump just one of the big hurdles in their cue making journey.

By the way on my CNC floating point cues, I do install the pin first and the same accuracy happens with the concentricity. With my 4 and 5 point veneered cues I put the pin at the end only so I can shim adjust the ponts if needed

This taper roll thread opened up a subject that is the nightmare of all cue makers. Putting the cue on the table and seeing the wiggle or bump. I used to sweat when I had to test a cue on the table even after I got very proficient at turning the shaft into the butt with my router.

With the pin tool, I don't even give it a thought. If I have a non uniform dowel that misbehaves it is culled from the pack and round filed way before .865.

David was the man that changed to way the game could be played as he is my idol as a cue maker. Like a Efron in pool, Tiger Woods in golf or Charlie Parker in Jazz, his genius raised the bar or standard in our profession and a lot of people followed a new path.

Chris Hightower is not too shabby either. There are not too many people here that have not learned or have been inspired in cue making by his book, cues and his ingenuity as a cue machine builder and supplier. I know for sure that I was and am.

Rick Geschrey

Drill taps: Bottom, Normal and Ground down.

 

[cueman]

Chris, pin on the butt isn't the same as tapped hole
on the shaft. If a pinned butt moves, you can still recenter the bottom to zero
the a-joint.
Can't do that with tapped shafts IMHO.

This is true. I never saw where Rick said he never has to reject a shaft. But the shafts that stay turning true gain the benefit of already being tapped dead center. I can see some possible negatives with doing it the way he his doing it, but I can also see the positives from doing it. The positives are related to stopping taper roll and his method seems to eliminate that. A negative would be he might have to trash some shafts that could have been saved if he had not used that method. But only he can decide if losing a few more shafts is worth it to eliminate taper roll. And it sounds like he has decided the benefits out weigh the negatives.

What we all need to realize is there are more ways to build cues than just our way. For Example: I met a guy at a trade show who was building some rather unusual looking cues. He shared with me how he was doing it. He never read a book or watched a DVD or saw anyone working on cues. He just looked at a cue and took some apart and figured out how he was going to make them. He made his own specialized machinery to make them and from what he shared I thought he was doing things the hard way in most aspects, but he was still producing cues and doing it differently than anyone I know. And he told me the enjoyment for him in it all was figuring out how to do it. I have seen another that could get a pin in a butt dead center and never spin the cue butt while installing the pin. He did it with a drill press and a jig to hold the cue. It took him a long time to get that drill press jig perfected, but once it was set up it was fast and accurate.

 

[ratcues]

Chris, the definition of taper roll that you are explaining is unintentionally misleading to a cue buyer. The reason the "taper" is bumping is because the joint is not concentric, as you accurately described it. It has nothing to do with the taper. Calling this a taper roll excuses the maker from making less than perfect joints. A potential buyer thinks that the issue isn't a big deal because 'its just a taper roll' but them tries to have another shaft built or adding an aftermarket LD shaft. That's when the real problem shows its ugly face.

Now, I do not believe for a minute that when a sales thread states 'taper roll' it is describing this phenomenon. I believe it is either a warped shaft or slightly warped forearm causing the middle of the shaft to wobble.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

There is no such thing as "taper roll". It's a made up word, period. It's like the tooth fairy....the troll under the bridge....or dare I say the Easter bunny. It's two words put together by some aspiring person trying to sell a warped or out of round cue. Probably made it up so they could help their chances at making the sale. The cue has either moved off the center line or is out of round, aka..egg shaped, no longer a cylinder.

There may be some merit to reinventing the wheel but in the end, it's still round. A lot of builders do things differently than others and still end up with exceptional results. Maybe not nuclear quality results but results that make people happy. Results that stand up over time. Results with a proven track record. There is a reason I believe the pins/joint work should not be done until you are at finished size. If you can't figure out how to get holes/threads concentric and a joint pin dead center, I suppose you could leave it a little over sized and then cover up your mistakes on your final tapers.

We're talking about cues, poolcues, billiard cues to be exact. Items made from wood and a few other man made and/or natural materials, but mainly wood. We all know about wood. What it does...how it reacts...how it changes in different environments. Trying to hold quality standards outside of what the materials will allow you is chasing a white elephant. Build to the best, exacting standards your customers deserve. If your happy with the results and your customers are happy with the results that all that really matters. If reinventing the wheel is what makes it happen...then everyone is happy.

 

[vasilios]

maybe the term should be: loped shaft

joint runs true:
ferule runs true:
center line to butt true:
taper area incline cam cut:

then their would be:

warped shaft: where the center line through shaft is curved.
joint wobble: offset pin or untrue face or both.

bill

 

[scdiveteam]

So you put your pin thingy in the shaft when it's a one inch dowel and do you install your pin in the butt when it's huge oversize also?
Just curious...what happens if the center line on the wood moves during the build? Do you chuck it because it no longer meets QA/QC? or do you just keep shaving and shoveling?

Hi Dave,

I taper my shafts down to .950 and season for 4 years minimum with my current back log. I am constantly buying new shaftwood to increase my seasoning duration. I then install my 2" inserts and drill and tap the hole. After the pin tool is installed I take .010 cuts down to about .870 or so where I install the decor rings and the joint collar, facing the collar between centers, not a chuck.

Occasionally I find a shaft that blurs a little in the middle at 900 RPM when tested on my wood lathe between cuts and I reject it at that time to be on the safe side. Every shaft that comes out of my shop is 4.0 oz. or better because I hand select all of my planks from a qualified vendor and I dowel everything myself. I know what the shaft weight at final dimension is going to be because I chart these statistics and mark the cues at .950 on down.

Even after picking the straightest and heaviest kiln dried 1/4 sawn 5/4 clear mapel planks, I occasionally see the bad penney. As I stated, I think some rods wobble due to a non uniform density in the middle compared to the ends. Total weight, growth rings, and mineral content have little to do with it IMO, it has to do how the tree grew and other biological & botanical factors unknown to me at this time.

The only way to achieve the shaft nirvana zone is to be proactive and hand pick the planks yourself. I cull out about 6 planks from bunks of 200 pcs. If you don't control the baseline input of your shaft wood your buying dowels that are made from random samples of boards that are all over the place. When you do get a bad one, it seem ridiculous to try to save it. My shaft cost is less than $ 3.00 each and I don't want a pig in the poke, I want reliability through process control and testing at each step along the way. Each cue I build has a history card file that has check offs for the evaluation and testing during the storage and the build.

I put my pin in at finish size except for CNC floating point cues which is done a .920. My butts are built on a solid 30" dowel and movement has not been a problem in that area.

Control all aspects of your process and you will have much tighter control over each outcome. It does not waste or take much time to do so, so why not?

Rick Geschrey

PS: I think a lot of people would have felt a lot better if this thread was labeled "Table Roll" which is what I normally call it. I only called it taper roll in my posts as I was going with the grain not against it. I am sure everyone can agree that "Table Roll" is a better nomenclature for this topic.

 

[conetip]

I have just received a brand new cue straight from a respected maker and the shaft has a slight taper roll....do you think that this is acceptable or should i contact the maker and complain?

Cheers,

Tontus.

What I have seen , is when a cue is made, the pin was not concentric and straight to the centre line of the cue handle.At the joint the pin ran fairly good, about .02mm TIR,the end of the pin was out by about 0.14 mm TIR.It was enough that I could see it was not straight.Initiall, I thought it was a bent pin, untill I mapped the runout to lenght position. That is when I found it was not put in straight, for what ever reason.
The face was trimmed true to the axis of the handle.
The shaft was drilled and as best I can ascertain, is tapped straight.
But the shaft was finished while assembled on the cue handle.
The result is the threaded hole is not concentric to the outer joint ring.
If the cue is not tightened to the same amount as when it was made ,it does not roll or run true.
The fix was a repin and a new shaft. The existing shaft was stressed when turned, so was only straight when torqued to the required amount to make it straight. Without that pressure it was bent . Quite amazing really .
I am a realist, and the shaft does not have to be indicator perfect to still play well.
An error of .4mm (about 1/64 inch)TIR which you can see,does not appear to adversely effect the playability of the shaft. I mean, a shaft held at the joint bends down due to it's own weight by about this amount.I check a shaft for straightness in a vertical home made spindle, that rotates the shaft.
It would be nice to have a set of standards as to what is considered to be straight.

 

[cueman]

Chris, the definition of taper roll that you are explaining is unintentionally misleading to a cue buyer. The reason the "taper" is bumping is because the joint is not concentric, as you accurately described it. It has nothing to do with the taper. Calling this a taper roll excuses the maker from making less than perfect joints. A potential buyer thinks that the issue isn't a big deal because 'its just a taper roll' but them tries to have another shaft built or adding an aftermarket LD shaft. That's when the real problem shows its ugly face.

Now, I do not believe for a minute that when a sales thread states 'taper roll' it is describing this phenomenon. I believe it is either a warped shaft or slightly warped forearm causing the middle of the shaft to wobble.

I didn't make the term up and I am not so sure it is misleading. There is a change of taper because of the joint not being concentric. Like I said this is a term that has been used at least since the late 70's when I was buying a cue from a company, and joints were not as centered back then as they are now.