ABP vs. Berry -- Oh?
- Thread starter UGETTHE6
- Start date
This is going to add at least 2 hours to Barry's speech before the finals...
(Nothing but love for Barry and the players, hope everything turns out ok!)
LOL Now that is funny. The players meeting will be about 6 hours long, bring a pillow and blanket to take a nap!
IMO, the top pro's not playing in the US Open would be a huge detriment to the sport. After reading the threads, the press releases, etc. the ABP has a legitimate beef with Barry and the US Open. But, is boycotting the event the best strategy to help promote the sport long term?
The players want the full prize fund of $180,000 give or take in escrow 30 days before the tournament. Barry disclosed that his current economic structure makes this request impossible. The prize fund including the added money comes from tournament entry fees, the gate, vendors, etc. It may not be the best economic model but it has somewhat worked for 35 years other than issues of slow pay.
There are 3 possible solutions in my opinion:
The 1st solution would be that Barry borrows the money so that it can be put in escrow according to ABP wishes. Then Barry can pay back the borrowed money after collecting all of the receipts. If Barry is unable to do this because of financing issues then he doesn't have the ability to put up the escrow not matter what the ABP does.
The 2nd solution involves the ABP working with Barry to continue the Open by agreeing to a payment structure to the top 4 places if necessary. Paying 25% immediately after the tournament with the balance due in 30, 60, or 90 days is an idea. Interest also can be added to the later payments if necessary. Essentially, the pros are working with Barry to make the event successful.
The 3rd solution is for Barry to cut costs of the tournament by adding less money. I'm not sure that this would even work because he still may not be able to escrow the full amount 30 days in advance. I have a feeling that early entry fees may be used on costs leading up to the Open.
If promoting events was lucrative, then paying out the prize money for an event this large wouldn't be an issue. There would be many other promoters ready to take the place of Barry and Shannon. But, alas there isn't.
The players want the full prize fund of $180,000 give or take in escrow 30 days before the tournament. Barry disclosed that his current economic structure makes this request impossible. The prize fund including the added money comes from tournament entry fees, the gate, vendors, etc. It may not be the best economic model but it has somewhat worked for 35 years other than issues of slow pay.
There are 3 possible solutions in my opinion:
The 1st solution would be that Barry borrows the money so that it can be put in escrow according to ABP wishes. Then Barry can pay back the borrowed money after collecting all of the receipts. If Barry is unable to do this because of financing issues then he doesn't have the ability to put up the escrow not matter what the ABP does.
The 2nd solution involves the ABP working with Barry to continue the Open by agreeing to a payment structure to the top 4 places if necessary. Paying 25% immediately after the tournament with the balance due in 30, 60, or 90 days is an idea. Interest also can be added to the later payments if necessary. Essentially, the pros are working with Barry to make the event successful.
The 3rd solution is for Barry to cut costs of the tournament by adding less money. I'm not sure that this would even work because he still may not be able to escrow the full amount 30 days in advance. I have a feeling that early entry fees may be used on costs leading up to the Open.
If promoting events was lucrative, then paying out the prize money for an event this large wouldn't be an issue. There would be many other promoters ready to take the place of Barry and Shannon. But, alas there isn't.
JAM...If memory serves me correctly, didn't Makabenta delay paying the tournament players in the 2009 or 2010 World 10-ball event for almost a YEAR?...and that was a WPA sanctioned event! IIRC, the WPA did NOTHING to try to force the promoter to "pay up". The same person ran the event again this year, but I think the players were paid on that one. That makes BB look like an angel in comparison, imo.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Mike...You really have no clue. Tell you what...YOU find the sponsors, YOU come up with the $$$, YOU negotiate the tv rights, etc...and then YOU will have nothing to complain about (and of course YOU will have the eternal gratitude of all of us (the pool world)...including the pro players. In the meantime...well, just QUIT your ridiculous rhetoric. I already gave you the correct assessment of the pros as independent contractors, and you agreed with it. Why do you keep beating a dead horse?
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Yeah, ok.
No dead horse here. just discussions, and we've gotten off topic a bit, which is fine too... But where you are wrong is that I have a clue and I know more than you think I do or don't. Obviously if I would have eternal gratitude THEN obviously I am right! You conceed this.
Pool needs more then what it has, and all it has is a ton of amateurs (such as my self) running shittly little events paying pennies.
I am not the answer to pool however, the answer is obvious; we need marketing on a massive scale, and promoters to seek out larger sponsors. Unless you think the players should be seeking sponsors.
Once agian, you have proven nothing, yet you attempt to make people have an opinion diffrent then yours looks stupid. Which isn't working, I spent my own personal money to try and have a tour that was spanning the nation, what have you done? Have you chaulked up some cash to get things moving, to help the betterment of the sport? If you have, I've never heard it mentioned.
No dead horse here. just discussions, and we've gotten off topic a bit, which is fine too... But where you are wrong is that I have a clue and I know more than you think I do or don't. Obviously if I would have eternal gratitude THEN obviously I am right! You conceed this.
Pool needs more then what it has, and all it has is a ton of amateurs (such as my self) running shittly little events paying pennies.
I am not the answer to pool however, the answer is obvious; we need marketing on a massive scale, and promoters to seek out larger sponsors. Unless you think the players should be seeking sponsors.
Once agian, you have proven nothing, yet you attempt to make people have an opinion diffrent then yours looks stupid. Which isn't working, I spent my own personal money to try and have a tour that was spanning the nation, what have you done? Have you chaulked up some cash to get things moving, to help the betterment of the sport? If you have, I've never heard it mentioned.
Some people like to listen to themselves talk.....
Mike...Well, let's see! I've spent the better part of the last 30 years helping people to improve their pool game. I've also spent the last 16 years traveling the USA promoting pool (in a positive light) to tens of thousands of college students and military personel. No doubt my measly $40k-$50k a year in expenses to do this pale in comparison to the money you personally spent to run your DMIRO tour for a few months. LASTLY, I have recommended to the pros, in person, and on here, MANY times, that if you want to make a REAL living at pool, offer up something to the public...ie: doing exhibitions...pro bono and for profit. How's that for "doing something to help the betterment of the sport"? Do those things qualify? 
There are MANY more people on this site who have also done many things for the betterment of the sport.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
There are MANY more people on this site who have also done many things for the betterment of the sport.Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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I am a musician. You could say that since I’ve never really played a billiard tournament or been involved in a billiard community like this that my opinion is wrong or unnecessary. But what I’ve seen from both sides of this argument feels oddly familiar to me, and this is how:
I play death metal. It is a mostly underground genre with a relatively small but fiercely loyal fan base. This means when my band wanted to find success, we were essentially stuck promoting ourselves and just trying to survive while living the lifestyle we were inexplicably drawn to, since nobody really wanted to help us. And wouldn’t you know it? Lots of times we would get shafted by the people running the show. When the end of the night came around and we asked managers about the money (usually just a pittance anyway), we would sometimes just get laughed at or dodged outright. Getting money at all, even months after the fact, would have been fantastic. But we persevered anyway. Our love for what we did compelled us forward to play more shows and spread our passion no matter what the cost. Such is my understanding of true motivation and dedication. This was just me being true to myself, regardless of cost.
Suppose we told some of these promoters “If the money isn’t up front, we’re never playing your venue again.” They would just have a good laugh and book another band, simple as that. And I wouldn’t even want to imagine what kind of shouting/beating I would have endured from my band mates if I made that decision and made a huge deal about it without getting EVERYONE’S input first. For the ABP to expect something different because they are the top pool players is the height of folly.
The idea here is that people, no matter how skilled and in what areas, are replaceable. A player that truly loves his sport and wants to see it flourish would play any match he could, just like my band did any show we could, regardless of reward; because the reward is the game itself, and your fulfillment of your foremost driving passion in life. Sometimes that may mean living below your means, which can seem frustrating when it isn’t your fault, but consider this: You are privileged to live in a time and place where your former hobby now allows you to live without real hardship. If money is ever the more important issue, it is because a man has not found his genuine love in life – The thing he desires most in spite of monetary gain or loss.
I do not expect the ABP to win this fight. They will either be replaced by amateurs that aren’t as obsessed with the money situation, or there will be (already is?) dissension and some ABP players will enter anyway. Those are the two outcomes as I see them. So effectively all they’ve done is screw themselves out of free entry, and screwed their sponsors out of nationwide advertising. I can’t imagine anyone will be too happy when this is over. What Olympian would look at the state of this game right now and think “Hey, they deserve the same respect and attention as us.”
Everyone owes it to themselves to find their own harmony in life, which requires deeply personal and QUIET consideration. Not all this dissonant noise spit back and forth over the internet.
Many years of glorious, titanic billiard competition should not be dismantled over the question “what have you done for me lately?”
I play death metal. It is a mostly underground genre with a relatively small but fiercely loyal fan base. This means when my band wanted to find success, we were essentially stuck promoting ourselves and just trying to survive while living the lifestyle we were inexplicably drawn to, since nobody really wanted to help us. And wouldn’t you know it? Lots of times we would get shafted by the people running the show. When the end of the night came around and we asked managers about the money (usually just a pittance anyway), we would sometimes just get laughed at or dodged outright. Getting money at all, even months after the fact, would have been fantastic. But we persevered anyway. Our love for what we did compelled us forward to play more shows and spread our passion no matter what the cost. Such is my understanding of true motivation and dedication. This was just me being true to myself, regardless of cost.
Suppose we told some of these promoters “If the money isn’t up front, we’re never playing your venue again.” They would just have a good laugh and book another band, simple as that. And I wouldn’t even want to imagine what kind of shouting/beating I would have endured from my band mates if I made that decision and made a huge deal about it without getting EVERYONE’S input first. For the ABP to expect something different because they are the top pool players is the height of folly.
The idea here is that people, no matter how skilled and in what areas, are replaceable. A player that truly loves his sport and wants to see it flourish would play any match he could, just like my band did any show we could, regardless of reward; because the reward is the game itself, and your fulfillment of your foremost driving passion in life. Sometimes that may mean living below your means, which can seem frustrating when it isn’t your fault, but consider this: You are privileged to live in a time and place where your former hobby now allows you to live without real hardship. If money is ever the more important issue, it is because a man has not found his genuine love in life – The thing he desires most in spite of monetary gain or loss.
I do not expect the ABP to win this fight. They will either be replaced by amateurs that aren’t as obsessed with the money situation, or there will be (already is?) dissension and some ABP players will enter anyway. Those are the two outcomes as I see them. So effectively all they’ve done is screw themselves out of free entry, and screwed their sponsors out of nationwide advertising. I can’t imagine anyone will be too happy when this is over. What Olympian would look at the state of this game right now and think “Hey, they deserve the same respect and attention as us.”
Everyone owes it to themselves to find their own harmony in life, which requires deeply personal and QUIET consideration. Not all this dissonant noise spit back and forth over the internet.
Many years of glorious, titanic billiard competition should not be dismantled over the question “what have you done for me lately?”
MaxColey...A well thought-out post! That said, personal satisfaction does not put groceries on the table (as you know). It's great to be altruistic, and want to play for "the sport of it". I'm willing to bet you and ALL of your bandmates actually have real jobs, that you work to allow you to perform at these clubs...'cause if you don't, you're all starving to death (just like a lot of the pro poolplayers). The music biz is much more cutthroat than the pro pool biz...and much more fragmented. I do happen to agree with your two predicted outcomes to this sad situation.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Agreed, generally, though I think the band is likely 1/2 the age of the average pro pool player.
I agree with everything said here.
I really like what you stated Max.. It is a recurring factor that there are individuals that care more about the money than the love of this wonderful game of billiards.. I can tell you this from personal experience, the feeling the comes from within when you are in dead stroke on the pool table is magnificent.. No amount of money can compare to the gratitude one feels when playing at a grand level..
For the saying goes; "For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evils.." Now, don't get me wrong, having the prize money as a bonus for one's committed hard work is great, but inevitably the reason for playing is what really matters.. If a player goes to an event only caring if they will win cash then they are losing from the start.. The passion from the players who respect the game for what it is ( a challenge of the utmost capacity ) comes from within their heart.. Love the GAME and you will be contributing to the future of Billiards itself..
I do agree with the comments on players being more involved in activities such as fund raisers, community events, giving lessons with students of the game, and socializing after match play.. This kind of togetherness can only grow the sport.. I remember being a teenager and watching the top players in the Big events, I loved every minute of it.. But afterwards, when waiting to catch players such as Johnny Archer or Earl Strickland for a Autograph, now that meant a lot to me as a student of the game.. So, in short, becoming a COMMUNITY as a WHOLE would flourish instantly..
I have faith that in due time the future for BILLIARDS will shine abroad, it deserves the best in the end..
Yours Truly, Shaun "Get Some" Wilkie
Shaun...Thanks for posting this, and coming here to share your thoughts with us. I like your style. Perhaps you could share these thoughts with the OTHER pros? Be careful, though, 'cause you might not get invited to be "in the club"! LOL Good luck in your next event, and I hope you do well at the US Open. I'll be watching your matches! :thumbup:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Agreed
Scott, I wasn't challenging you. I was just making a comment that, I have tried to do something good in this sport, much like you are and have been. I do agree that the players must offer up services to the public, and for that comment I will close my argument and concede to you.
You are right and I agree with you, however, I stand by my statement that the players suffer because of bad promoters. So the promoter doesn’t hold and event, no big deal, who hurts? The players because they aren't making money when they need to be making money.
I do agree with my very good friend Shaun Wilkie who I asked to comment on here, that the love of the game should be present; not just love for the money. Shaun and I have been on the road together at a ton of events and when I wake up in the morning I always say "Shaun guess what we get to do today? Play pool!" That is because I love this game and I play for the sport.
I had a long conversation with Mike Davis today and he asked why I always play in these events knowing I am not going to make back my expenses, I do it because I love the game and I want to support it any chance I can. I was going to play all BCA men's points events this year, because I love the game of pool. That and I make enough money that I can afford to travel to all the events and not have to worry about making money. I also plan on playing a EuroTour event, because I love the game.
Scott you are right and I hope the players take your advice, because at the end of the day NO ONE wants to see the US Open go away, and No one wants to see me play pool at the US Open, let alone pay for it, so let’s hope Johnny and the ABP come to an agreement.
Mike...Well, let's see! I've spent the better part of the last 30 years helping people to improve their pool game. I've also spent the last 16 years traveling the USA promoting pool (in a positive light) to tens of thousands of college students and military personel. No doubt my measly $40k-$50k a year in expenses to do this pale in comparison to the money you personally spent to run your DMIRO tour for a few months. LASTLY, I have recommended to the pros, in person, and on here, MANY times, that if you want to make a REAL living at pool, offer up something to the public...ie: doing exhibitions...pro bono and for profit. How's that for "doing something to help the betterment of the sport"? Do those things qualify?
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott, I wasn't challenging you. I was just making a comment that, I have tried to do something good in this sport, much like you are and have been. I do agree that the players must offer up services to the public, and for that comment I will close my argument and concede to you.
You are right and I agree with you, however, I stand by my statement that the players suffer because of bad promoters. So the promoter doesn’t hold and event, no big deal, who hurts? The players because they aren't making money when they need to be making money.
I do agree with my very good friend Shaun Wilkie who I asked to comment on here, that the love of the game should be present; not just love for the money. Shaun and I have been on the road together at a ton of events and when I wake up in the morning I always say "Shaun guess what we get to do today? Play pool!" That is because I love this game and I play for the sport.
I had a long conversation with Mike Davis today and he asked why I always play in these events knowing I am not going to make back my expenses, I do it because I love the game and I want to support it any chance I can. I was going to play all BCA men's points events this year, because I love the game of pool. That and I make enough money that I can afford to travel to all the events and not have to worry about making money. I also plan on playing a EuroTour event, because I love the game.
Scott you are right and I hope the players take your advice, because at the end of the day NO ONE wants to see the US Open go away, and No one wants to see me play pool at the US Open, let alone pay for it, so let’s hope Johnny and the ABP come to an agreement.
Let's start knocking on doors....ready?
Max my friend, this has to be the all time greatest first post ever to appear on the AZ Forums. Bravo to you for having the courage to speak your mind and share your thoughts with us. Everything you had to say is relevant to this discussion. Thank you for taking the time to offer your opinion on this delicate subject.
Today I read an article about Bob McPhee, who was awarded the Medal of Courage at the Wrestling Hall of Fame banquet. Bob was a star wrestler in high school who suffered severe spinal cord injuries that ended his athletic career and nearly his life. He is a quadriplegic with little movement in any part of his body. Despite his extreme handicap he persevered in the face of one hardship after another to become a sportswriter in his home state of Maine. He covers high school sports and has done so for nearly 30 years.
Bob must get around in a wheelchair and needs a voice synthesiser just to speak. Covering high school sports is not a glamorous job or a well paying one either. He does it because he loves it and it keeps him connected to the only thing that is important to him - SPORTS!
One notable remark made by his old wrestling coach really hit home for me. He said and I quote, "We live in a era of whiners, people who want only to take, take, take and never to give. Bob is not a whiner." When Bob had his opportunity to speak, out of necessity he made his remarks short. Talking requires a huge effort on his part. His final remark brought tears to the eyes of all present and thunderous applause. Bob said merely, "I feel fortunate, there are many people worse off than me."
There is a lesson here Max, that I'm sure you understand. Hopefully a few others may get the message.
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