Low deflection shafts and higher end custom cues

[dr9ball]

They're aesthetic in that they're a matter of taste and don't have any objective impact on the cue's performance.

pj
chgo

I agree with alot of what you've said above Pat, but if these "matters of tastes" effect the "players" performance then they are important. I've never seen a cue hit a ball with out a player moving the cue. I think we must always consider the player when talking about the performance. As an example, in golf, I play with longer clubs that have longer than standard shafts. Although a standard shaft Ping club may be a "higher performance" than my Dunlop club, I still play better with a longer club. My assertion which you may disagree with, is simply, If something about the feel/sound/vibration etc. of the aftermarket LD shafts (Predator, OB1 etc) bothers a player to the point of reducing their performance during play, then the after market LD shaft just isn't for them.


I've played with both LD aftermarket and the shafts that came with my cues and I still prefer the standard shafts that come from my cue makers, though they are not really what I'd call high deflection.

 

[lfigueroa]

They're aesthetic in that they're a matter of taste and don't have any objective impact on the cue's performance.

pj
chgo

How do we know that?

If I like a certain sound and/or vibration from my cue it's probably because those things are indicators of the cue's physical attributes and performance, that neither you or I understand. But if an experienced player likes those things in a pool cue and they make them believe they play better with said cue there's a good chance that there's something going on performance-wise that involves those characteristics.

I mean, it's not like there has been in-depth scientific work done on this. I know we had the Jacksonville Project and Mike Page putting a C-clamp on the end of a shaft and Dan Tolus' cue wrapping experiment and an Iron Willie, but none of those is exactly splitting the atom when it comes to research about pool cue design and performance.

So, personally I don't believe it's all about aesthetics.

Lou Figueroa
surprise

 

[Maniac]

Listen, if a skilled player can run a ball down a rail using low/outside english, make the shot and bring the cueball 3/4 back up the table for position on the next ball, or draw a cueball full-table length, or use high/inside and go four rails for position, does it matter if he/she is using a $10,000 Balabuska or a $30 Viper cue? I can do anything with a Rage cue with a fifty-cent Triangle tip on it that I can do with a Southwest. In the hands of someone that is totally proficient at pool (not me ), they could do even MORE with the cheap cue. I don't care how a cue "hits", or how it is balanced, or how much it is revered by others. All I want out of a cue is what PJ has been refering to as performance. Can I make balls with it and put the cueball where I want it is all that matters to me. Okay, I have spent some money on some cues that I currently own not because I can shoot better with them, but is more like a "pride of ownership" type of thing. Just window dressing, pure and simple. I run just as many racks here at the house with $27 Rage cues and $75 Players cues as I do at the poolhall/bars using my more expensive equipment.

How can anyone come on here and say something negative/condescending about someones preferences or what they want to spend their money on? If the OP wants to put an aftermarket shaft on his Hercek, who gives a fat-rat's-a** about it? Damn, there's some touchy-a**ed people on this forum You'd think someone blasphemed God or somethin'.

Maniac

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
They're aesthetic in that they're a matter of taste and don't have any objective impact on the cue's performance.

Lou:
How do we know that?

I think we know it in two ways:

1. The same way we know there are no Leprechauns, even though some people believe in them - because if there was we'd have seen tangible evidence of it by now.

2. Because there's only one widely accepted objective performance characteristic for cues: squirt. And that has been shown pretty convincingly to have nothing much to do with anything but shaft end mass.

If I like a certain sound and/or vibration from my cue it's probably because those things are indicators of the cue's physical attributes and performance, that neither you or I understand.

We may not understand it, but if it's a performance feature we can measure the results by comparing with the performance of other cues. When high-end cues perform differently than cheaper ones in ways that we can see and measure I'll be the first to acknowledge it, but so far lots of tests (including many by me) haven't shown any difference.

...if an experienced player likes those things in a pool cue and they make them believe they play better with said cue there's a good chance that there's something going on performance-wise that involves those characteristics.

I think there's something going on with the player's personal performance because he's using a stick he likes. I don't think it's the stick's performance per se.

pj
chgo

 

[Celtic]

Agree completely. However, once you get to the idea of calling that set of characteristics "good", that is where the subjective human position comes in. This is because many people prefer a different kind of hit. For some no vibration and a very dead cue is desirable. For others, they want to hear the cue sing. These are likely different sets of vibration characteristics. I do agree that those characteristics can be objectively measured, though I doubt there is anything about those characteristics that make them objectively "good".

Good posts on this so far!!

KMRUNOUT

True but at the end of the day we get the Southwest's, the Herceks, ect.... Every single time we get a "What are the best hitting custom cues?" thread on AZB the same names come up over and over. That becomes statistically significant and IMO the "hit" of a cue that gets certain cues recognizes as top shooters has certain physical characteristics that are probably measurable.

 

[softshot]

2. Because there's only one widely marketed characteristic for cues: squirt. And that has been shown pretty convincingly to have nothing much to do with anything but shaft end mass.

fixed that for ya

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
2. Because there's only one widely [accepted] marketed (<-softshot's edit) characteristic for cues: squirt. And that has been shown pretty convincingly to have nothing much to do with anything but shaft end mass.

softshot:
fixed that for ya

Name some others.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

True but at the end of the day we get the Southwest's, the Herceks, ect.... Every single time we get a "What are the best hitting custom cues?" thread on AZB the same names come up over and over. That becomes statistically significant

Sure, but what does it signify? Effective word-of-mouth advertising?

and IMO the "hit" of a cue that gets certain cues recognizes as top shooters has certain physical characteristics that are probably measurable.

Again, a measurable characteristic isn't necessarily a performance characteristic. Color is measurable.

pj
chgo

 

[softshot]

Name some others.

pj
chgo

pivot point, 1 piece vs 2 piece. and how it relates to the travel of the sine wave reverberation aka "hit".

LD "performance" is crap when it comes to jumping, and Masse.

Power breaking with an LD shaft is a BAD Idea..

the ONLY place where LD even comes into play are extra long shots with a ton of sidespin.. and if those shots are a major part of your game.. then some lessons on basic CB control might be in order..

LD is a gimmick and it's never been anything else.

I want a cue that I can play pool with not one narrowed down for a single obscure shot type and then marketed until it's taken as a fact by people who should KNOW better.

I don't think Joe Blows game jumped any higher when he switched to LD.. I think the marketing has him scared it will drop off if he goes back to quality maple..and that is why he defends it so vigorously.

 

[lfigueroa]

I think we know it in two ways:

1. The same way we know there are no Leprechauns, even though some people believe in them - because if there was we'd have seen tangible evidence of it by now.

2. Because there's only one widely accepted objective performance characteristic for cues: squirt. And that has been shown pretty convincingly to have nothing much to do with anything but shaft end mass.


We may not understand it, but if it's a performance feature we can measure the results by comparing with the performance of other cues. When high-end cues perform differently than cheaper ones in ways that we can see and measure I'll be the first to acknowledge it, but so far lots of tests (including many by me) haven't shown any difference.


I think there's something going on with the player's personal performance because he's using a stick he likes. I don't think it's the stick's performance per se.

pj
chgo

I think the reason is that there hasn't been enough science time put in when it comes to pool cues hitting pool balls.

I know we won't agree on this, but after 40 years or so of playing, I know that there is something about certain pool cues that I have never seen explained by you, Mike, Bob, or Ron, et al.

The squirt thing is easy enough, but until there's more work done, I will still think that there are things going on with some pool cues, that is not going on with others, and it ain't all about squirt. Somehow some players are able to feel and experience that.

Lou Figueroa

 

[softshot]

PJ saying deflection is the only thing important about a cue

would be like Issac Newton claiming Gravity is the only force of consequence in the universe

simply because it's the only one he knows about..

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think the reason is that there hasn't been enough science time put in when it comes to pool cues hitting pool balls.

I know we won't agree on this, but after 40 years or so of playing, I know that there is something about certain pool cues that I have never seen explained by you, Mike, Bob, or Ron, et al.

The squirt thing is easy enough, but until there's more work done, I will still think that there are things going on with some pool cues, that is not going on with others, and it ain't all about squirt. Somehow some players are able to feel and experience that.

Lou Figueroa

Well, I know from experience that you have a more refined feel for your cue than I do for mine, so I'm willing to allow that there may be "performance characteristics" that you can sense and I can't, and that haven't been generally articulated yet.

So there.

pj <- put that in your pipe, Mr. F
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ saying deflection is the only thing important about a cue

would be like Issac Newton claiming Gravity is the only force of consequence in the universe

simply because it's the only one he knows about..

Simply because it's the only one anybody knows about.

Unless you're about to enlighten us...

pj
chgo

 

[lfigueroa]

Well, I know from experience that you have a more refined feel for your cue than I do for mine, so I'm willing to allow that there may be "performance characteristics" that you can sense and I can't, and that haven't been generally articulated yet.

So there.

pj <- put that in your pipe, Mr. F
chgo

lol, OK, but just a couple of puffs.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
Name some other cue performance characteristics than squirt.

softshot:
pivot point

That's squirt.

pivot point:
1 piece vs 2 piece. and how it relates to the travel of the sine wave reverberation aka "hit"

You haven't named a performance characteristic.

pivot point:
LD "performance" is crap when it comes to jumping, and Masse.
Power breaking with an LD shaft is a BAD Idea..

These are valid but easily compensated for.

pivot point:
the ONLY place where LD even comes into play are extra long shots with a ton of sidespin..

Not true.

pivot point:
LD is a gimmick and it's never been anything else.

Not true.

pivot point:
I want a cue that I can play pool with not one narrowed down for a single obscure shot type

Every shot with sidespin is "a single obscure shot type"? LOL.

pj
chgo

 

[softshot]

Simply because it's the only one anybody knows about.

Unless you're about to enlighten us...

pj
chgo

pivot point and how it relates to your natural bridge

if they match up exactly. you get zero squirt. I learned that from your buddy Mike Page. you are even mentioned in the video I learned it from.

see lightning is actually a new force (electro-magnatism) and not simply gravity pulling the light down to earth

now all we need is Oppenheimer and Curie to step in and show us 2 others

and soon we realize Newton hung his hat on the weakest of the 4 forces..

 

[Celtic]

Sure, but what does it signify? Effective word-of-mouth advertising?

No, I have hit with many high end cues known for their hit and there is a discernable difference in the feel of the hit, and the top end cues known fir their hit trend towards a singular type of feel that has a very consise and brief feedback on cueball contact. Schon when they were considered top hitting cues also had that same type of feel.

The game is not played by robots, feel matters as this game has a great deal of emphasis on the mental component and part of confidence is liking the way equipment feels and reacts as you play a sport.

 

[softshot]

That's squirt.

balls squirt shafts deflect so squirt is not a cue characteristic..

low end mass is one cue based way to compensate for squirt.. bridging at the pivot point is another..

and I speculate that the pivot point is related to sine wave reverberation aka hit.. I believe it is possible to manipulate that point to an extent utilizing taper and wood quality..

now back to your regularly scheduled Predator Commercial

 

[dr_dave]

No, I have hit with many high end cues known for their hit and there is a discernable difference in the feel of the hit, and the top end cues known fir their hit trend towards a singular type of feel that has a very consise and brief feedback on cueball contact. Schon when they were considered top hitting cues also had that same type of feel.

The game is not played by robots, feel matters as this game has a great deal of emphasis on the mental component and part of confidence is liking the way equipment feels and reacts as you play a sport.

"Feel," "hit," and "playability" are all qualitative attributes for which the interpretation can vary a great deal from one person to the next. FYI, I have a resource page explaining some of the factors here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#feel​

Check it out.

I think the hardness of the tip is the probably the single most important factors in determining the "hit" or "feel" of the cue.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

balls squirt shafts deflect so squirt is not a cue characteristic..

low end mass is one cue based way to compensate for squirt.. bridging at the pivot point is another..

The natural pivot length of a cue is certainly a measurable and well-defined shaft characteristic. And it is directly related to the end mass of the shaft. It is also directly related to the amount of squirt (cue ball deflection) the shaft produces.

I personally don't like the use of the word "deflection" for the reasons listed here, but I think we're stuck with it.

I speculate that the pivot point is related to sine wave reverberation aka hit..

I think the transverse vibration that in part define the "hit" of a cue are more related to shaft stiffness. Endmass can be affected by stiffness, but endmass can also be changed independent of stiffness. For more info, see:

endmass and stiffness​

now back to your regularly scheduled Predator Commercial

Whenver I see a "commercial" for a low-squirt shaft, I am always quick to point out both the advantages and disadvantages of an LD shaft.

Regards,
Dave