A spice of "shoulder" in a pendulum stroke

M

molotokas

Registered
I share a passion for pool... and pool not being a mysterious game before I started practising regularly, suddenly became a venture full of mysteries.

My question regards a stroke. I used to have trouble putting spin on a CB, I thought it was due to poor table conditions, slow cloth and rails. After reading some books, I figured, that conditions left alone only my stroke and balance could be the issue.

I never had an instructor but I feel my stance is fairly stable and i can get into it easily. Therefore, stance having an alibi, my stroke went to trial. And after working on it, I developed a very loose pendulum stroke, loved it. It worked really good but I still could not manage to add a desired amount of spin (whether vertical or horizontal) on CB.

One day my shoulder started moving, well not dropping but moving. The way Bustamente, Reyes and recently I saw Immonen do it, just little movement on a backswing. Well surprisingly, my shot making got better and amounts of spin I can add on a CB are remarkable. I don't know the science behind it but i can tell what I feel. When my shoulder is working I can perceive the weight of a cue better, makes me feel more comfortable. And rather than stroking a cue into a ball it feels as if I am throwing a cue into a ball (shoulders are made throwing aren't they)?

So which do you think is more likely:
a) shoulder movement was just an unconscious fix to a problem somewhere else in my technique.
b) a very loose wrist drives the shoulder in
c) something else??

However, I seem to enjoy that feeling of throwing a cue (don't be mistaken cue stays in my hand), can I just stick to it or should i go back to pendulum?
 
Spin is the result of where the tip makes contact with the cue ball, reletive to center ball, and the direction the cue is moving at contact. Anything you do before or after that really doesn't change what kind of spin you will be applying.
Steve
 
molotokas said:
I share a passion for pool... and pool not being a mysterious game before I started practising regularly, suddenly became a venture full of mysteries.

My question regards a stroke. I used to have trouble putting spin on a CB, I thought it was due to poor table conditions, slow cloth and rails. After reading some books, I figured, that conditions left alone only my stroke and balance could be the issue.

I never had an instructor but I feel my stance is fairly stable and i can get into it easily. Therefore, stance having an alibi, my stroke went to trial. And after working on it, I developed a very loose pendulum stroke, loved it. It worked really good but I still could not manage to add a desired amount of spin (whether vertical or horizontal) on CB.

One day my shoulder started moving, well not dropping but moving. The way Bustamente, Reyes and recently I saw Immonen do it, just little movement on a backswing. Well surprisingly, my shot making got better and amounts of spin I can add on a CB are remarkable. I don't know the science behind it but i can tell what I feel. When my shoulder is working I can perceive the weight of a cue better, makes me feel more comfortable. And rather than stroking a cue into a ball it feels as if I am throwing a cue into a ball (shoulders are made throwing aren't they)?

So which do you think is more likely:
a) shoulder movement was just an unconscious fix to a problem somewhere else in my technique.
b) a very loose wrist drives the shoulder in
c) something else??

However, I seem to enjoy that feeling of throwing a cue (don't be mistaken cue stays in my hand), can I just stick to it or should i go back to pendulum?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what kind of shoulder movement you're seeing with Mika, Reyes and Bustamante. Are they pumping their strokes before they shoot and then leveling off on the final stroke, or are the doing it on their final stroke? Do they do it all the time or only some of the time? Are you viewing them from a certain angle? Sometimes the angle you're watching them from gives a certain illusion.

What you may be seeing them do may not be the same thing you're doing. How do you know your shoulder is moving? Do you feel it or have you seen it?
 
Delivering the cue ball precisely to the intended target with the intended spin and speed is the ultimate goal. How we individually accomplish this goal is in one way or another unique to each of us.

One common thing I've seen in beginning and even intermediate players is the tendency to tighten their grip on the cue at the last second in anticipation of contact with the CB. This will really mess up the delivery of the CB and effect your ability to apply english properly.

Tensing muscles during your stroke, anywhere is not a good thing. It sounds like you have found a comfortable stroke that isn't causing you to tense up.

If what you are doing is comfortable to you and lets you accomplish the ultimate goal, I say go with it. Trying to emulate another player can cost you a lifetime of fighting what your body wants to do.

On the other hand, if what you are doing is still not netting the results you want, then it's back to the drawing board so to speak. Having a good instructor watch you play will certainly give you insight to any obvious problems.

Another complication to this great game is the mental aspect of it. We can polish our own perfect strokes, have it with us one moment, and in the next, our mind, focus, concentration, confidence issues can leak in and and screw us up all over again. I think it's important to work on both the mental and physical parts of the game equally to help avoid that. But if all this stuff were easy, we'd probably be bored with it in no time. :smile:
 
molotokas said:
...
So which do you think is more likely:
a) shoulder movement was just an unconscious fix to a problem somewhere else in my technique.
b) a very loose wrist drives the shoulder in
c) something else??
...
Click to expand...
a) is what I think.

You were not getting spin on the ball because you were not hitting the cue ball far enough from center. There are several reasons why beginners have that problem. The major one seems to be that they never learned how to chalk. Seriously. After a few (or a hundred) miscues, they learn that they cannot hit more than 3mm from the center of the ball. Or more exactly, their arm learns that, and does not let them hit off-center. I've seen this problem in many, many students.

So, by changing your mechanics drastically, you have allowed your arm to think it is doing something entirely new and it is not bound by your old habits and mistakes. Or at least that could be what's happening.
 
I've often seen elbow drop being caused by a tight grip. Less common is the shooter is trying to force a follow through, or thinking that they have to use their shoulder to power the shot.

Other motions of the elbow are, as Bob noted, probably the result of the shooter correcting another error.
 
I'm in agreement with both Bob and Mark. Is it imperative that the shoulder is not involved in striking the CB? No. In the best example of a pure pendulum swing the shoulder does not move at all...only the forearm, from the elbow down. A 'too tight' grip on the cue will enhance involving the shoulder. What is does is make the whole swing more complicated and prone to small errors in ball address (which is very likely why you are having problems with putting vertical spin on the CB). Finding a good instructor, who uses video analysis, can help you "see" where the problem is, and teach you how to correct it, if you choose to. The bottom line is that if you are feeling better about hitting the CB, that is what's important. There are many ways to strike the CB...pendulum is just one, albeit the one I believe is easiest to learn, and objectively easiest to correct when something goes awry.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Wow, thank you for replies…

Francrimi,
See, I was not trying to emulate anyone, just play my game and shoulder came from nowhere. I thought that it looked something like those guys are doing. But now when you asked me those questions, I started wondering, am I really sure I do the same thing….
BTW, this is Immonen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSsEki_hj2Q , go to 8:43 for example.

3andstop,
I pay significant attention to the tightness of my grip, it is loose throughout the entire stroke, yet I do not know whether other parts are relaxed as they should be. I’ll try to analyze that.

So far as the mental aspect of a game… Well there are bad days and good ones, but I try to concentrate on the present and trust my practice, works for me. And I am pretty new to the whole thing, so my game was never challenged properly.

Bob Jewett,
Chalking… Hmm, I think I do it right, recently started to look at my tip more often but never had a trouble of miscueing, I can extend my tip from a centre pretty far, yet whether I had hit it where I intend might be a whole another story.

Scott Lee,
I would love to see an instructor but in my area pool is dead… So I have to figure out the important stuff myself. Again, my grip is relaxed and I am very satisfied with what my whole arm does in action.

To all,
As far as I understood, there can be some variance in technique and what’s right is not always comfortable and what’s comfortable is not always right. Finding a balance between those is the key…

I know instructors collected their knowledge to be exchanged for a piece of gold, but if you are bothered to look at me I could record myself playing.
 
Thanks for posting the link to Mika's stroke. He does pump his stroke like the Filipino players. He loops it around at the end of his backstroke instead of stroking straight in and out on the same plane. It's just a different school of thought, and it definitely works for the Filipino players, and obviously for Mika as well. I'm not sure how it affects the application of sidespin, though, if it even does at all.

Feel free to post a link to your playing. Just be warned that you will probably get differing opinions since there are different schools of thought that post here. That could help you or confuse you.
 
Molotokas,

i m also really a fan of the *pendulum-principle*- also because of the reasons Scott shown up in his posting. Even if we say (correctly), that each is individual-the pendulum could be taught to everyone. But if a player played another *style* for years or even a decade or more, there is just one person who could change it-the player himself. If you re an unexperienced guy, right on the beginning with your pool-life it will be not that hard. Just for players who are already a bit advanced and the most are afraid to loose all their abilities.(i have here also another opinion)

towards the shoulder-drop-discussion. Many players talking about the shoulder-drop-especially if they *think* they re seeing a drop by watching a pro. But imo the most examples are just moving their shoulder/ellbow AFTER the impact (cue<----> cueball)-and that wouldn t matter at all.

To really get rid of a burned in old habit can be painful :p but it can be done for sure with a qualified helper. It s just about you, and your willing. If you really want it, it will work- i m sure.

lg
Ingo
 
Nice. Very well done. Not quite from the side so it is tough to see your stroking arm.

For sure you need a longer SET position.

Good job
randyg
 
Interesting how all our movements interact. You can see during your warm up strokes on both videos that with the slight pump handle movement of your arm, your head also moves up and down. Another reason we stress minimizing any unnecessary body movement.

Steve
 
My philiosophy regarding shoulder movements on the backstroke is, when you move your cue off line you have to do extra work to get it back on line before you hit the cue ball. So you might as well make things easier for yourself by minimizing any moving parts on the backstroke.

As for Mika, I was noticing that his shoulder movement is not as pronounced on his final stroke. At least that is what I was seeing from video that was posted.
 
molotokas said:
Thank you for replies,

Yesterday I brought my camera into the pool hall and took some shots.
Side: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJlIEf015RE
Back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOluPbgjFIw

Even though an opinion can be split on this issue, I would like to know what experienced people think of this. Thus, any comments are welcome :)
Click to expand...

Your style reminds me of Bustamante. He is certainly successful with it. That loose wrist thing you do makes me a little nervous, but hey, you're stroke looks straight. I'd say go with it for awhile and see what happens.

I think it's important to experiment. Sometimes the experiments turn out well and sometimes they don't --- but you shouldn't think of it as a negative thing when they don't, because each time you try something, you learn something. Learning is good.
 
I posted this awhile back to a very similar question... The OP in the other thread called it a bump... I think I like a spice of shoulder better LOL

Sorry if I seem like the old guy that tells the same story over and over if you already read it....

The shoulder action where the shoulder is rotated upwards during the back stroke and then dropped is often called the pump handle.... I have witnessed it being done by lots of pros to the point that it led me to try and figure out what the purpose might be since it is not taught but tends to show up frequently.

My conclusion was they are letting gravity or the elastic tension of the muscles used in the shoulder's rotation release to start the stroke when they let the elbow drop back into the starting position. The cue is started forward by the shoulder drop and the bicep contracts to add power.

As to what is the benefit? I could see 2 answers. 1)You are not starting the forward stroke from a stopped position using a muscle contraction. 2)It works like a waggle and lends itself to getting into a rhythm.

It does add a timing variable and another moving part so it likely would not be something that would be taught. Instructors do their best to simplify the fundamentals and teach a stroke that is both accurate and repeatable. I would think the bump would be in the realm of advanced technique and could be both useful or harmful depending on the player.

Get the fundamentals down and then you can add your own personal adjustments or idiosyncrasies. Just never be surprised when one of them turns into a "bad" habit that you may have to go back to an instructor to fix.
 
Good stuff people,

Recording one self is very useful... The first thing I noticed, as did someone else here, was my moving head, fixed it by staying a bit up, like an inch or so. Also, earlier my cue would bump into my chin and throw me out of line, that went away as well. One shot - two birds.

Francrimi, I was experimenting with my wrist couple of weeks, looking what it can and can't do. I like to experiment, but wrist motion won't do - negatively affects shot making, puts unwanted english etc. So through the window it goes. I just make a loop with my pointy and a thumb and lay the cue in there (loosely), throughout an entire stroke wrist stays... well it just holds a cue, elbow and shoulder do the rest.

RandyG, yes.... It looks as if I am in a hurry. Trying to make longer set position a habit, results are great.

As for adding unneeded timing variable. Probably it would have been more difficult trying to learn this water pump stroke. But since it came naturally, I kind of like it and so far my game keeps progressing. So I will stick to it and see if it's going to betray me sometime in future.

Good replies, thank you
 
Last edited:
I myself have this pump handle stroke that many tell me to straighten out. I can honestly say it was developed into my mechanics for 2 reasons. One, was me trying to develop a more fluid stroke. Two, was me basically trying to really loosen up my arm for comfort. I see Mika all the time @amsterdam here in nyc. He does have a pretty pronounced pump handle stroke. The one thing I did notice about his stroke is that the final stroke gets dead straight and level to accomplish the shot. I noticed this same style with many Filipino shooters as well, with the final stroke being dead straight for the shot.

This could also be do to your comfort level a player has of delivering the final stroke properly; where the player doesn't really care how level the stroke is during the preshot routine. Basically just worrying about loosening up before executing the shot. I find that keeping a level stroke from beginning to execution enables you to visual where and how much speed you're putting on the ball. Could work either way. You have champions with both styles.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top