Major downsides to a snooker stance in pool?

OnTheMF

I know things
Silver Member
Over the last few months I've been playing around with my stance. In the past I have used a typical open pool stance, simply because that's what I saw everyone else doing. I never thought much about it until recently, when I watched Max Eberly's DVD. I know he recommends the open pool stance, but it got me tinkering with things until I tried the snooker stance. Instantly I was shooting straighter, seeing angles better, making cuts more consistently and in general playing better pool than ever. I have a good theory on why, but I'll save that for another thread.

The question is, what are the downsides to the snooker stance? I see a lot of pool players who transitioned from snooker seem to adopt the open pool stance over time. And a very high percentage of the pro's use the pool stance (or close to it). There has to be a good reason for that?
 
Depends on your body. If you are rather tall, a snooker stance will probably be quite uncomfortable in the long run because it requires you to bend over a little more to keep your back leg straight. Pool tables are slightly shorter than snooker tables and you tend to shoot from the rail more often in pool so this is a bigger issue in pool than in snooker. Also, if you are an elbow dropper like 99% of the pool world, a pool stance tends to allow for a more obstacle free follow through.
 
Over the last few months I've been playing around with my stance. In the past I have used a typical open pool stance, simply because that's what I saw everyone else doing. I never thought much about it until recently, when I watched Max Eberly's DVD. I know he recommends the open pool stance, but it got me tinkering with things until I tried the snooker stance. Instantly I was shooting straighter, seeing angles better, making cuts more consistently and in general playing better pool than ever. I have a good theory on why, but I'll save that for another thread.

The question is, what are the downsides to the snooker stance? I see a lot of pool players who transitioned from snooker seem to adopt the open pool stance over time. And a very high percentage of the pro's use the pool stance (or close to it). There has to be a good reason for that?
Picking a terminology nit: I believe "open stance" refers to facing more away from the cue; "closed stance" refers to facing more toward the cue. I believe the typical snooker stance is more "open" than the typical pool stance.

My problem with an open snooker stance is that I have to hold my stick closer to my body to get it under my eyes, which puts my hip in the way of my stroke.

I like the open snooker stance because I don't have to turn my head as much to the side to sight along the stick.

On balance I choose a more "closed" pool stance.

pj
chgo
 
Over the last few months I've been playing around with my stance. In the past I have used a typical open pool stance, simply because that's what I saw everyone else doing. I never thought much about it until recently, when I watched Max Eberly's DVD. I know he recommends the open pool stance, but it got me tinkering with things until I tried the snooker stance. Instantly I was shooting straighter, seeing angles better, making cuts more consistently and in general playing better pool than ever. I have a good theory on why, but I'll save that for another thread.

The question is, what are the downsides to the snooker stance? I see a lot of pool players who transitioned from snooker seem to adopt the open pool stance over time. And a very high percentage of the pro's use the pool stance (or close to it). There has to be a good reason for that?

OnTheMF:

Be careful with who you consider to be "ex-snooker" or from a snooker background. For example, Darren Appleton, although he may've played snooker in his past, was primarily an English Blackball (8-ball, with reds and yellows) player. As another example, Alex Pagulayan, although he played snooker occasionally in his past (and he does have a jam-up snooker game), was and is primarily a *pool* player.

The true ex-snooker players never leave their roots. Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Steve Davis, Mark Grey, Tony Drago, etc. all still have their snooker stance. Once you learn how to do this stance *properly*, it never leaves you. It's automatic, precisely because it lends itself so well to naturally putting all your body parts and joints facing into (not away from, as in the pool stance) and in-line with the shot.

The downsides to the snooker stance? Three things:

1. It's not easy to adopt. For one thing, when you're not used to it, it puts strain on your planted-leg's calf and hamstring muscles. ("Planted-leg" is the leg on the same side as your grip hand -- your right leg if you're right-handed.) However, all that issue is, is stretching the muscles to make them do something they've never done before, or on any consistent basis. It's the same as when you keep your legs completely straight, and you bend over to try to touch your head to your knees. Since you don't do that all that often, it's uncomfortable. It hurts, in fact. But do it enough, and not only will the muscles adapt, but it will be no big deal after that. It will come, and feel, natural, once those muscles stretch and adapt.

2. Age. As we age, our muscles get tighter, and their range of motion atrophies. So that locked stance is not as comfortable as it used to be when we were younger. Solution? Stretch a bit before playing. And play often, to keep those muscles tuned.

3. Range of motion. Let's face it, for breaking purposes, you can't beat the pool stance. The snooker stance locks you in place for alignment and accuracy reasons. The pool stance, however, allows the body to move, allowing more power for e.g. break shots. You can really throw your body into it using the pool stance. About the only thing you can do in the snooker stance, is to "fall forward" as you're delivering the cue, and your power is a bit hobbled. Or, let's shall we say, constrained to just your arm -- how much power can you focus in your arm alone, with your body adding only a little forward momentum?

The pool stance is comfortable because it's in the middle range of muscle motions, but sacrificing joint alignment to the shot, and thus accuracy. The snooker stance focuses on joint and body part alignment, at the expense of comfort in the muscle range. But it's well worth it.

It is helpful to know both, as you do. Use the pool stance for breaking, and the snooker stance for shooting. They actually match up well.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
I like the open snooker stance because I don't have to turn my head as much to the side to sight along the stick.

On balance I choose a more "closed" pool stance.

pj
chgo

Well that's the reason I believe the snooker stance is working better for me. I noticed after doing some video review of my own games that I was not sighting directly along the stroke line. Instead my head was pointed maybe 5-15 degrees away from the stroke line. After experimenting with it a bit it seems like I simply don't have that range of motion in my neck to comfortably sight along the cue in the pool stance. I can get my head there with some serious straining and extra effort, but that certainly isn't practical for pool.
 
OnTheMF:

Be careful with who you consider to be "ex-snooker" or from a snooker background. For example, Darren Appleton, although he may've played snooker in his past, was primarily an English Blackball (8-ball, with reds and yellows) player. As another example, Alex Pagulayan, although he played snooker occasionally in his past (and he does have a jam-up snooker game), was and is primarily a *pool* player.

The true ex-snooker players never leave their roots. Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Steve Davis, Mark Grey, Tony Drago, etc. all still have their snooker stance. Once you learn how to do this stance *properly*, it never leaves you. It's automatic, precisely because it lends itself so well to naturally putting all your body parts and joints facing into (not away from, as in the pool stance) and in-line with the shot.

The downsides to the snooker stance? Three things:

1. It's not easy to adopt. For one thing, when you're not used to it, it puts strain on your planted-leg's calf and hamstring muscles. ("Planted-leg" is the leg on the same side as your grip hand -- your right leg if you're right-handed.) However, all that issue is, is stretching the muscles to make them do something they've never done before, or on any consistent basis. It's the same as when you keep your legs completely straight, and you bend over to try to touch your head to your knees. Since you don't do that all that often, it's uncomfortable. It hurts, in fact. But do it enough, and not only will the muscles adapt, but it will be no big deal after that. It will come, and feel, natural, once those muscles stretch and adapt.

2. Age. As we age, our muscles get tighter, and their range of motion atrophies. So that locked stance is not as comfortable as it used to be when we were younger. Solution? Stretch a bit before playing. And play often, to keep those muscles tuned.

3. Range of motion. Let's face it, for breaking purposes, you can't beat the pool stance. The snooker stance locks you in place for alignment and accuracy reasons. The pool stance, however, allows the body to move, allowing more power for e.g. break shots. You can really throw your body into it using the pool stance. About the only thing you can do in the snooker stance, is to "fall forward" as you're delivering the cue, and your power is a bit hobbled. Or, let's shall we say, constrained to just your arm -- how much power can you focus in your arm alone, with your body adding only a little forward momentum?

The pool stance is comfortable because it's in the middle range of muscle motions, but sacrificing joint alignment to the shot, and thus accuracy. The snooker stance focuses on joint and body part alignment, at the expense of comfort in the muscle range. But it's well worth it.

It is helpful to know both, as you do. Use the pool stance for breaking, and the snooker stance for shooting. They actually match up well.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

Spot on,good advice
 
OnTheMF:

Be careful with who you consider to be "ex-snooker" or from a snooker background. For example, Darren Appleton, although he may've played snooker in his past, was primarily an English Blackball (8-ball, with reds and yellows) player. As another example, Alex Pagulayan, although he played snooker occasionally in his past (and he does have a jam-up snooker game), was and is primarily a *pool* player.

The true ex-snooker players never leave their roots. Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Steve Davis, Mark Grey, Tony Drago, etc. all still have their snooker stance. Once you learn how to do this stance *properly*, it never leaves you. It's automatic, precisely because it lends itself so well to naturally putting all your body parts and joints facing into (not away from, as in the pool stance) and in-line with the shot.

The downsides to the snooker stance? Three things:

1. It's not easy to adopt. For one thing, when you're not used to it, it puts strain on your planted-leg's calf and hamstring muscles. ("Planted-leg" is the leg on the same side as your grip hand -- your right leg if you're right-handed.) However, all that issue is, is stretching the muscles to make them do something they've never done before, or on any consistent basis. It's the same as when you keep your legs completely straight, and you bend over to try to touch your head to your knees. Since you don't do that all that often, it's uncomfortable. It hurts, in fact. But do it enough, and not only will the muscles adapt, but it will be no big deal after that. It will come, and feel, natural, once those muscles stretch and adapt.

2. Age. As we age, our muscles get tighter, and their range of motion atrophies. So that locked stance is not as comfortable as it used to be when we were younger. Solution? Stretch a bit before playing. And play often, to keep those muscles tuned.

3. Range of motion. Let's face it, for breaking purposes, you can't beat the pool stance. The snooker stance locks you in place for alignment and accuracy reasons. The pool stance, however, allows the body to move, allowing more power for e.g. break shots. You can really throw your body into it using the pool stance. About the only thing you can do in the snooker stance, is to "fall forward" as you're delivering the cue, and your power is a bit hobbled. Or, let's shall we say, constrained to just your arm -- how much power can you focus in your arm alone, with your body adding only a little forward momentum?

The pool stance is comfortable because it's in the middle range of muscle motions, but sacrificing joint alignment to the shot, and thus accuracy. The snooker stance focuses on joint and body part alignment, at the expense of comfort in the muscle range. But it's well worth it.

It is helpful to know both, as you do. Use the pool stance for breaking, and the snooker stance for shooting. They actually match up well.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

Good stuff. Your age point interests me - now I'm in my forties, and with a chronically bad back, I'm finding it increasingly uncomfortable to continue with my snooker stance. This is causing havoc with my game. I feel myself swaying on the shot and just feel uneasy all round. I remember Steve Davis saying a few years how he had to completely relearn how to approach the table when his muscles started to weaken.
 
Good stuff. Your age point interests me - now I'm in my forties, and with a chronically bad back, I'm finding it increasingly uncomfortable to continue with my snooker stance. This is causing havoc with my game. I feel myself swaying on the shot and just feel uneasy all round. I remember Steve Davis saying a few years how he had to completely relearn how to approach the table when his muscles started to weaken.

I agree - a typically excellent post from Sean

Thaiger: I think that you said in another post that you switch at will between the classic, 45 degree snooker, stance and the modern, square-on version. If you have a chronic back problem then this might not be such a good idea. I suggest sticking to one type of stance only for a week or so, making notes of how your back reacts, and then do the same for the other type.

Doing this you might find that one stance, although apparently comfortable while you are playing, is contributing to your back problem in the longer term.

Getting back to the original post, I don't think that it is an easy question to answer without at the same time considering all the other elements of the stroke. Snooker players do a lot of things differently, and you have to look at everything together, since they are often connected.
 
I agree - a typically excellent post from Sean

Thaiger: I think that you said in another post that you switch at will between the classic, 45 degree snooker, stance and the modern, square-on version. If you have a chronic back problem then this might not be such a good idea. I suggest sticking to one type of stance only for a week or so, making notes of how your back reacts, and then do the same for the other type.

Doing this you might find that one stance, although apparently comfortable while you are playing, is contributing to your back problem in the longer term.

Getting back to the original post, I don't think that it is an easy question to answer without at the same time considering all the other elements of the stroke. Snooker players do a lot of things differently, and you have to look at everything together, since they are often connected.

I do experiment and do switch around to whichever stance is most comfortable at the time. It's a tricky one however as there are other things at play apart from pool.

Good point about looking at the the stance as part of the whole. In a sense it's moot for all but very beginners, who I'd advise to adopt a snooker stance every time.
 
The major disadvantage of the snooker stance is that it forces substantial forward bending at the waist with the knees extended. This maximizes stress on the lower back, and also places the neck in extension.

This can be mitigated by bending the knees, which lessens the neck and back stress. The stresses can also be helped by not forward bending as much, but this tends to pull the bridge hand away from the shot line. Bending the elbow and taking a longer bridge can compensate for this, but whether the resultant stance still qualifies as a "snooker" stance is debatable. However, the feet are still in the open position.
 
OnTheMF:

Be careful with who you consider to be "ex-snooker" or from a snooker background. For example, Darren Appleton, although he may've played snooker in his past, was primarily an English Blackball (8-ball, with reds and yellows) player. As another example, Alex Pagulayan, although he played snooker occasionally in his past (and he does have a jam-up snooker game), was and is primarily a *pool* player.

The true ex-snooker players never leave their roots. Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Steve Davis, Mark Grey, Tony Drago, etc. all still have their snooker stance. Once you learn how to do this stance *properly*, it never leaves you. It's automatic, precisely because it lends itself so well to naturally putting all your body parts and joints facing into (not away from, as in the pool stance) and in-line with the shot.

The downsides to the snooker stance? Three things:

1. It's not easy to adopt. For one thing, when you're not used to it, it puts strain on your planted-leg's calf and hamstring muscles. ("Planted-leg" is the leg on the same side as your grip hand -- your right leg if you're right-handed.) However, all that issue is, is stretching the muscles to make them do something they've never done before, or on any consistent basis. It's the same as when you keep your legs completely straight, and you bend over to try to touch your head to your knees. Since you don't do that all that often, it's uncomfortable. It hurts, in fact. But do it enough, and not only will the muscles adapt, but it will be no big deal after that. It will come, and feel, natural, once those muscles stretch and adapt.

2. Age. As we age, our muscles get tighter, and their range of motion atrophies. So that locked stance is not as comfortable as it used to be when we were younger. Solution? Stretch a bit before playing. And play often, to keep those muscles tuned.

3. Range of motion. Let's face it, for breaking purposes, you can't beat the pool stance. The snooker stance locks you in place for alignment and accuracy reasons. The pool stance, however, allows the body to move, allowing more power for e.g. break shots. You can really throw your body into it using the pool stance. About the only thing you can do in the snooker stance, is to "fall forward" as you're delivering the cue, and your power is a bit hobbled. Or, let's shall we say, constrained to just your arm -- how much power can you focus in your arm alone, with your body adding only a little forward momentum?

The pool stance is comfortable because it's in the middle range of muscle motions, but sacrificing joint alignment to the shot, and thus accuracy. The snooker stance focuses on joint and body part alignment, at the expense of comfort in the muscle range. But it's well worth it.

It is helpful to know both, as you do. Use the pool stance for breaking, and the snooker stance for shooting. They actually match up well.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

Sean good read, thx. One thing I've felt too, and its because of watching Allison Play many times, is a second and third gear.
I've seen this happen many times over the years with great nine ball players. They just flow around the table/they smooooooth out, there speed drops in perfect, there arm swing slows down, they rarely miss and become more relaxed especially late into the night and into the early morning hours. I've seen many matches over twenty hours and others much longer than that. Sounds like the snooker stance would have difficulty at that extent. I do tho remember Luther Lassiter saying back in the sixties when he matched up, '' I'll play for sixteen hours but then I need to rest and we'll play again the next day''. He would give you a definite quit time before you locked horns, good way to do business.
 
The major disadvantage of the snooker stance is that it forces substantial forward bending at the waist with the knees extended. This maximizes stress on the lower back, and also places the neck in extension.

This can be mitigated by bending the knees, which lessens the neck and back stress. The stresses can also be helped by not forward bending as much, but this tends to pull the bridge hand away from the shot line. Bending the elbow and taking a longer bridge can compensate for this, but whether the resultant stance still qualifies as a "snooker" stance is debatable. However, the feet are still in the open position.

I think you are talking about bending forward your legs ( because you must bend forward your back and head to aim, so I think you are talking about legs) and you don't need to bend forward at all on a snooker stance.
Watch at 0:44:35 of this video Allison Fisher doesn't bend forward her legs at all, look the right leg which is the most important leg on the snooker stroke ( you need to put your foot and leg on the line of the shot) and you can see it is not bend forward but absolutely perpendicular with the ground.
 
The only downside I know is that once your body is trained to lock itself into position (you become very still where the pool stance allows your body to wiggle if need be), you will find that you start to do it in your breaking position too. Not so good for a powerful break....unless you side rail break where you CAN use the snooker stance again.
 
Style wise, it makes you look like an idiot (in a pool room). This probably only matters if you are looking to attract the opposite sex.
 
Style wise, it makes you look like an idiot (in a pool room). This probably only matters if you are looking to attract the opposite sex.

I don't see how this can make you look like an idiot
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stance1.jpg
 
with the snooker stance you are aligned down the line of the shot.

right handed = right leg planted on the aiming line
left handed = left leg planted on the aiming line


By standing like this, you can deliver the cue straighter to the aiming line, thus stroking straighter and more accurately.


If you stand and let your arms hang down naturally next to your body, you will see they point to the inside of your heel, so by leading with your lead leg and planting it on the aiming line you are naturally aligned to the shot.

hope this helps
 
with the snooker stance you are aligned down the line of the shot.

right handed = right leg planted on the aiming line
left handed = left leg planted on the aiming line


By standing like this, you can deliver the cue straighter to the aiming line, thus stroking straighter and more accurately.


If you stand and let your arms hang down naturally next to your body, you will see they point to the inside of your heel, so by leading with your lead leg and planting it on the aiming line you are naturally aligned to the shot.

hope this helps
do you have some tip to avoid the so called chicken wing?
 
Sorry

with the snooker stance you are aligned down the line of the shot.

right handed = right leg planted on the aiming line
left handed = left leg planted on the aiming line


By standing like this, you can deliver the cue straighter to the aiming line, thus stroking straighter and more accurately.


If you stand and let your arms hang down naturally next to your body, you will see they point to the inside of your heel, so by leading with your lead leg and planting it on the aiming line you are naturally aligned to the shot.

hope this helps

But I disagree with this. With a straighton snooker stance you are parallel to the aiming line, and actually have to twist your body slightly to get a sighting line. Also, your grip hand will brush or hit your hip since your hips are even and forward. Not to mention, for instance, like a right hander that is left eye dominant. Snooker players have a tendency also to bend their back instead of bending from the waist with their back straight. I would not recommend a Snooker stance generally for Pool. Yes, I know Allison and Karen have Snooker stances, and it could be cause of the problem for Allison's neck problems she had, and Karen's back problems she experienced.
 
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