Thoughts on TAR 21

wincardona said:
Here's another idea of a possible format. There's no race or ahead set, it will be played like football and basketball. There will be a time set for the length of the match with a shot clock. For instance, the match will be a three hr match with a 24 second shot clock between shots. Each player will be allotted a certain number of extensions. This type of format will give the viewers an exact time of the length of the match and for marketing purposes it should be better received. Can you imagine the excitement of a close match with say 5 minutes left in the match? Once the 3 hr. clock expires the match is over, regardless of where in the rack the player is on. If the player is shooting the 8 ball and time expires, the match is over.:yeah:


Billy I.
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Billy,

This sounds good at first blush, but have you thought about this a lil deeper?

I have my doubts about this working. Pool matches don't compare well with sports like Football or Basketball. Pool, being an individual performance sport might be better compared to Golf, Bowling or Tennis. For that matter, I don't see a time limit making those 3 sports "better" either. AS far as Pool, the additional crew of people to "officiate" would add more complications in the match. Then, there are the new strategies that the players need to factor in such as clock management, timeouts, how to run down the clock when you have the lead, etc.

I like the idea of trying to keep the matches moving and trying to corral the amount of time it takes to finish a match, so as to make it more watchable and marketable. A shot clock should be used more, IMO. Maybe for the 3 day matches, there can be a time limit for hte first 2 days, with the score ending at whatever it is, then on the last day, they play til it's finished?


Eric
 
lfigueroa said:
I know everyone is twittering about Shane's 7-pack on a tough table, but I have to wonder out loud whether the buzz might have even been even greater if he had laid out a 10, 12, or 14 pack -- if the pockets had been just a tad more normal.

Small pockets, no matter how well constructed, changes the nature of the game. Once they get too small it stops being pool and starts being something else. Put another way: if you want to play snooker with pool balls then do it right and go get yourself a snooker table.

IMO, pool is about working the cue ball, at least in part because the pocket tolerances allow you to do that. Take that away and the strategy and nature of the game is changed, no matter how good the players.

Lou Figueroa
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Alex originally wanted to play this match at hardtimes on the tight monster. Tight pockets was the only way he wanted to play. Justin said he would make the TAR table tighter.

Lets not forget that TAR did not put up this money for them to play for our entertainment. Shane and Alex agree to the table, game and bet... TAR simply accommodates to them and helps make it happen. Shane and Alex want to play on a table with 3 pockets and purple cloth, Justin is gonna figure it out.
 
cleary said:
This could actually be a great idea.
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The more I think about the long race, the more I realize it has quite an effect on the match. When nether player can see the finish line during the 1st two days of play, I think it causes the games to be played at a much more methodical pace. Especially when you have a couple of guys playing that know what it takes to win a match like this. Each player, to their credit, was giving each and every rack their full attention. While this is to be applauded on the one hand, on the other it causes both players to play tighter than normal. If you look at the 3rd day, once Shane could see the finish line, he started playing faster and you could tell he was in more of rhythm. And for me, games were easier to watch.

So in a race to 25 if Player A is up 18-7 or something like that you'll see them playing with more confidence and charging for the finish line. Also, and equally as important the player that is behind can really go for it. Maybe try to get more aggressive and do whatever it takes to change the momentum of the match.

I guess the whole thing may be a moot point anyway since it sounds like TAR is moving away from these long races.

Here's my dream TAR match - This is marketed as a contest to determine the GREATEST POOL PLAYER IN THE WORLD.

10 Ball - Race to 25
8 Ball - Race to 15
Straight Pool - Race to 150
One Pocket - Race to 10
(Not in that particular order)

If those 4 matches end in a 2 - 2 tie you lag for the break and play 1 game of rotation for the title and the cash.

I think this could easily be a Saturday/Sunday event.

One trick ponies need not apply.
 
cleary said:
Lets not forget that TAR did not put up this money for them to play for our entertainment.
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Is this really true?

I mean, I don't know. But Shane and Alex could have found any number of places to play with tight pockets and we could have all heard about it after the fact.

Lou Figueroa
 
JB Cases said:
Did you watch the match? Shane's 7 pack featured plenty of working the cue ball. Alex worked the cue ball on almost every shot.

Again, I will bet big that if we take this match and strip out all the commentary and allow two commentators who don't have any clue as to the pocket size to commentate on the match then you will hear a completely different view on the match. And if you were to somehow find an alternate planet with another AZB that hadn't already formed a million preconceived notions based on endless speculation about the pocket sizes you would see also a completely different discussion regarding this match.

It's all pool. The nature of the game was not changed. I saw pool being played the right way. The pockets were fine and the players ran out A LOT on them.
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My point was that at the level of play exhibited in this match, if the pockets had been more normal, there could have been a 10, 12, 14 pack. And *that* would have had people talking for years.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Is this really true?

I mean, I don't know. But Shane and Alex could have found any number of places to play with tight pockets and we could have all heard about it after the fact.

Lou Figueroa
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Yes, its completely true. TAR give them an appearance fee but no way they could put up $10,000.
 
BasementDweller said:
The more I think about the long race, the more I realize it has quite an effect on the match. When nether player can see the finish line during the 1st two days of play, I think it causes the games to be played at a much more methodical pace. Especially when you have a couple of guys playing that know what it takes to win a match like this. Each player, to their credit, was giving each and every rack their full attention. While this is to be applauded on the one hand, on the other it causes both players to play tighter than normal. If you look at the 3rd day, once Shane could see the finish line, he started playing faster and you could tell he was in more of rhythm. And for me, games were easier to watch.

So in a race to 25 if Player A is up 18-7 or something like that you'll see them playing with more confidence and charging for the finish line. Also, and equally as important the player that is behind can really go for it. Maybe try to get more aggressive and do whatever it takes to change the momentum of the match.

I guess the whole thing may be a moot point anyway since it sounds like TAR is moving away from these long races.

Here's my dream TAR match - This is marketed as a contest to determine the GREATEST POOL PLAYER IN THE WORLD.

10 Ball - Race to 25
8 Ball - Race to 15
Straight Pool - Race to 150
One Pocket - Race to 10
(Not in that particular order)

If those 4 matches end in a 2 - 2 tie you lag for the break and play 1 game of rotation for the title and the cash.

I think this could easily be a Saturday/Sunday event.

One trick ponies need not apply.
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Good ideas, but like skateboarding and Snowbarding, we need to make it quick and exciting for the masses and in turn the pro players income.

Race to 25? John Q public couldn't fade it, even our hard core players can only take so much watching till they too get bored.
Rotation pool needs to be FAST/LOOSE....it needs to become exciting to someone that has minimal interest in our game, gotta lead em to water first, get em hooked then introduce them to other formats, but to get our foot in the door we need something else. I'm sure there's a reason why the WPBA with all its years as a viable organization is not having many/ANY $50,000 first place pro events, EVER, the product is not right yet.
Don't think I'd enjoy watching a Snooker match where players could only pot safteis and once in awhile a 10 or a 14 break, would rather watch bad bowling.
 
lfigueroa said:
Yes, you're right. But when the fans start voting with their PayPal and buying or not buying the PPV, they will have their say too.

Lou Figueroa
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This might sound like a bad business model but its not about the fans. Well, it is and it isnt. TAR bring the REAL action to your computer all over the world. You see two people really matching up and its all about them. The same that you would see in a pool room if nobody was watching. Thats the big difference between what TAR does and a straight up exhibition. I personally think its money very well spent.
 
Oregonmeds said:
My thoughts were it's a shame the general public can't see things like this to raise the interests in pool in general.

I couldn't watch it because it was PPV and most others coulldn't or wouldn't either, so things like this do nothing to advance the sport.

Sort of a shame most people never even see mens pro cue sports in the US at all anymore... I doubt the average espn viewer even knows who's playing any more on the mens side.
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"CaliRed". said:
Can you explain this statement further? I don't understand what your saying.
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Yeah, no kidding. I don't understand the logic in that one, either. Some flaws in oregon-bathtub-plants' logic:

  • TAR heavily advertised this event on the mediums they have ready access to, which is 1.) on their website; 2.) here (AZB); 3.) possibly other pool forums as well. The message definitely got out to those that would immediately be interested in a match-up like this.

  • TAR doesn't have ready access to the medium that the general public "normally sees" pool matches broadcasted/televised from -- ESPN. ESPN doesn't do live streams anyway, that I'm aware of.

  • A race to 100, over three days, is *NOT* the type of match that the general public would be interested in. The general public doesn't even tune in to short-race 9-ball matches (when ESPN *does* show them), let alone a match of this magnitude / length. This is most definitely a "specialty" match, that only the pool diehards would be interested in.

  • It was PPV. Big deal. Big whoopie. The pricing structure that TAR had was very reasonable. I do hope that the TAR team recouped their expenses, and a little sumthin'-sumthin' extra -- those guys deserve it. To say "...couldn't watch it because it was PPV and most others coulldn't [sic] or wouldn't either" is: 1.) a straw man argument; 2.) speaks to the cheap nature of the poster (I would've normally said "thrifty," except he didn't make an attempt at all); 3.) speaks out of turn by saying "most others" are like him. Give me a break.
I mean, this strikes me as common sense; to think otherwise is REALLY a stretch. Not for nothing, but methinks the poster may've partaken a little too much in his product when he wrote that. ;)

-Sean
 
cleary said:
This might sound like a bad business model but its not about the fans. Well, it is and it isnt. TAR bring the REAL action to your computer all over the world. You see two people really matching up and its all about them. The same that you would see in a pool room if nobody was watching. Thats the big difference between what TAR does and a straight up exhibition. I personally think its money very well spent.
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Very good points, and if its short races, 3 out of 5 etc. then even when a player is down 2 sets to zero, they still have a very good chance at coming back. When the score is 10-1 going to 11 and the equipment is locktite, all bets are off.
 
the hardest part about ESPN pool on TV is the limited number of cameras!(usually they only play part of the final matches anyway)

when you watch golf they jump around and cover different players for 4 days. covering the best players and the best shots (highlights)

lets say for the US Open(billiards) you get 1 TV table...ONE! and have to watch the same match till the end and dead air waiting for the next match to begin.

I know its impossible, but if you had multiple overhead cameras covering shots of each match you might get the causal viewer interested. You're limited to whoever they put on the TV table and wait for brackets about the games you really want to watch.
 
Apocalypse2012 said:
the hardest part about ESPN pool on TV is the limited number of cameras!(usually they only play part of the final matches anyway)

when you watch golf they jump around and cover different players for 4 days. covering the best players and the best shots (highlights)

lets say for the US Open(billiards) you get 1 TV table...ONE! and have to watch the same match till the end and dead air waiting for the next match to begin.

I know its impossible, but if you had multiple overhead cameras covering shots of each match you might get the causal viewer interested. You're limited to whoever they put on the TV table and wait for brackets about the games you really want to watch.
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So true, but ESPN's prduction of pool is ''boiler plate'' and hasn't changed much/evolved to make our sport more sellable. Maybe TAR can produce a great product like Matchroom sports and then let ESPN show it, get dollars in perpetuity for the TAR programming and continually make money after the fact.
 
cleary said:
This might sound like a bad business model but its not about the fans. Well, it is and it isnt. TAR bring the REAL action to your computer all over the world. You see two people really matching up and its all about them. The same that you would see in a pool room if nobody was watching. Thats the big difference between what TAR does and a straight up exhibition. I personally think its money very well spent.
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This is a really good point. I get why some folks are in favor of watching shorter races, but for better or for worse as far as viewers, the TAR productions are 100% authentic. Lose the authenticity and you lose the whole thing.
 
"T" said:
This is a really good point. I get why some folks are in favor of watching shorter races, but for better or for worse as far as viewers, the TAR productions are 100% authentic. Lose the authenticity and you lose the whole thing.
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I agree.

We are really talking aboutapples and oranges here. I don't believe TAR is looking for Mr. Johnny Q Public to purchase the PPV. A lot of Island Drive's recommendations are interesting when you are talking about pool on TV, but a lot of us think TAR's business model that is geared toward pool players has some legs.
 
Last time they played I bet on shane and lost. This time I was going to bet on shane again. UNTIL I saw the table. I assumed the table would take away shanes break and give alex a better chance with his knowledge...making it too hard to pick a winner. That's the kind of matchup I like to watch. Great match. The only thing id like to see different is end the match on Saturday or Sunday afternoon.
 
Hey guys;

I was so busy during TAR21 that I was only able to watch, here and there.

During the times I did watch, Sat & Sun, Billy I wasn't commentating.

Was this part of the plan for him not to be there those days or did something come up?

The room and stream quality were terrific! :thumbup:

Thanks,
Brian kc
 
lfigueroa said:
My point was that at the level of play exhibited in this match, if the pockets had been more normal, there could have been a 10, 12, 14 pack. And *that* would have had people talking for years.

Lou Figueroa
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Don't be a doorknob Lou. We have seen plenty of TAR matches on tables with looser pockets and have yet to see a 10 pack. (or we'd be talking about it right now)

Since the pockets seem to be such an issue then this 7 pack on these pockets is the equivalent of a 20 pack on any other table.......

We don't deal in ifs. As Justin said at some point with 20 TAR matches behind them they have an incredible amount of footage to draw on as to what works and what doesn't. He said that they have a huge amount of data gleaned from those matches (I think he said that).

Lastly it can't be said enough that this is what the players and backers agreed to. It's what they wanted.

I will make the following bet right now, the next TAR match that is played 10 ball on 4.25" pockets will NOT have a 10 pack over the whole match.

In fact I will bet that the next three TAR matches with 4.25" pockets will not have any 10 packs.

The fact is that Shane Van Boeing just came with a great set at the right time on tough equipment. It all gelled. He got in the zone and the pocket size didn't matter.
 
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