What's the "purest" form of billiards?
- Thread starter Pangit
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Best post in the thread! :thumbup:
Pangit
Banned
What are the "universally" accepted rules of 8 ball???? U tell me...?? Behind the line , ball in hand... It's a chicken shit game. The rules change in whatever pool playing establishment U care to walk into.
What's a "proper" 8 ball rack??? It ain't the yelllow on the top, solid, stripe, solid stripe, etc ....NO There are only 3 ball's that matter. The 8 in the middle, and a solid and stripe on opposing bottom corners, take your pick? WPA or BCA... Everything else is supposed to be random, "diba"? Diba="right"? in Tagalog, diba?
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This is sort of turning into what game is the hardest or what game is a personal preference. Maybe that was the question but I didn't take it that way.
I stand by my original post. What is the game that all games were derived from? Without going back 1000 years with rocks on the ground and a club and stay within
the last 250 years I believe you'll see caroms being the birth of billiard games. Someone decided it would be fun to have pockets at one point. I believe the first pocket table only had corner pockets. The sides came later. When caroms was mastered by some running 20K then that game changed to lower the run count till 3C evolved. In Pocket games it has to be 14:1 being the purest form. Simple rules. Call every shot. I'd guess there was an effort in the pocket community to devise other games to make it either more difficult or less difficult. At least on face value. Thus came 8ball, banks, one pocket, cut throat...
IMO the mother of all modern games is caroms
the mother of all pocket games is 14:1
Therefore these are the purest.
Note I'm not an historian and for those snooker players out there excuse my ignorance on where the game falls in historically.
I stand by my original post. What is the game that all games were derived from? Without going back 1000 years with rocks on the ground and a club and stay within
the last 250 years I believe you'll see caroms being the birth of billiard games. Someone decided it would be fun to have pockets at one point. I believe the first pocket table only had corner pockets. The sides came later. When caroms was mastered by some running 20K then that game changed to lower the run count till 3C evolved. In Pocket games it has to be 14:1 being the purest form. Simple rules. Call every shot. I'd guess there was an effort in the pocket community to devise other games to make it either more difficult or less difficult. At least on face value. Thus came 8ball, banks, one pocket, cut throat...
IMO the mother of all modern games is caroms
the mother of all pocket games is 14:1
Therefore these are the purest.
Note I'm not an historian and for those snooker players out there excuse my ignorance on where the game falls in historically.
Um, what about the idea that table games with balls evolved from croquet? That seems to indicate that pocket billiards predates carom billiards.
There have been no male snooker stars that have successfully dominated pool's rotation games. Some have had some success of course and there is no doubt that they are amazing cueists.
As for the chess comparison are pool players also not reacting from memory? Are they not playing patterns and situations that have been learned over a long period of time and with lots of experience?
Put it another way, how great would pool players be if they studied pool the way chess players study chess? Imagine going over thousands of games and committing to memory the way that every great champion played every tough situation and then mastering all those variations.
Would they not be a language to you? Would they not appear to you clear as day what the best route is and how best to play it?
I have a shot of Efren's that I can promise you that 99% of the pool players here or in the entire world would not play because they just don't know it and it wouldn't occur to them that it's even possible. But I know it now because I found it on YouTube and I studied it a lot and then took it to the table and figured it out.
BUT why did Efren know it?
Possibly because he plays billiards at a high level and in billiards this type of shot comes up a lot. This is the language of billiards that Efren brings to pool. And it would be fair to say that a good billiard player would have seen the shot easily were he playing pool.
I don't think you can take Torbjorn Blohmdahl to DCC and explain the rules of one pocket to him and expect him to beat the best one pocket players. Oh he will come with some amazing shots, caroms and kicks but he won't know the strategy deeply enough, won't know some standard shots that every average one pocket player knows. Not to say that he wouldn't learn fairly quickly but the point is that he would HAVE to learn.
And by the same token I believe that you can take a high level pool player and teach them how to be a damn good carom player but they still have to put in a certain amount of time leaning the "language" of the game.
I guess it depends on the definition of "pure. If you are playing any game the way it should be played and are shooting well, they all are pure.
I shall go with 14.1 Continious (Straight Pool).
Flame if you must but I feel this game will enhance all other pocket billiard games; however, what you see in Straight, you will see in just about any other game. Its all about cue ball control
Some other reasons I say Straight Pool:
1. Pattern Play
2. Different degree of cut shots
3. Throw shots
4. Keeps you in the Zone longer
5. Safety Play
6. You have to manufacture shots
One Pocket would be my next choice, followed by Snooker. Snooker was hard for me and I did not play it too much while stationed overseas but it will humble you with the smaller balls and rounded pockets.
I shall go with 14.1 Continious (Straight Pool).
Flame if you must but I feel this game will enhance all other pocket billiard games; however, what you see in Straight, you will see in just about any other game. Its all about cue ball control
Some other reasons I say Straight Pool:
1. Pattern Play
2. Different degree of cut shots
3. Throw shots
4. Keeps you in the Zone longer
5. Safety Play
6. You have to manufacture shots
One Pocket would be my next choice, followed by Snooker. Snooker was hard for me and I did not play it too much while stationed overseas but it will humble you with the smaller balls and rounded pockets.
Pangit
Banned
I don't know about that??? I'm not one to sit through an "artistic" pool match...it's boring... decent player, practice a handful of "trick" shot's from the EXACT position ad infinitum... Props all over the place. It's a circus.
Alot like golf... no two shot's are exactly the same, then factor in position for your next stroke. U don't worry position in "trick shot" pool do ya? You can "learn" some stuff from it, but I'd 100% rather watch or play "real" billiards.
The most important ball on the table--(pick a game), is colored white...preferably with measles.
My perception is that the target is 3 balls wide. OOO You can touch either edge of the target with either edge of the cue ball. I know this is intuitive and probably wrong but would someone please convince me I'm wrong so I can get this out of my mind? Thanks.:banghead::scratchhead::speechless:
Not only is the target in 3C three balls wide but it is often effectively bigger because of the balls position relative to a rail or corner. You can miss the OB on the way in but make it on the way out.
Now I'm scratching my head too - why the hell is 3C so hard when it sounds so easy?
:grin: Once in a great while in the pool hall we'll gravitate to the 3C table. Someone will say something like "Let's play to 25." After about an hour and a half one of us will say, "Let's just go to 5." -----
As for purity, however one defines it in the context of the OP's question, to me there is simply nothing so pure in pool as the continuous run of rack after rack of balls.
Not only is the target in 3C three balls wide but it is often effectively bigger because of the balls position relative to a rail or corner. You can miss the OB on the way in but make it on the way out.
Now I'm scratching my head too - why the hell is 3C so hard when it sounds so easy?
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As for purity, however one defines it in the context of the OP's question, to me there is simply nothing so pure in pool as the continuous run of rack after rack of balls.
If the second object ball is away from the cushions, it offers a target two ball widths wide: the line of travel (of the center of the cue ball) must be within one-half ball width on either side of the object ball.
fwiw, pocketed tables predates carom tables. English Billiards is the oldest of all games currently played in serious competition.
Maybe I'm not visualizing this the way you are explaining it. The target is 1/2 ball on either side of the OB which is two balls, PLUS the space in between, which is essentially another ball for a total of three balls wide. The way 1231 illustrated it seems pretty accurate to me: 000. That's a three ball wide target unless I'm missing something. Obviously the target is a hair under 3 balls to ensure contact, but why is this not correct?
Thanks.
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Sorry to point out the obvious, but that target is almost three balls wide!
This is very, very debatable to say the least. I've watched, even personally played a challenge match of 3-Cushion and 9-Ball against a local National Carom champion who arrogantly figured the same, and had the guts to try and prove it. I've got no clue (literally never play carom!), and lost the 3-Cushion set with which we started by only 40 to 50, at which point he would have had to play me 9-Ball endlessly to ever catch up! And when we did play 9-Ball, he soon figured out that his knowledge of carom angles and cushions couldn't possibly make play position better than someone who's spent quarter of a century doing nothing else on a pool table. Not to mention break technique, jumping the cue ball… Forget about it!
There's something else: carom players are notoriously unbothered by collision-induced throw to the so-called "Ball 2" - so when they play pool, let alone Snooker with yet smaller and lighter balls, they're effectively learning from scratch what's taken every expert pocket billiards player years and years to absorb, that is, programming their subconscious - after all, when it comes to CIT, given it changes with temperature, humidity, greasiness and dirt etc., there is little to no "visual" compensation e.g. when the object ball is far away from the pocket. Much less for players from a billiards discipline who are used to judge angles by "half-ball", "quarter-ball" etc. - I've always been wondering how one could tell the difference between a 256th-ball cut seven feet down the rail from a 512th-ball cut seven feet down the same rail. I sure couldn't, with or without reading glasses…
Having said all this, Tjorbörn Blomdahl soon learnt to play a pretty mean game of 9-Ball. There have always been all-around talents, it's not as if Efren Reyes were the only one. Ever seen former World Russian Pyramid Champion Evgeny Stalev play pool? Ever watched Aussie English Billiards Champion Walter Lindrum play anything, e.g. on YouTube? The truth is, there are superhumanly gifted cueists, and the best of them have the ability to adapt to other disciplines more quickly than the rest of us.
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
Beautiful homage to one of my favourite games, thanks! Not sure I agree on the concept of purity (rather, 8-Ball to me combines characteristics/skills from several other games and disciplines), but certainly there's a sense of purity to the love of 8-Ball.
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
I played a 14.1 tourney and steamrolled deep into the tournament for the first time ever playing any 14.1....with a bad tip. There is only a few things you need to know to be able to do that. Some of the top guys ran quite a few balls, but there where two tables no one can run more than 45. Parica played me on one of the tables and never ran more than 12...he still squashed me. No one could handle my 5 and stop the whole tourney. Probably the most boring thing I did that year. One guy unscrewed in the middle of the match. I never played another 14.1 tourney. I solemnly swear to only play ONEPOCKET from then on. Everything from every game must be perfected to play that game at a level that makes you forget everything you don't want to think about.
I know there are many 14.1 lovers, but yall gotta get in there and learn how to kick, LAG, bank, move the rock a zillion different ways, and a ton of other fun stuff. On top of it, you have to shoot extremely well every shot.
I know there are many 14.1 lovers, but yall gotta get in there and learn how to kick, LAG, bank, move the rock a zillion different ways, and a ton of other fun stuff. On top of it, you have to shoot extremely well every shot.
Love both Straight Pool and One Pocket for what they are - different, and with respect to the thread title, there certainly is as strong a sense of purity to either as to any pool game (Rotation springs to mind, too).
Would love to see those tables you've mentioned, reading this made me think of something I'd long forgotten. I once managed to have the high run in the National Straight Pool Championships (more than 20 years ago) with a mere 50. Whoever put up the tables did so with the slate reaching way, way too far into the pockets, so it was impossible to open the rack with even a medium-speed break shot - the object ball inevitably hit the rubber facing, then the rounded rim of slate/cloth, and the pocket spit the ball right back onto the table (reminiscent of that YouTube video in which Reyes and his opponent shoot the same 8 at the same corner pocket several times to no avail). In my "high" run there, I had to cheat the pocked on purpose on every break shot, so the object ball would slow down to where the pocket would accept it, yet with a speed that would allow me to knock a few balls loose from the stack…
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
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This seems to be rather off topic. I started a new thread on the carom forum http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3256476#post3256476. Let's continue the discussion there.