Pivot vs parrallel

bbb

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i just saw a dvd that advocated lining up using center ball and if you want to apply spin move your back hand to pivot to the point of the cue ball for the desired amount of english
ive always lined up straight to the contact point

what i mean is once i get down on the table i dont change the line of the cue stick

your comments on these approaches to deliver spin to the cue ball and make a ball would be appreciated
 
If you truly did that, you'd never make a ball of any distance.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

I'm going back in time, now, but I clearly remember Nick Varner being a strong advocate of moving the cue parallel to apply sidespin. I never stood directly behind him to see if he actually did that, but he claimed that he did. If so, it seemed to work for him.
 
Backhand english.

I prefer to move both my front and back hand parallel.

Parallel english works just fine for shots struck at low and medium speeds with a level cue. There are a few shots where backhand english works better, but you really have to know how to use it.

Roger
 
If you truly did that, you'd never make a ball of any distance.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

I'm just a beginner, but this works for me on short and medium length shots.

I have not tried back hand english much. Does it work better for longer distance shots ?

I use a LD shaft if that makes a difference.
 
I'm just a beginner, but this works for me on short and medium length shots.

I have not tried back hand english much. Does it work better for longer distance shots ?

I use a LD shaft if that makes a difference.

It's not only a matter of distance, it's also a matter of how hard you hit the ball. The harder you hit it, the more squirt (cue ball deflection) you're going to get. Squirt can be offset by backhand english because the center line of the cue then points the cue ball to a spot opposite the direction of the squirt. The trick is in knowing how much backhand english to put on the ball in relation to the required stroke speed, plus the distance away from the object ball.

But at medium to low speed shots, squirt is not much of a factor at any distance, so parallel english works fine...especially with your LD shaft (that's what it's designed for). :thumbup:

Roger
 
It's not only a matter of distance, it's also a matter of how hard you hit the ball. The harder you hit it, the more squirt (cue ball deflection) you're going to get. Squirt can be offset by backhand english because the center line of the cue then points the cue ball to a spot opposite the direction of the squirt. The trick is in knowing how much backhand english to put on the ball in relation to the required stroke speed, plus the distance away from the object ball.

But at medium to low speed shots, squirt is not much of a factor at any distance, so parallel english works fine...especially with your LD shaft (that's what it's designed for). :thumbup:

Roger

Thanks. I'll give BHE another try in my next practice session.
 
Regardless of the speed of the stroke, you WILL have squirt (regardless of the shaft as well).

If you're truly aligning to the base of the ghostball, a true parallel offset will make you miss the shot more than a few feet away. The amount of parallel offset also plays a strong part in this.

Let's say you're offsetting an 1/8 of a tip--- yeah -- you can prob parallel over. However, if you're offsetting more than 1 tip-- you're doomed.

For many good players (such as Varner), they prob perceive themselves paralleling over; however, they're really not.

Applying "true parallel english" is not a technique anyone should follow, regardless of their speed unless he/she is gifted at adjusting their initial alignment to a spot away from the base of the ghost ball.

It's my guess those who think they're paralleling over are really moving their front hand over to their english position. Front-hand english results in a non-parallel alignment that actually doesn't do too bad at compensating for squirt. Many pros use a combination of FHE and BHE.

Regardless of the shaft, regardless of the speed, paired with any REAL offset from vertical and stroking straight down the offset cue line --- you're going to miss a shot of any real distance with a true parallel offset from the shot line (to the base of the ghost ball).

Dave
 
Sorry I didn't fully explain. I currently parallel offset and adjust for squirt/deflection. It's an estimate adjustment by feel and familiarity with the shot. The amount of adjustment is lower compared to my non LD shaft. It works fine for me on short or medium speed shots.

Not saying it's the best. It's just what I currently do. I always like to try new techniques and concepts. I do intend to practice/experiment with both FHE and BHE.
 
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Regardless of the speed of the stroke, you WILL have squirt (regardless of the shaft as well).

If you're truly aligning to the base of the ghostball, a true parallel offset will make you miss the shot more than a few feet away. The amount of parallel offset also plays a strong part in this.

Let's say you're offsetting an 1/8 of a tip--- yeah -- you can prob parallel over. However, if you're offsetting more than 1 tip-- you're doomed.

For many good players (such as Varner), they prob perceive themselves paralleling over; however, they're really not.

Applying "true parallel english" is not a technique anyone should follow, regardless of their speed unless he/she is gifted at adjusting their initial alignment to a spot away from the base of the ghost ball.

It's my guess those who think they're paralleling over are really moving their front hand over to their english position. Front-hand english results in a non-parallel alignment that actually doesn't do too bad at compensating for squirt. Many pros use a combination of FHE and BHE.

Regardless of the shaft, regardless of the speed, paired with any REAL offset from vertical and stroking straight down the offset cue line --- you're going to miss a shot of any real distance with a true parallel offset from the shot line (to the base of the ghost ball).

Dave

Dave
you make an interesting comment about front hand english( which i am not aware of the term)
i assumed if i line up on the shot and go to high left for example
my front hand and back hand move in parrallel

il have to pay closer attention next time at the table
 
Dave
you make an interesting comment about front hand english( which i am not aware of the term)
i assumed if i line up on the shot and go to high left for example
my front hand and back hand move in parrallel

il have to pay closer attention next time at the table

I've met many players that think that. When you pay close attention to what's really happening, their front hand moves a great deal more than the back hand... it's not a parallel movement.

A good way to test this is to setup two bridges with the cue on the middle notch aimed perfectly. Next, move the cue to the next notch (either way) and stroke straight along the notches.

It won't take you long to see exactly what I mean.

What people perceive and what's really happening are usually two different things.

The bottom line is if what you perceive works -- it's the move. Nevertheless, it's important (I think) to really know what's going on. That way, it's easier to troubleshoot misses.

Dave
 
I've met many players that think that. When you pay close attention to what's really happening, their front hand moves a great deal more than the back hand... it's not a parallel movement.

A good way to test this is to setup two bridges with the cue on the middle notch aimed perfectly. Next, move the cue to the next notch (either way) and stroke straight along the notches.

It won't take you long to see exactly what I mean.

What people perceive and what's really happening are usually two different things.

The bottom line is if what you perceive works -- it's the move. Nevertheless, it's important (I think) to really know what's going on. That way, it's easier to troubleshoot misses.

Dave

Do you suggest initially starting with FHE or BHE ? I usually prefer to change one thing at a time. Changing too many things at the same time messes with my head.
 
Do you suggest initially starting with FHE or BHE ? I usually prefer to change one thing at a time. Changing too many things at the same time messes with my head.

I think it depends a lot of technique and equipment used. If you're going to play with anything, start with BHE and go from there.



Dave
 
I played for 20 years much the way ronscuba describes. Standard Schon shaft (i.e. lots of deflection), parallel english, but I addressed the ball with adjustments already predetermined based on experience and feel. Had I addressed the ball with center ball and then tried to just scoot over a tip or so as spidey said I would have missed anything at distance or with speed.

This year as I started to play again after some time off, I learned CTE, and because of that became more interested in trying to come up with a standardized way, for me at least, to impart english. I thought that would be the nuts - line up super-accurately with CTE, make a little swivel or adjustment, and get position effortlessly. Switching shafts and tips during this process apparently hasn't helped much... But I was getting pretty good at it and need to refocus my efforts.

I setup about a dozen standard shots where english is useful - inside english three railers, spinning out of the corner with inside or outside, spinning up table when off angle to a side pocket, etc. Set it up so I had different distances, different speeds, and different amounts of english. I lined up each shot with center ball, then tried various adjustments to see what if any worked.

Using a Predator Z2, I found that I could actually use pure parallel english for slow to almost medium speed shots of shorter lengths. Once I started shooting harder, or got more than a few feet away from the ball, I needed to use primarily BHE, although on some shots FHE or some combination worked as well. Biggest thing messing me up now is I've been playing with the 314-2, and while I like the more solid hit and have even gotten used to the increased diameter it's amazing how different the adjustments are for certain shots. Still a LD shaft, but a bit more deflection in all but the slowest and shorter shots, and overriding 2 years of feel and adjustments with the Z has been tough.

Also found through this process that trying to mechanize it too much is actually detrimental to my game, it's nice to approximate that way but because of conditions, stroke speeds, etc. you definitely don't want to lose your feel.

I've noticed that the pros use very little english, except when needed, even where I would use say a bit of inside or outside to alter the return path off the rail, they just hit center ball and accept a slightly wider or narrower angle. Hard for me to override 20 years of playing that way, and one of the causes of my current slump and indecision and lack of confidence in my game. Obviously the Filipinos in general use a bit more english and are very successful at it, but for my 4 - 6 hours a week of practice I think focusing on center ball with tweaks here and there will probably pay off in the long run, and I can still keep the fancy english in reserve for when absolutely needed.

Scott
 
Using either parallel shift or aim and pivot requires adjustment for squirt, and the amount of adjustment varies from shot to shot.

How far from center you hit the cue ball changes the amount of squirt. Speed as commonly thought doesn't effect squirt as much as tip offset. “Squirt – Part II: experimental results”

With aim and pivot, the pivot point is a factor. If you are lucky, the pivot point where squirt is cancelled for your shaft. is where you bridge. If not, there will be an error that you have to adjust for.

Try both methods and see what works best for you, not what others like. After all, it's you who has to learn how to make the adjustments.
 
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Dave...Please don't make blanket statements when you don't know what you're talking about. You are entitled to state your opinion, but statements like "it won't work" and "you're doomed" are just plain ridiculous to say. I have used parallel shift for decades, for any shot, for any distance, for any speed (compensating my aim for the squirt)...and done just fine....and yes, I really AM "paralleling over".

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Regardless of the speed of the stroke, you WILL have squirt (regardless of the shaft as well).

If you're truly aligning to the base of the ghostball, a true parallel offset will make you miss the shot more than a few feet away. The amount of parallel offset also plays a strong part in this.

Let's say you're offsetting an 1/8 of a tip--- yeah -- you can prob parallel over. However, if you're offsetting more than 1 tip-- you're doomed.

For many good players (such as Varner), they prob perceive themselves paralleling over; however, they're really not.

Applying "true parallel english" is not a technique anyone should follow, regardless of their speed unless he/she is gifted at adjusting their initial alignment to a spot away from the base of the ghost ball.

It's my guess those who think they're paralleling over are really moving their front hand over to their english position. Front-hand english results in a non-parallel alignment that actually doesn't do too bad at compensating for squirt. Many pros use a combination of FHE and BHE.

Regardless of the shaft, regardless of the speed, paired with any REAL offset from vertical and stroking straight down the offset cue line --- you're going to miss a shot of any real distance with a true parallel offset from the shot line (to the base of the ghost ball).

Dave
 
Dave...Please don't make blanket statements when you don't know what you're talking about. You are entitled to state your opinion, but statements like "it won't work" and "you're doomed" are just plain ridiculous to say. I have used parallel shift for decades, for any shot, for any distance, for any speed (compensating my aim for the squirt)...and done just fine....and yes, I really AM "paralleling over".

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

CALM DOWN SCOTTIE----

1) I know what I'm talking about

--and secondly....

2) I was referring to aiming to the base of the ghost ball.

Sure, parallel offsetting works SUPERBLY if you wanna aim off the OB for shots of any distance, even when they're thick shots, assuming you want to load up on english.

Why do you take such personal offense as if you're angry? Just ask for clarification :)

People who say they aim to the ghost ball position and parallel to their english position are mistaken (and doomed). There, I was a little more specific.

P.S. Congrats on achieving your Master level teaching certification.
 
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Doesn't pivot work better b/c the side of the tip hits the cb ? More spin less off-center of the cb to make it spin ?
If you shift parrallel, don't you have less spin and more squirt ?
 
I think people are interpreting parallel english differently. For me, I shift parallel, then adjust by feel for deflection. I call this parallel english. To me, this sounds like the same thing as using both FHE and BHE.

BTW, I experimented with using pure parallel with no adjustment, pure FHE and pure BHE. My end result was pure FHE was the best of the 3, but not as good as what I call parallel english with an adjustment. I shoot with a Mezz LD shaft.
 
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