Ferrule Hardness: The results are in! (and interesting!)

ratcues said:
Does anyone know how to test for strength as it applies to our application? I'd be willing to donate the samples of the ferrule materials.
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I think what is required is a compressive strength test over a period of time.
Something that cycles a load to the hit of a break or play shot over X number of cycles.
Then measure the amount of deformation. On softer materials or shorter ferrules, there should be something to measure.
Something with the weight of a cueball hitting the test piece at 30 mph should be a good start.
The next step, is this done with or without a tip?
I have access to a pneumatic test machine that can be modified for this testing, just need the data to make it work.
Neil
 
conetip said:
I think what is required is a compressive strength test over a period of time.
Something that cycles a load to the hit of a break or play shot over X number of cycles.
Then measure the amount of deformation. On softer materials or shorter ferrules, there should be something to measure.
Something with the weight of a cueball hitting the test piece at 30 mph should be a good start.
The next step, is this done with or without a tip?
I have access to a pneumatic test machine that can be modified for this testing, just need the data to make it work.
Neil
Click to expand...

Allright man! I'm handing this over to you! It was easy to figure out how to do the hardness testing! Beyond that I'm at a loss! Lol

Chris
 
conetip said:
I think what is required is a compressive strength test over a period of time.
Click to expand...

I think we need a compressive test but not necessarily over a period of time. Just a straight up compress-until-it-breaks test. No need to over complicate it.

These values of weight, strength, hardness, etc, are not meant to find the best ferrule but can give give us, or players, a guide in picking a ferrule. By no means, does this quantify playability or feel to individual players but it can help everyone understand how a ferrule may perform relative to to other ferrules. I see it the same way as testing hardness of tips. You have a known, which is the tip you currently play with, and you may want something harder or softer. It is a guide, not gospel. There is nothing wrong with learning and sharing the information. What you do with it is up to you.
 
sloppy chalkers

3kushn said:
OK i'm going to display my ignorance (but interest) again. Maybe some overthinking too.

Its always been my thought that the purpose of a ferrule was to protect the shaft from sloppy chalkers. If that's true wouldn't the objective be to choose a material that's as close as possible to the properties of the wood of the shaft? Understanding that wood varies from piece to piece this is not an east task but would a compression test and or as mentioned earlier a density spec be useful.

Or are we saying an extremely hard ferrule is better to transfer the feel of an all wood shaft while still giving the protection. In other words would a very hard ferrule be the best choice because it negates its presence. (OMG Now I'm thinking of a resonance frenquency test.) I digress.

I work with precision measurement tools all the time, mostly torque tools now but many others in my past and I know More is normaly not better. In fact I can only think of one thing where more is better but that's a personal thing for another place and time.

Lastly the OP did some awesome work and for sure is extremely useful. I just think the ferrule study should continue.
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Hi,
I'm playing a long time and although it might help solve the problem of a sloppy chalker, I believe it's real intention is to keep the shaft from splitting and possibly a tip consideration along the same line of thought. Anyone disagree?
Bill
 
JerseyBill said:
Hi,
I'm playing a long time and although it might help solve the problem of a sloppy chalker, I believe it's real intention is to keep the shaft from splitting and possibly a tip consideration along the same line of thought. Anyone disagree?
Bill
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The ferrule keeps the shaft from splitting. Before ferrules, leather tips could and would mushroom. The act of mushrooming spreads, not only the leather, but the wood fibres as well. That causes splitting. Its the same reason fibre pads are used with ivory. Its not the impact, necessarily, but the spreading caused by impact.
 
JerseyBill said:
Hi,
I'm playing a long time and although it might help solve the problem of a sloppy chalker, I believe it's real intention is to keep the shaft from splitting and possibly a tip consideration along the same line of thought. Anyone disagree?
Bill
Click to expand...
Can't disagree with this but what's the deal with some of the high tech LD shafts w/o ferrules?
I've seen photos of some broken but not lately. Is it accepted that these will eventually crack?
 
I was really surprised with the hardness results of the saber-t from Tiger.


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3kushn
That's an interesting question you put. We mostly work with cues for pyramid, and here is our experience. Since the impact of heavier balls is stronger than in pool it is absolutely essential to have a fiber pad glued between wood and the tip. But we try to avoid installing ferrules because any foreign material other than wood does change the hit and the feel of a cue, which is important for a pyramid player. A cue with a ferrule gives harder hit/feel, even with Juma which proved to be closest to wood in terms of feel. And we are working with Aegis, Titan, Ivorine, etc. We usually install LBM. And usually do it following the customer's request - there are some players who hit so strong that they damage the shaft even with a fiber pad! But ferrules for pyramid cues we make are never longer than half an inch. A common for pool ferrule would hurt the hit of a pyramid cue and probably make it not suitable for quality play. So in pyramid, ferrules are only to protect the wood.
I've heard though that's how ferrules appeared on pool cues first - the cuemakers decided to protect the shafts from chalk. Hence their length of an inch, enough for extensive chalkers :)
 
Vahmurka said:
3kushn
That's an interesting question you put. We mostly work with cues for pyramid, and here is our experience. Since the impact of heavier balls is stronger than in pool it is absolutely essential to have a fiber pad glued between wood and the tip. But we try to avoid installing ferrules because any foreign material other than wood does change the hit and the feel of a cue, which is important for a pyramid player. A cue with a ferrule gives harder hit/feel, even with Juma which proved to be closest to wood in terms of feel. And we are working with Aegis, Titan, Ivorine, etc. We usually install LBM. And usually do it following the customer's request - there are some players who hit so strong that they damage the shaft even with a fiber pad! But ferrules for pyramid cues we make are never longer than half an inch. A common for pool ferrule would hurt the hit of a pyramid cue and probably make it not suitable for quality play. So in pyramid, ferrules are only to protect the wood.
I've heard though that's how ferrules appeared on pool cues first - the cuemakers decided to protect the shafts from chalk. Hence their length of an inch, enough for extensive chalkers :)
Click to expand...
Vahmurka
Your comments are what I'm thinking about the with the other thread on breaking with a playing cue. I don't have the strongest stroke in the world but 3C is the only game I play and 8 rail shots are reasonably common and I have no qualms of sending a ball 9 or attempt 11 with my cue. Haven't made 11 yet (close)but never worry about my cue for crying out loud.

I remember one of the old sales gimmicks where the saleman throws the cue tip into the floor to demonstrate its strength. Never saw one break and boy did I see some bounce. Probably proves nothing but it was impressive.

I may be getting some ferruless shafts in a few months I may have one of them with a Juma pad to feel the difference.
 
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