Ferrule Hardness: The results are in! (and interesting!)

JoeyInCali said:
The results are shocking to me .
I don't have the inclination to dispute it .
Experienced repairpeeps and makers can tell how hard the materials are when machining them. Or by bouncing them.
Saber T being softer than Ivor-X shocks the hell out of me.
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Anything being softer than the old school fiber shocks me. Its basically rolled paper. Ever look at the very end section of a tube?
While I applaud the effort...this may of not been an ideal test. Brown phenolic is softer than Grice?
Ivor-X is as hard as Iv4? Joey...if you chop off a section of Ivor-x does it instantly flatten the teeth on you bandsaw or hacksaw? I doubt it.
Clearly the Durometer test is not as accurate a measure as hours of machining the different materials.
 
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Although I think this test is awesome, there are other factors involved when choosing a ferrule. I've always wanted to rate them on three different variables.

1. Hardness
2. Weight
3. Strength

With these results, we have 2 out of 3. Anyone know how to test strength?
 
Thank you!

Thanks for taking the time to run these tests and post the results for everyones benefit.

dakota

hdgis1 said:
The results are finally in! A big thanks to all of you who helped make this possible. Particularly to Olaf in Germany for doing the actual testing. He goes by Cuetips1000 on youtube and was kind enough to not only do the actual testing, but to also do a video. He did multiple tests on each material but informed me that he edited out the duplicates as the results were all consistent. Some very interesting results! Perhaps they jive with what you all have experienced...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-xvN6W6xhQ

Aegis II: 93
Black Canvas Phenolic: 92
Black Linen Phenolic: 93
Elforyn: 87
Fiber: 87
G10: 93
Grice: 91
Ivor-X: 96
Ivorine III: 93
Ivorine IV: 96
Ivorite-III: 93
Juma: 89
LBM: 95
Meucci Original: 85
Micarta (GE): 94
Micarta (Mason): 91
Micarta (Westinghouse): 84
MPI: 86
Porper: 87
PVC: 86
Rolled Brown Linen Phenolic: 89
Saber T: 94
Titan: 84
XTC: 83


Chris
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Huge endeavor to take on...and a HUGE thank you coming from me personally. Just with any testing, results are going to be nit-picked.

Bottom line, you took time out of your life to help some of us who DON'T know, and would never have had any way TO know the differences in the materials in the testing list...

I'm sure the results are going to be questioned by some, but for me, it gives me more of an idea of where materials fit into the spectrum...

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

Jason
 
JAMSGOLF said:
Huge endeavor to take on...and a HUGE thank you coming from me personally. Just with any testing, results are going to be nit-picked.

Bottom line, you took time out of your life to help some of us who DON'T know, and would never have had any way TO know the differences in the materials in the testing list...

I'm sure the results are going to be questioned by some, but for me, it gives me more of an idea of where materials fit into the spectrum...

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

Jason
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All I really did was be tenacious enough to gather samples from other forum members and send them off to Germany. The real thanks goes to Olaf who did the testing. Hopefully he'll be joining us soon...

Chris
 
Ferrule tests

Thanks for your tests. Probably most people will refer to it for quite awhile.
I'm wondering if anyone knows which ferrules are hardest to clean or keep chalk from building up on?
 
Varney Cues said:
Anything being softer than the old school fiber shocks me. Its basically rolled paper. Ever look at the very end section of a tube?
While I applaud the effort...this may of not been an ideal test. Brown phenolic is softer than Grice?
Ivor-X is as hard as Iv4? Joey...if you chop off a section of Ivor-x does it instantly flatten the teeth on you bandsaw or hacksaw? I doubt it.
Clearly the Durometer test is not as accurate a measure as hours of machining the different materials.
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The machinability of the material is different to its hardness.
An example of this is very high silicon content Aluminum.
It dulls hacksaws, and all hss tools.The material is very abrasive to cutting tools, yet at the same time the material has very high wear resistance against Hard chrome and ceramic surfaces.
Plastics that are glass filled and other fibers, are very abrasive to cutting tools.Some plastics require the use of diamond cutting tools due to their abrasive nature.
The hardness of a material is just one of many factors to be taken into account.
Other factors are, is the material brittle,? will it hold sound with a thin edge or does it break down and crumble,?
What glue will adhere to it,?
What is it's impact resistance?
What is the materials deformation properties?

But lucky for the industry, there are quite a few tried and time tested materials to choose from.

It looks like all the materials tested are harder than most of the leather tips that are available.

Neil
 
I'm with joey.........but that is just my opinion....Good idea and effort for the testing but other varibles go into choosing a ferrule......all repair guys and new cue makers should remember nothing trumps trial and error and experience.....you can't shortcut that....But this was a very interesting test and as I said good way to think outside the box. One thing this test kind of loosly supports is the fact that some of the best playing ferrules are not the hardest.....I have had customers coming to me lately thinking that the hardest ferrules hit the best????? Where the hell did that come from???? I think real deal ivory is harder than all the components on this list but but not possible to test because of the pourous nature. Its is easier to machine than say ivorine 4 but still harder.....I was recently discussing this very matter to a fellow repair guy in the industry.....any input from some of the more experienced cue makers here????
P.s. this also includes bone and antler
 
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scdiveteam said:
I was shocked that Titan was 84. I thought it would have been higher in comparison.
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Rick, you do realize that it's not titanium (metal) but titanoplast (plastic) results in the test, don't you? :smile: That's one of the softest materials I have seen used for ferrules.
 
Does anyone know how to test for strength as it applies to our application? I'd be willing to donate the samples of the ferrule materials.
 
Hey, thanks for doing this. I saved the info to a text file for future use.
I like using LBM and would like to try Aegis. Hoping Atlas still stocks it.
 
ratcues said:
Although I think this test is awesome, there are other factors involved when choosing a ferrule. I've always wanted to rate them on three different variables.

1. Hardness
2. Weight
3. Strength

With these results, we have 2 out of 3. Anyone know how to test strength?
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Ryan


Do we have the weight differences?

Mario
 
hdgis1 said:
All I really did was be tenacious enough to gather samples from other forum members and send them off to Germany. The real thanks goes to Olaf who did the testing. Hopefully he'll be joining us soon...

Chris
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Chris,

Thank you, you've made a worthwhile contribuition. Thanks

Mario
 
OK i'm going to display my ignorance (but interest) again. Maybe some overthinking too.

Its always been my thought that the purpose of a ferrule was to protect the shaft from sloppy chalkers. If that's true wouldn't the objective be to choose a material that's as close as possible to the properties of the wood of the shaft? Understanding that wood varies from piece to piece this is not an east task but would a compression test and or as mentioned earlier a density spec be useful.

Or are we saying an extremely hard ferrule is better to transfer the feel of an all wood shaft while still giving the protection. In other words would a very hard ferrule be the best choice because it negates its presence. (OMG Now I'm thinking of a resonance frenquency test.) I digress.

I work with precision measurement tools all the time, mostly torque tools now but many others in my past and I know More is normaly not better. In fact I can only think of one thing where more is better but that's a personal thing for another place and time.

Lastly the OP did some awesome work and for sure is extremely useful. I just think the ferrule study should continue.
 
hdgis1 said:
Ryan - How would you define strength in this case?

Chris
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Determine a uniform size and style, say 13mm, .312 ID. Apply an amount of pressure to the until it breaks. It may also be useful to use a maple core to simulate a functional ferrule.
 
ratcues said:
Determine a uniform size and style, say 13mm, .312 ID. Apply an amount of pressure to the until it breaks. It may also be useful to use a maple core to simulate a functional ferrule.
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I like it.

Tensile strength, crush resistance, elasticity, flexibility, resonant frequencies...... All sorts of parameters to quantify..... We need a materials scientist......a ferrulologist..... :thumbup:

I am very grateful for the information provided and have saved it. :thumbup:
 
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