interesting stroke discovery

far be it from me, of all people, to critique Danny's game!

but he stops his cue at the point of impact on every single draw shot. even the long one at 2:10. usually he puts the tip down on the cloth in an exaggerated manner, but sometimes he actually pulls it back slightly. it's the complement to your observation of his lifting of it on follow shots. likely, as you mention, it's a consequence of his beautiful close game, which is rivalled perhaps only by Allen Hopkins. hmmm, there's an interesting thought, speaking of strokes...

again, i'd Love to be a 268-ball runner like Danny, and wouldn't care what my stroke looked like if i could do it!
 
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wigglybridge said:
far be it from me, of all people, to critique Danny's game!

but he stops his cue at the point of impact on every single draw shot. even the long one at 2:10. usually he puts the tip down on the cloth in an exaggerated manner, but sometimes he actually pulls it back slightly. it's the complement to your observation of his lifting of it on follow shots. likely, as you mention, it's a consequence of his beautiful close game, which is rivalled perhaps only by Allen Hopkins. hmmm, there's an interesting thought, speaking of strokes...

again, i'd Love to be a 268-ball runner like Danny, and wouldn't care what my stroke looked like if i could do it!
Click to expand...

OK. I see it now. I put my cursor arrow at the point of impact at the back of the cb and it looks like he followed through about 2 inches --- just barely the diamater of the cue ball. I'll have to ask him about that and why he does it. He does scrape the cloth with his tip which you really can't do unless you follow through, at least somewhat. Yes he does play everything close and compact, similar to Hopkins.

Also, Danny hates 9 ball. He says it's the luck factor that bugs him but I think there may be some stroking issues there that bug him as well. If you've ever seen Hopkins play 9 ball, you'll notice that he plays really close position. He doesn't like to shoot long shots.
 
"forgot to mention" category:

i also ordered Joe Tucker's Third Eye trainer on Friday night, which in addition to it's normal features should help me keep track of what i'm doing to my stroke with these experiments!
 
It's not really indicative of stroke flaws Fran...

FranCrimi said:
Bob, very observant about Danny Barouty's stroke. Danny's a good friend of mine and I watch him play a lot.

Danny does one thing better than anybody I've ever seen. He is not afraid to put the cb right in the middle of a cluster and pop off 3 inch shots in all directions. I suspect that's where he developed pulling back his cue, otherwise he'd be double-hitting all over the place.

I'll have to see if he pulls back on longer shots. I don't recall seeing him do it on those.

Regarding following through, yes, I did see you cut it short on some shots, particularly long shots. Not following through or an abbreviated follow through can be an indication of some stroke flaws.

Sometimes if you create the desired result --- in this case --- longer follow through --- you can fix the inherent problems without having to go back and analyze and fix every little thing. That's why I suggested that you keep your original grip, including not pronating your hand. Change one thing at a time. I like the way your back hand looks on the cue in the video you posted. Just push your arm through a bit farther in your stroke and see what happens. If it doesn't help, you can go back and pronate your hand again, but I don't think that's your solution.
Click to expand...

It's more that it increases the chances for stroke flaws to crop up.

It only matters what your cue is doing in the fraction of a second that it makes contact with the CB. As long as it's doing exactly what you want it to do at the moment of contact, then you'll be alright.

It's just easier to maintain consistency when you have a longer straight follow through, because it's easier to be sure that the cue is doing what you want as it strikes the CB...

Jaden
 
i finally got some video uploaded to Vimeo, and will let you know when it's available in their system. in the meantime, i've played a lot this week (for a change!) and made some discoveries and decisions.

the most important 2 things for my accuracy on these long shots seem to be: (1) following through Completely, and (2) not clutching the cue at impact.

i think the reason the exaggerated pronation was working was that as i did that, i sorta forgot my bad habits! that is, it made me do (1) and (2) completely by accident... so i'm forgetting about the pronation and just practicing trying to do those things.

i'm also working on the grip thing, something to which i hadn't previously paid any attention. both of the grips that several of you have suggested work better than what i had been doing (grabbing it with all 4 fingers). i've been watching players of similar body size to me that also shoot the lights out, especially Alex and Darren. both of them use the grip where the back fingers come completely off the cue during the backstroke, and that physically keeps the cue in the same plane, so it seems like the ideal to me.

the videos -- some of which are too long to upload -- also showed me clearly some seriously bad things, in particular, that the slight offset of my elbow actually results in a real "roundhouse" kind of delivery, which is one of the things Matt was trying to correct with my stance. so i now see that i need to exaggerate the stance thing even more to get my body square and allow the elbow to be straight and make my arm hang naturally in the vertical plane. when i get that right, i have this enormous confidence that i'm going to make the shot -- and i do -- so it seems like that's the right track. but i'm still trying little adjustments in my stance to see what brings that sense that i have the mechanics in place.
 
okay, here's some video of my stroke. sorry the angles aren't perfect, but maybe it will enable you to make some observations.

the best one that shows what i think is my worst current flaw (roundhouse swing) is actually the 3rd one, the 14.1 example. unfortunately, the best one that showed it was way too long to upload, and i erased it Before i thought of just trimming it. duh. but the last one below shows it a bit especially in my practice strokes on the 1st break shot.

i also realize in looking at these later how comically quick i am to shoot the shots. it's almost like "geez, do i really have to do this drill?". bad, bad habit, and i think i'm guilty of that while playing as well. no wonder i miss a bunch of these.

stroke from behind:
http://vimeo.com/32714796

stroke from the side:
http://vimeo.com/32714954

straight pool rack:
http://vimeo.com/32715504
 
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thanks, Joe! duh, me.

i will definitely be doing more video sometime in the near future, and will keep your advice in mind. the room i play in can often be pretty cold in the winter, but i could certainly take off sweaters and shirts just for video purposes.
 
Bob, I see a few things. Some are little and some aren't. It seems that you get down on your shots a little differently each time. I don't see you paying much attention to where your feet are placed.

Also, yes, some shots you rush and some you don't.

You have a bit of a sidearm stroke which means that you're pronating your hand outward. Is this the fix you were referring to? If it is, I think you've overdone it a bit. The cue is resting more on the inside of your thumb rather than hanging straight down.

Also, at the end of your stroke you sometimes give the cue a little twist. Mostly, it's after the stroke is finished but sometimes it's before.

Don't be fooled into focusing only on the top half of your body. Where you place your feet is significant. Experiment!

And don't forget the follow through! It takes time and self discipline to make it second nature.
 
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thanks, Fran!

i may be able to get some more video tomorrow night, and it should be better given what i learned from doing this one. i'll try to get the angles right, and get rid of the bulky sweater, etc.

this set of shots was really a mish-mash of styles that i've tried recently, so that's why you see some of the twisting, pronating, etc -- i was trying to demonstrate the variations i've gone through. and maybe that's some of the feet placement thing you're seeing? i sure have been trying hard to pay attention to stance, so it's a bit alarming that you see me not doing that!

next one i'll just stick to one thing that i think is as close as i can get to right, so you have a single target to shoot at!

played for a while tonight in another place where i can't record, and am certainly spending a lot of time working on the follow through, trying to drill it in.

many thanks for your help!
 
Bob:

Before I even chirp my comments, let me begin by saying it takes a lot of guts to post videos (of any kind) of yourself playing pool.... especially for critique. Overall, I think you're a lot closer than you think.

The video from the back could have been a LOT better if the camera was over to the right a HAIR more. That way, we could see the CB, OB and pocket. When you leaned into your stance, we lost the view of the shot and most importantly, the CB. Therefore, a lot of what I'm about to say is a guess based on a few things I could extrapolate from the limited view we had.

What Fran said is correct -- you setup a little differently on all of your shots. You also do not stand "behind" the shot to get a clear picture, prior to stepping into your stance and sliding your bridge into place. By "dropping" onto the CB, you experience minute variations in the cue's angle of attack (into the CB face) that will cause you to miss, either because of unwanted english or completely bad alignments. By standing back off the CB and seeing the complete shot picture, you're able to step forward and "slide" into position, which is a far more accurate and repeatable way to address the CB.

The shot that gave me the best picture of what it is I think you're doing is the 2nd shot in the "from behind" video. Your body was nowhere near where it was supposed to be. You came into the shot from the side as if you leaned over onto the shot line. You had a very slight cut to the left, if I recall. If you were to imagine a line from the center of the CB to the right edge of the OB (*** this has nothing to do with aiming or CTE, just alignment ***), the right side of that plane would be considered the strong side and the alignment to the left of that plane would definitely be the weak side for that particular shot. If you were to step into the CB (from standing back from the shot) with your vision's center just barely to the right of that plane and slide into the center of the CB, you're in a much stronger position to make that shot.

Just do the opposite for a thin shot. If that 2nd shot were a thin shot to the same pocket, your alignment would have been perfect.

I think once you get your body in the correct position and become consistent in how you get there (from standing behind the shot and sliding in), your game is going to get much better in a very, very short period of time. You seem to have a good stroke and that's half the battle.

Anyways, good luck --- thanks for the videos.

Dave
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
Bob:

Before I even chirp my comments, let me begin by saying it takes a lot of guts to post videos (of any kind) of yourself playing pool.... especially for critique. Overall, I think you're a lot closer than you think.

The video from the back could have been a LOT better if the camera was over to the right a HAIR more. That way, we could see the CB, OB and pocket. When you leaned into your stance, we lost the view of the shot and most importantly, the CB. Therefore, a lot of what I'm about to say is a guess based on a few things I could extrapolate from the limited view we had.

What Fran said is correct -- you setup a little differently on all of your shots. You also do not stand "behind" the shot to get a clear picture, prior to stepping into your stance and sliding your bridge into place. By "dropping" onto the CB, you experience minute variations in the cue's angle of attack (into the CB face) that will cause you to miss, either because of unwanted english or completely bad alignments. By standing back off the CB and seeing the complete shot picture, you're able to step forward and "slide" into position, which is a far more accurate and repeatable way to address the CB.

The shot that gave me the best picture of what it is I think you're doing is the 2nd shot in the "from behind" video. Your body was nowhere near where it was supposed to be. You came into the shot from the side as if you leaned over onto the shot line. You had a very slight cut to the left, if I recall. If you were to imagine a line from the center of the CB to the right edge of the OB (*** this has nothing to do with aiming or CTE, just alignment ***), the right side of that plane would be considered the strong side and the alignment to the left of that plane would definitely be the weak side for that particular shot. If you were to step into the CB (from standing back from the shot) with your vision's center just barely to the right of that plane and slide into the center of the CB, you're in a much stronger position to make that shot.

Just do the opposite for a thin shot. If that 2nd shot were a thin shot to the same pocket, your alignment would have been perfect.

I think once you get your body in the correct position and become consistent in how you get there (from standing behind the shot and sliding in), your game is going to get much better in a very, very short period of time. You seem to have a good stroke and that's half the battle.

Anyways, good luck --- thanks for the videos.

Dave
Click to expand...

Great posting and great observation Dave!
Hats off!

lg
Ingo
 
thank you, Dave!

i will try that tonight, and make a better video as well.

one thing that i notice in watching this repeatedly is that, despite my efforts, Fran is right: i have a distinct sidearm approach. this can't be good.

when i observe any of the current pool or snooker greats, i see one thing in common: an absolutely straight-as-a-string line from their back hand through their head through the bridge to the ball. the thing that perplexes me is that their right elbow seems to be "inside" this line, i.e., closer to the body. from the front, it almost looks like their elbow is wrapped around behind the body. yet the forearm is vertical, and the stroke is straight.

when i look at my stance in these videos, it looks different. although my back hand Is in line with everything else, i still manage to have a side-arm issue. what is perplexing me is whether this is because my elbow is in the wrong place, or my entire upper torso is twisted funny?

maybe my stance is forcing me into the wrong position and my body ends up twisted because of that? i really don't know how to determine if it's right. especially because there are so many versions of "right", between pool and snooker!

i will try to align the way you suggest. reminds me of the Jerry Breisath video, where he says to align with your chin behind the shot and come into stance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpbNlnS9GFk
 
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turns out you need to Aim to put the ball in the hole -- who knew?

seriously, thank you Dave! everything that people have contributed has helped, but that tip about stepping into the shot was definitely a major, Major piece of the puzzle. i think that plus the follow through advice from Fran is going to get me over the hump here. but the grip tips are also helping my stroke feel more natural, plus with that and the followthru, i'm getting more draw/follow on shots. uh, when i Remember them, that is.

here's the new improved me:

http://vimeo.com/32887118

comments are still very, Very welcome; i might still be short of perfect. <grin>

spent a lot of time tonight trying to work all of the advice everyone's given into my game; it's going to take a while to become habit... but i Did make the setup into the shot more natural, by Planting my right foot on the shot line and then offsetting my left foot from that, instead of jockeying around like i did in the video. and i made a run of 27 (14.1), which is only 4 short of my best ever, so this is very encouraging.
 
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Wow...what an improvement! If I didn't know better, I'd say you were pulling our chain and sandbagging us with the earlier videos. Amazing what a couple of little things can do for someone's game. I love these threads, even after playing 30 years I learn so much from all the responses.:thumbup:
 
Great job, Bob. Everything looks much better. Now comes the tweaking part:

Try slowing down your approach to the shot. This will help you avoid rushing which can cause missed shots. Try starting out by standing a little farther back, take a second or two to look at the shot and then slowly step on to your line and get down into position. No need to rush that process.

Stay down on the shot a little bit longer after you hit the ball, just to make sure that you didn't start the getting up process before contact. I normally tell players I work with if they feel like they stayed down on the shot long enough, they probably didn't. If they feel like they stayed down a bit too long, it was probably just right.
 
Hi Bob :)

As Fran shown up: If you *aim* a shot, looking for the straight line: This is something you do BEFORE going down, while standing about 3-4 feet from the table. Then you can easily (if practiced a bit longer :p) go down into the shot with 2 small steps and this ALREADY aligned. I prefer to stand with your back-leg, your *grip-hand* and your *vision-center* already aligned to the shot while aiming the first time- then i just go down to the shot placing my bridge hand. So you re always *already on the baseline*. Helped me personally a ton-learnt from a strong snookerplayer long ago.

To stay down until the shot is done, you can throw all 15 balls on the table, pocket each shot, and stay down til each ball is in the pocket and the cb has *landed*. 2-3 times should be enough. Usualy you will make much advantages after 2-3 weeks already.

keep shooting Bob :)

lg from overseas,
Ingo
 
thanks for the encouragement and further tips!

Fran, you really have me pegged; last night i missed 2 easy shots (including the one that ended the long run) and one easy position that were all clearly rushing. so anything i can incorporate that will cut that down i'm game to try, and i like starting that early in the preshot routine to set slower as a pattern. has anyone ever said to themselves after missing a shot "i played that too slowly"?

likewise on the staying down; i came up on at least one of the shots in the video, i remember.

i like Ingo's drill. the other way i personally learn to ingrain a habit is by imagining how someone who already has that habit Feels while they're doing it. so, for the alignment before going down on the shot, i try to imagine how Johnny Archer feels. for staying down, i try to be inside Neils Feijen's head. someone once told me i'm what's called a "kinesthetic" learner.

it often works for me. otoh, i watched "From Mao to Mozart; Isaac Stern in China" and came out of the movie convinced i could play violin. that Didn't work.
 
Bob, I'm a kinesthetic learner myself so I know what you mean. I'm also visual. If you stand me at a pool table and start lecturing at me, l would probably zone out. But if you show me how it's done, I can imitate it and then grab on to how it feels. I'd bet you are probably visual, too. The two usually go together.

Yup. I know what you mean. I've tried to imnitate a few choice concert pianists, myself. Doesn't work. However, I did get really good at jerking my head up and down and slapping the piano really hard and then flinging my hands way up in the air. Haha.
 
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