Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

[Paul Schofield]

The highset grossing pool hall in Houston is Clicks and its non smoking, its got a crowd every night.

I have spoken with the owner of this chain. About half of his rooms have closed and the rest are just hanging on. He attributes the steep decline to the new smoking laws.

Here is his most recent closing:
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/2011/05/clicks_billiards_in_phoenix_no.php

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I don't know that you can compare restaurants to pool halls when it come to a state-wide smoking ban. You still gotta eat.

In California, at Hard Times, guys just smoke right outside the front door then go back in. At the pool hall where I play league some of the players seem to spend half the night outside in the smoking area, but they still come and play every week.

 

[bender_lu]

nice when it works in california. you should have come to us last year with 50cm snow followed by -10 degrees C or look at the rest of the us that are not considered as a sunshine state

btw: reading the startpost gave me the impression that poolplayers in the US seem to be rednecks (at least a lot) :grin:

we handle it like this: smoking is ok
no smoking during competition in the room with the tables, doors get closed. possibility to smoke at the bar (neighbor room).
exception: when players of both teams are ok with smoking,then go for it.

 

[Taco]

The recession, depression that started in 2007-2008 is something Obama created. People are so stupid in this country, they will believe the lies they are told because they are too lazy to care about the truth.

How did Obama create the "recession, depression" in 2007-2008 if he didn't take office until 2009? In 2007-2008 there was another guy in office, name of George Bush. But congratulations - you do get my vote for most ignorant post of all time.

 

[Taco]

How did Obama create the "recession, depression" in 2007-2008 if he didn't take office until 2009? In 2007-2008 there was another guy in office, name of George Bush. But congratulations - you do get my vote for most ignorant post of all time.

Sorry, just re-read your post and realized you were being ironic. On the internet, nobody knows you're a wag. I agree.

And back on topic - I'm a smoker and in no way has it affected my pool hall junkiness. You go out, have a smoke, come back, all's good.

 

[maha]

the owners have to change with the times. give the smokers a warm sheltered spot to smoke outside. dont make them stand in the doorway.

realize that the past ways may not work. having higher prices for pool also means not having chalk that is worn out. and dirty balls and tables. when i go into any restaurant they wipe the table and provide clean utensils for me. why not in a pool room.

a filthy restroom isnt fun either. most pool rooms are.

chairs that are positioned so that it isnt conducive to hanging out make people leave. pool rooms need bodies in them to create action.

give a better assortment of things to spend your money on. just a candy machine and pop out of the gun doesnt cut it.

 

[risky biz]

First off, one can make polls to sway the public. Polls are notoriously innaccurate. Just look at risky biz's poll, and compare it to an entire U.S. population of only a little over 300 million. One in twenty or so play pool at least thirteen times a year? Not even close. And, the OP's, smokers are mostly the dumber people? Again, just look around, obviously not true.

I didn't do that market research poll myself. It was done by the Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association. I'm pretty sure they did the research so their members could make better decisions about their business priorities. I'm pretty sure they didn't do a fake poll to sway the public unless you can show me some evidence that they had some kind of media campaign to promote it. What falsehood would they be trying to bamboozle the public into believing, anyway? That 5% of the population plays pool at least once a month? Just because you don't see someone at your local pool room, filthy smelling smoker's paradise or not, doesn't mean they don't play pool.

And, by the way- if someone's smoking they're automatically dumber unless you consider lung cancer smart.

 

[risky biz]

This thread is about what the new smoking laws mean to pool. This thread is not a rant about who has got what rights and the heavy hand of government.

The new smoking laws are a catastrophic blow and a dagger through the heart of the business of pocket billiards. How can this be? Many restaurants and bars that have rid themselves of smoking have actually seen their sales recover and increase. If this is true then this must also extrapolate to poolrooms. It doesn’t. We have lost more than 70% of our poolrooms.

The answer sits in the governments demographic reports on smokers. Its eye opening and easy to see why some businesses benefit and others are destroyed.

1. The more educated an individual is, the less likely he/she smokes. A person with a mere high school education is 8X more like to smoke than a person with a college education beyond a bachelor degree.
2. In parallel, the higher a person’s income and net worth is, the less likely a person smokes. At the same time, the closer a person’s income approaches the poverty line, the more likely a person smokes.
3. Looking at a graph of smokers from the ages of 18 to 80, the closer a person is to the age of 18, the more likely the person smokes.

Who is our clientele? Take a look at the big picture. When a restaurant disallows smoking, and its customer base is from the 2nd and 3rd tier (5 tiers) of the demographic scale, smokers are replaced with many more non-smokers. This is because the smoker to non-smoker ratio heavily favors the non-smokers in this demographic.

The business of pool draws heaviest from the lowest fifth of the demographic scale. The highest percentage of smokers is in this group. Pool appeals to this group and our poolrooms are built to serve this group. Tell them that they can’t smoke in a poolroom and who replaces them? The smoker to non-smoker ratio in this demographic is much different than the tiers above them.

The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is. Right now, it does not compete well.

This is the dress code in your pool room and you think a smoking ban is the problem?
http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=165352&d=1293050199
There are probably a ton of players who would rather drive 30 miles to another pool hall than tolerate that nonsense.

 

[abfloyd1971]

Smoking ban was a huge hit , online gaming , popularity of poker , dwi laws , rising costs to do business , all factors . The smoking ban was by far the biggest hit to my business . When I bought my room in 2001 it had been in business for ten years , the first three I owned it I stuffed it in all four pockets , have been just surviving since . Thank god I love it .

2004-2005 the economy started to crumble from the effects of 9-11.nobody in this country wants to look at what it did to the economy.we are to proud to admit it did a lot more damage than lost lives.i sold my poolroom in 2004 and it was closed by 2008.and we had no smoking ban then.poolrooms survive off illegal activity which runs good customers away.hard to get families to take their kids near known drug dealers knowing they can't do anything to keep their kids off of them.make it a death sentence for dealing to a minor and it will deter these punks that thrive off ruining this country.poolrooms need to be divided up to work a section where no alcohol or smoking is allowed.then families can take their kids and let them learn the game in a clean enviroment.

 

[stevea]

I live in Florida and we do not have a smoking ban yet but I hope to one day! I do not smoke and going to the pool halls or bars around here suck because of how smokey they are. You can't even see across the pool room it's so bad.

One of the rooms around here hosted the US Amateur Championships in November and that is a non-smoking tournament, it was a nice weekend to come to the pool hall, no smoke, you can see and when you left you didn't smell like crap! Everyone that smoked went outside to smoke and no one complained (that I know of). That is the world I wish to one day live in!

 

[1pocket]

For Neil

First off, one can make polls to sway the public. Polls are notoriously innaccurate. Just look at risky biz's poll, and compare it to an entire U.S. population of only a little over 300 million. One in twenty or so play pool at least thirteen times a year? Not even close. And, the OP's, smokers are mostly the dumber people? Again, just look around, obviously not true.

Smoking has played a part in rooms closing. A FEW rooms, it might actually be the final straw that caused the closing. Depends on how many of the patrons smoked. I know that my going to a room to play has diminished greatly. Mostly due to the economy, but also due to the fact that I can't smoke there. I don't like having to go out in the rain or cold to have a smoke when I want one, so it diminishes any fun I would of had being there.

And I don't smoke, but smoking is still allowed in the private clubs that I play at, and I have had to cut back going there to play because I am getting more and more concerned about the cumulative effect of the 2nd hand smoke -- it might be my number #1 health risk that I have control over at this point in my life. Neil, come on up to NH.

PS -- the opening poster said nothing about "dumber" people smoking more; he quoted statistics about levels of education. There is a difference between dumb/smart and less/more higher education. I work in construction and play pool and there are plenty of very smart people in the trades and among the less educated pool players, in other words, there are other kinds of smarts than just school smarts.

 

[whitewolf]

Smoking ban was a huge hit , online gaming , popularity of poker , dwi laws , rising costs to do business , all factors . The smoking ban was by far the biggest hit to my business . When I bought my room in 2001 it had been in business for ten years , the first three I owned it I stuffed it in all four pockets , have been just surviving since . Thank god I love it .

Then you should have been selling smokeless cigarettes in your poolhall.

They are great.

 

[metallicane]

Personally, I love the smoking ban. I hated going to the poolroom and coming home smelling like crap. I think it has had an effect on pool rooms, but the bigger cause for demise in our area is the ban on the gaming machines. That's a whole other thread.

 

[cueaddicts]

I don't think it's the smoking laws per se, but they definitely play a role. Truth is, when it comes down to it, most of the target clientele would rather give up pool than smoking. With the cost of living skyrocketing these last 5 years (fuel, food, etc.), the middle to lower income earners are really suffering.....and therefore it's easy to see why pool is in such a state of decline. That's my $0.02 anyway.

 

[FranCrimi]

I don't know how the smoking ban started in other states but in New York it did hurt the pool rooms because of the way it was done. Smoking was still allowed in bars at that time, so it hurt pool rooms with liquor licenses. People who liked to stop in for a drink just went to a bar instead. Those people never came back, even when ban kicked in for the bars. It might not have been as bad if the ban were across the board, all at once. Maybe people would have stayed put.

The other people who basically left pool rooms when the ban kicked in were the mooches who just hung around and didn't spend any money anyway, other than an occasional cup of coffee.

I don't know of any players who left or went less often or spent less money due to the ban.

 

[Black-Balled]

Do NOT make me call Ted Harris.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

No Smoking has been the LAW of the Land in Arizona almost 3 years. About the only place you can smoke is your home, in an open space like walk on a side walk, parking lot, outside your home, your auto, Private Clubs like Elks, DAV, AM Legion, etc. You can still Smoke INSIDE if the Club Allows it.

Pool Rooms, Pool Bars, and Sports BARS HAVE CLOSED by the Armadas.

Another reason is Arizona NEW TOUGH DRUNK DRIVING LAW with Mandatory Ignition INTERLOCK DEVICE on Conviction # 1!

 

[Donny Lutz]

Not a stupid post...

This is a stupid post. Smoking isn't the cause of pool rooms closing. Its the cost of everything going up and wages going down. Thanks teabaggers, we love trickle down economics. We love busting up unions so people can earn less. We love right to work states so wages can be depressed. We love having no health care or retirement. We love working minimum wage and paying more taxes than Bank of America. It just like the other lies you hear. The recession, depression that started in 2007-2008 is something Obama created. People are so stupid in this country, they will believe the lies they are told because they are too lazy to care about the truth.

I agree with everything you say here, except for your opening line. Just because you disagree, doesn't make it stupid. There is truth in that post and yours. The possible "flaw" in the original post is that smoking laws are the ONLY problem, which you correctly challenge. The solution to the demographic problem is simply to promote pool to all demographics, which is not being done very well at this time.
There are clearly a number of reasons why pool is suffering currently, perhaps the most important is the way billiard centers operate their businesses: Some want only heavy drinkers, some want only men, some want only "white" folks, some offer no variety (leagues, tournaments), some don't keep their tables in good condition, some don't keep the rest rooms clean, some have un-friendly owners or staff, some have staff who know nothing about leagues and tourneys and can't answer questions, and most seek to drive competition out of business when cooperation could increase business for all...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

 

[jalapus logan]

We are getting off topic.

Could we please hear from a room owner who has been in business for many years, who's business has improved since the smoking laws took affect?

I am no room owner, but I did observe how packed the Silver Cue here in fabulous Lexington has become on league night these days, which is several years after our local smoking ban was enacted. BTW, the Silver Cue fought it by allowing smoking after the ban went into effect, but I think that stiff fines finally got the better of them.

Long story short, I've never seen the place so packed - wall to wall patrons! Like you said, if pool and room owners want to succeed, the demographics with disposable income need to be involved. Why do you want "patrons" with little to no money to spend in the room anyway? Plus, these types just tend to run off the more desirable (read profitable) customers.

As an aside, I enjoy playing in our local rooms more since the smoking ban went into effect. Also, it's been around long enough in our area that no one complains about it either...

 

[Donny Lutz]

Second hand smoke and cancer

So, you are telling me that the non-smokers don't have the same arguement? I hated going to our pool hall when they allowed smoking. The room stunk and the ventilation wasn't the greatest and it took away any enjoyment I would have had going there to play.

I smoked for more than 25 years before I finally quit and that was one of the best things I ever did. Even though I'm a reformed smoker, I don't go around being the cigarette police and bashing smokers like some people do. I think EVERY business should be able to do what they want to do...have a smoking place or non-smoking place or a split place that has both. If the people don't like one place they can go to another that caters to their lifestyle.

Your comment is thoughtful.
I'd like to add that a few years ago, I was diagnosed with cancer. I smoked cigarettes only briefly as a youth; my doctor told me my cancer was most likely caused by second hand smoke, as I have been a pool player for 56+ years. I don't go to smokey establishments any more, which has limited my play, but I've been cancer free for six years. I wish all the folks who blew cigarette smoke in my face since 1955 could read this post...
Before I get attacked for my comment here, let me say that I believe people have a right to smoke, as long as it doesn't infringe on my right to breathe and be alive.
If human culture survives this century, I think the folks of 2100 will look back at tobacco use as something rather foolish, disgusting and not too great for our kids.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl