Is it legal to do this with my cue?

[Aten]

This rule clearly states the equipment must be used for its intended purpose and further goes on to specify what the intended use of chalk is.

Wouldn't that mean that placing chalk on the rails is an immediate foul? While it may seem obvious that a player is using a cube of chalk to "mark" an aiming spot, it isn't always clear cut (and I'm of the opinion that rules should be unambiguous).

I'm more curious as to whether or not any player has been charged with a foul in competitive play for leaving their chalk on the rail in a location that was interpreted as an "aiming spot".

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

I'm more curious as to whether or not any player has been charged with a foul in competitive play for leaving their chalk on the rail in a location that was interpreted as an "aiming spot".

I've called several people over the years for doing it, and the funny thing is that I see them try and leave the chalk in a position so when I shoot they can call it on me, but I always move the chalk, it's more annoying to me than helpful.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

If a player is leaving chalk on the rail to mark a aiming spot I say let them do it. They probably aren't very strong players.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Wouldn't that mean that placing chalk on the rails is an immediate foul? While it may seem obvious that a player is using a cube of chalk to "mark" an aiming spot, it isn't always clear cut (and I'm of the opinion that rules should be unambiguous).

I'm more curious as to whether or not any player has been charged with a foul in competitive play for leaving their chalk on the rail in a location that was interpreted as an "aiming spot".

No, simply putting the chalk down on the rail is not illegal, why would it be? It is only when you are putting it down with the intention to mark a spot on the rail. Now you are marking the table and using the chalk as an aiming device/aid, which is different than its intended purpose.

As far as if anyone has ever bee called on it, I don't know. It is not a foul for the chalk to be inadvertently set down in the area a player is aiming. Like pattern racking, it's one of those rules that's difficult to prove; there's obviously a high degree of deniability. But it's a rule so either you play by the rules (regardless of whether you can get caught) or you don't.

This does make me thing of another question though. Suppose your opponent plays safe and leaves you a kick shot. It just so happens a piece of chalk is sitting on the rail EXACTLY where you need to kick. It was already there - you didn't put it there. Is it a foul to use the chalk as a reference? Do you need to move the chalk away from the spot to be sure you won't get called for using it as an aid? Obviously it doesn't break the rule of marking the table because you didn't place it there, but what about the other rule (intended use of equipment). Even though you didn't place the chalk in that spot, if you use it as an aiming device wouldn't you be breaking the rule?

Further, what is the technical legality of using the "spot on the wall" technique? :grin:

WWBD? (What Would Buddy Decide?).......Buddy? :grin-square:

 

[Aten]

No, simply putting the chalk down on the rail is not illegal, why would it be?

This does make me thing of another question though. Suppose your opponent plays safe and leaves you a kick shot. It just so happens a piece of chalk is sitting on the rail EXACTLY where you need to kick.

Well, that's exactly why I mean. There are so many cases that could occur, really, and it seems like if TDs wanted to enforce this rule, they could just include a clause saying that leaving cubes of chalk at the table is a foul (anyhow, this would keep rails clean and the blue off my pants :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Well, that's exactly why I mean. There are so many cases that could occur, really, and it seems like if TDs wanted to enforce this rule, they could just include a clause saying that leaving cubes of chalk at the table is a foul (anyhow, this would keep rails clean and the blue off my pants :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup.

Look at the bright side, come home with blue chalk all over you rather than glitter and at least your wife knows you were at the pool hall and not a strip club. :grin-square:

I guess the idea is this is a rule similar to pattern racking, that essentially relies on the honor of the players. I for one don't want all the honor legislated out of the game.

 

[macneilb]

I've called several people over the years for doing it, and the funny thing is that I see them try and leave the chalk in a position so when I shoot they can call it on me, but I always move the chalk, it's more annoying to me than helpful.

To be honest...if I see someone do it, I just let it go. For one, its too hard to prove that it was done intentionally and used as a marker which can lead to senseless arguments. Two, for the people who say just move the chalk on the person, if it was me and someone walked up and moved it on me, I would do the same to them while they were in mid-stroke - just to remind them to mind their own game....

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

To be honest...if I see someone do it, I just let it go. For one, its too hard to prove that it was done intentionally and used as a marker which can lead to senseless arguments. Two, for the people who say just move the chalk on the person, if it was me and someone walked up and moved it on me, I would do the same to them while they were in mid-stroke - just to remind them to mind their own game....

That's about right. Not much you can do so if they are doing it intentionally just know you've learned something about your opponent and make sure the money is on the light.

 

[ShootingArts]

that's why I kept a cube of chalk on the dash of my truck!

:angry:

Look at the bright side, come home with blue chalk all over you rather than glitter and at least your wife knows you were at the pool hall and not a strip club. :grin-square:

I guess the idea is this is a rule similar to pattern racking, that essentially relies on the honor of the players. I for one don't want all the honor legislated out of the game.

When I didn't make it home as expected I'd carefully mark the front of my shirt down low with the telltale blue square with the round center.

"Where have you been all night?!? :angry: :angry: :angry:

"Girl, I can't lie to you I spent the night in the arms of a beautiful blonde."

"Ha, I see the chalk. You've been in the poolhall all night again."

Just couldn't put anything over on her.

Hu

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

To be honest...if I see someone do it, I just let it go. For one, its too hard to prove that it was done intentionally and used as a marker which can lead to senseless arguments. Two, for the people who say just move the chalk on the person, if it was me and someone walked up and moved it on me, I would do the same to them while they were in mid-stroke - just to remind them to mind their own game....

When you see someone at the table, looking at a shot, and then they place the chalk even close to where they need to shot, I'll tell them they can't have the chalk near the line they are needing to shot or I will call a foul on them for attempting to cheat. If they choose to complain, I pull out a rule book, tell them to read the rule they broke, and if they still don't like it, to either play by the rules or forfeit. Though I do only call it for games involving some sort of money. And to say that someone needs to mind their own game if they are moving your aiming device/chalk on the rail right near where your actual aim needs to be, then you need to be a better sport and move the chalk yourself. Now if they are waiting till right before you are literally about to strike the ball, then they can be called for sharking.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

:angry:


When I didn't make it home as expected I'd carefully mark the front of my shirt down low with the telltale blue square with the round center.

"Where have you been all night?!? :angry: :angry: :angry:

"Girl, I can't lie to you I spent the night in the arms of a beautiful blonde."

"Ha, I see the chalk. You've been in the poolhall all night again."

Just couldn't put anything over on her.

Hu

Like the old golf joke: Guy tells the wife he's going to play golf. He meets some sexy gal on the course, they play in together, have a few drinks in the clubhouse and he ends up at her place. After making love to here several times he passes out. When he wakes up it's almost dark and he jets home in his car only to meet a pissed off wife with a dry roast in the oven. He comes clean and tells her the whole truth and his wife says, " Don't lie to me, damnit! You played 36!!"

 

[macneilb]

When you see someone at the table, looking at a shot, and then they place the chalk even close to where they need to shot, I'll tell them they can't have the chalk near the line they are needing to shot or I will call a foul on them for attempting to cheat. If they choose to complain, I pull out a rule book, tell them to read the rule they broke, and if they still don't like it, to either play by the rules or forfeit. Though I do only call it for games involving some sort of money. And to say that someone needs to mind their own game if they are moving your aiming device/chalk on the rail right near where your actual aim needs to be, then you need to be a better sport and move the chalk yourself. Now if they are waiting till right before you are literally about to strike the ball, then they can be called for sharking.

The rule is against marking the table. Rubbing the chalk off the tip of your cue on the table leaves a mark on the playing surface. Licking your finger and leaving a wet spot where you're aiming leaves a mark on the playing surface. Putting down the chalk doesn't affect the playing surface, therefore, it's not making the table. Point is, I can put down the chalk wherever I like, as it's not affecting the playing surface.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The rule is against marking the table. Rubbing the chalk off the tip of your cue on the table leaves a mark on the playing surface. Licking your finger and leaving a wet spot where you're aiming leaves a mark on the playing surface. Putting down the chalk doesn't affect the playing surface, therefore, it's not making the table. Point is, I can put down the chalk wherever I like, as it's not affecting the playing surface.

The way I understand the rule, this is not correct. From the World Rules:

8.1 Parts of the Table
The following definitions of parts of the table refer to the accompanying diagram. Some details of exact size and placement are in the WPA Equipment Specifications.
The table is comprised of rails, cushions, a playing surface and pockets. The foot end of the table is where the object balls usually begin, while the head end is where the cue ball usually begins.
Behind the head string is the area between the head rail and the head string, not including the head string.
The cushions, tops of the rails, pockets and pocket liners are parts of the rails...

You said it yourself, the rule says it is illegal to mark the table. It is not limited to the playing surface. Clearly the tops of the rails constitute part of the table.

It is even more clear that it is against BCAPL rules:

1.39 Marking the Table
It is a foul if you intentionally mark the table in any way to assist you in executing any shot or future shot. Marking includes the deliberate placement of chalk or any other object at a specific point on a rail or cushion to aid the alignment of a shot, or placing any mark on any part of the table. The foul occurs at the moment you mark the table, regardless of whether you remove the mark or whether a shot is taken.

 

[macneilb]

The way I understand the rule, this is not correct. From the World Rules:



You said it yourself, the rule says it is illegal to mark the table. It is not limited to the playing surface. Clearly the tops of the rails constitute part of the table.

It is even more clear that it is against BCAPL rules:

I stand corrected. Thank you for clarifying. However, I still stand by letting it go, as there's too much grey area if a person was/wasn't using it as a marker, and it does lead to senseless "yes you were"..."no I wasn't" type arguments. One question though, if I had to make a shot (not a kick) where i had to punch the CB over to a certain part of the rail, and I left the chalk there as a marker to where the CB had to get, would that be a foul? It's not being used in the alignment of a shot..

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I stand corrected. Thank you for clarifying. However, I still stand by letting it go, as there's too much grey area if a person was/wasn't using it as a marker, and it does lead to senseless "yes you were"..."no I wasn't" type arguments. One question though, if I had to make a shot (not a kick) where i had to punch the CB over to a certain part of the rail, and I left the chalk there as a marker to where the CB had to get, would that be a foul? It's not being used in the alignment of a shot..

My understanding is yes, that is illegal as well. I'm not sure the rule spells out "shot" but even if it did I would maintain that where the cue ball goes after it contacts the object ball is part of the shot. If it wasn't there would be a lot fewer scratches.

BTW, as I said before in response to your previous post, I agree with you that there's not much you can do about it so why get all bent? Just figure you've learned something about your opponent.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... One question though, if I had to make a shot (not a kick) where i had to punch the CB over to a certain part of the rail, and I left the chalk there as a marker to where the CB had to get, would that be a foul? It's not being used in the alignment of a shot..

Yes, it's a foul.

Bob Byrne tells a story about Bob Bills, the former owner of Palace Billiards in San Francisco. He was playing a kick shot on a 6x12-foot snooker table (in a game of golf) and after carefully measuring, he walked over to the other side of the table and put a piece of chalk down where he thought he should hit. As he walked back to the other side of the table, one of his opponents reached out with his cue tip and moved the chalk over a couple of inches. Bob got around to shoot, went straight for the chalk and nailed the shot dead-center.

 

[JMuck]

Yes, it's a foul.

Bob Byrne tells a story about Bob Bills, the former owner of Palace Billiards in San Francisco. He was playing a kick shot on a 6x12-foot snooker table (in a game of golf) and after carefully measuring, he walked over to the other side of the table and put a piece of chalk down where he thought he should hit. As he walked back to the other side of the table, one of his opponents reached out with his cue tip and moved the chalk over a couple of inches. Bob got around to shoot, went straight for the chalk and nailed the shot dead-center.

Hahaha,very good!

 

[AtLarge]

Yes, it's a foul.

... one of his opponents reached out with his cue tip and moved the chalk over a couple of inches. Bob got around to shoot, went straight for the chalk and nailed the shot dead-center.

Maybe the "opponent" was his partner!

 

[Bob Jewett]

Maybe the "opponent" was his partner!

It was in a golf game where you usually don't have partners (unless there is a con in progress).

 

[tatcat2000]

This does make me thing of another question though. Suppose your opponent plays safe and leaves you a kick shot. It just so happens a piece of chalk is sitting on the rail EXACTLY where you need to kick. It was already there - you didn't put it there. Is it a foul to use the chalk as a reference? Do you need to move the chalk away from the spot to be sure you won't get called for using it as an aid? Obviously it doesn't break the rule of marking the table because you didn't place it there, but what about the other rule (intended use of equipment). Even though you didn't place the chalk in that spot, if you use it as an aiming device wouldn't you be breaking the rule?

WWBD? (What Would Buddy Decide?).......Buddy? :grin-square:

Intent is EVRYTHING people. No intent, no foul. And remember that, in the event of an argument, intent is determined by the referee! Judge Judy time - simple as that.

The incidental existence of a piece of chalk previously deposited on the rail at the kick point for your shot is totally irrelevant and, if you think about it, it would be totally irrelevant to the shooter. Why, you ask?

Absent of any other assistance, how would the shooter know the chalk was a target if they did not already know the proper aim point???

Sometimes you have to help players (and referees/TD's) logically back into this stuff when players are screaming for a foul with no good reason. It reminds me of an incident that happened a few years ago at BCAPL Nationals:

Player A fouled. Player B, intently studying the lay of the table, walked around to the CB, and then picked up the 1-ball, which was, incidentally, close to the CB. Well, Player B started screaming foul. The ref in the section correctly said no foul, but rather accidental movement under BCAPL 1.33 - replace the 1-ball, pick up the cue ball and carry on.

Player A wasn't gonna have any of it, and demanded a Head Referee. I complied, and listened to Player A argue that it couldn't be accidental movement, because it was impossible to "accidentally" cause your hand to reach out and pick up a ball. (In principle, kind of like the "chalk already on the rail at the aim point" situation.) At that point I asked player A:

"Why would anyone intentionally pick up an OB instead of the CB?"

The look on Player A's face was precious. The 1-ball was replaced, Player B picked up the CB and the world was right.

Side note - The BCAPL is, properly, not a fan of having to back into anything. BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.33 Situation 7 was published because of that incident.

B