Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

Reasons for decline

1pocket said:
My observation is that the rooms around me have closed because no more young people were coming in. There used to be at least half the tables loaded with 3-4 players in their teens and early 20's -- none of whom could really play, but they were all having fun, and that included girls too. Then it seemed like overnight, no more of these casual young players, just out for fun. They apparently found other things to do. It was uncanny really. I have no idea where they went -- video games maybe?
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Yeah, video games-the ones at home though, not the ones you put quarters in. The internet too, and the smart phones, and all of the other high tech goodies that make playing pool seem passe to them. It did seem to be overnight, and uncanny, like maybe someone said "ok we're all staying home and connecting on our computers". Young people no longer need a place to go connect with their friends because they are always connected with their friends on Facebook and Twitter. If you depend on that group, you've got a problem. If you sell cues and cases, the internet is a problem there too. The day will likely come when almost all billiard equipment is purchased on the internet. Much of it is now. Costco sells a Brunswick table package delivered and installed for $1995. That's tough to compete with, as was the wave of Chinese tables and the huge influx of used tables on the market from the housing crisis and the failure of pool rooms. High rents, changing regulations, rising utility, food and employee costs, the bad economy and, yes, the smoking bans have combined to create a tough environment to survive in. Which of these are the most devastating depends on the makeup of each individual pool room. Oregon banned smoking in 2009 but to us it was a non-issue because we have been non smoking for 24 years by choice. The fact that young people left the pool rooms was a really big issue. There can't be many rooms left that survive on pool time and nothing else, but if you do, you get a lot of respect from me.

Dave Smith
 
Poolhalls

Many bars in Minot still allow smoking, but pool appears to be dying here also. I think the DUI issue may be a big issue for bars and pool. I plan to keep my drivers license so I can effectively do my job, so I don't drink much and don't go out to play pool much except at league. I think that insurable license-holders may get the best jobs soon. Also, work here is so demanding, many guys going to 4-on and 4-off or 2 weeks on/2 weeks off with oil work, so they aren't able to work out league schedules. There are a lot of issues.
 
When I started this thread, I was expecting good info from experienced room owners. I got very little of that. Instead I flushed up a bunch anti-smoking zealots and libertarian fanatics who think they know all about the poolroom business. They got it all figured out. There are about 10 good relevant responses and more than 200 from people who have never met a poolroom/bar/restaurant payroll or any other of the dozens of expenses related to this business.

The OP makes no argument for or against. The new laws are here. There is nothing to argue about. Here is my point: Yes, 70% of the poolrooms are gone. More significantly, 30% are still here. What are they doing? What have they done to adjust to this new era?

New York is my neighbor state. They were the first ones in on the smoking ban. I got to watch first hand all the rooms close in New York long before the plague hit the billiard room business in the rest of the US. If a room owner knows that a smoking ban hurts business, and more significantly, how and why it hurts business, he is on his way to make needed, posative adjustments.

Smoking and demographics are related. Pool does not have a smoking ban problem. It has a demographics problem (evidenced in the OP and by cueandcushion in post #141). I have fought this demographics issue, tooth and nail, for 34 years, not by discouraging anyone but by offering more to appeal to a higher demographic. When I first opened, I carried about 20 different beers. Today, I inventory more than 130 domestic, import, and craft beers. There is a full beer menu with a detailed description of each beer, some costing as much as $20. I do quite a few obvious things and hundreds of small things that are not obvious except to the trained eye.

With the new smoking laws, the old business model for a billiard room does not work. Mike Page (post #190) opened a fabulous new room in Fargo not long ago. Mike is doing some things differently and I hear he has been successful in attracting a new demographic. It would be great to read more of his thoughts. Please. Let’s here more from AZ room owners. There are many, many who browse here regularly.
 
Paul Schofield said:
When I started this thread, I was expecting good info from experienced room owners. I got very little of that. Instead I flushed up a bunch anti-smoking zealots and libertarian fanatics who think they know all about the poolroom business. They got it all figured out. There are about 10 good relevant responses and more than 200 from people who have never met a poolroom/bar/restaurant payroll or any other of the dozens of expenses related to this business.
Click to expand...

You posted this in the Main Forum. You are going to get responses from everyone, in the Main Forum. By my unofficial count, (because I'm not gonna go back and re-read the whole thing) you had three room owners who are doing better, and one who isn't. So you did get some room owner response. If you wanted opinions from only room owners, you would have had a better chance of that in the Room Owner sub-forum. But no, you wanted the whole audience, you just don't want them to participate.

So far as "zealotry" goes, I think this thread was far more civil than previous smoking threads. The subject does kind of only allow for 2 main veiwpoints, so opinions are likely to be extreme, one way or the other. It would seem by the use of the term "anti-smoking zealots" that you yourself are indeed a smoker, and are unhappy with the way this country is turning in regards to smoking in public places. You really haven't clarified that point, even though it has been asked a few different times. (perhaps you did; it has been a long thread...)

I think you have heard more than a few responses to the fact that room owners are going to have to do a better job appealing to their target clientele, and to stop using smoking as an easy excuse as to why thier business is failing. Because obviously some places are successful in this new environment.

But any of us who don't own a room probably shouldn't express an opinion here, right? Even though I have to meet payroll in my business, and market to my customer base, and deal with supply and demand, and cost of goods sold, advertising, meeting occupancy requirements and expenses.... right? Nothing similar in those issues, so I couldn't possibly have any reasonable expectation of understanding what another business owner might have to go through, so anything I think would have to be invalid. I get it, Paul. You and Mike from Fargo, and Do It For The Game, and BilliardChick, and Cue And Cushion (those are the only actual room owners in the thread, again by my limited memory) can have the thread all to yourselves, and the rest of us should just shut up. We couldn't possibly add anything to the discussion.

Methinks you want a pulpit to preach from.
 
Adding that the demographics problem isnt necessarily just a pool problem. Its a fundamental change in our society. Less family unit means less fathers that teach their kids pool. Pool takes a lot of time to learn. The mental and physical traits to become proficient at pool is not what most kids want these days. They want to be an "expert level" in a matter of days, like Modern Warfare or other games. How many sports still have the superstars of 20 years ago? Pool does! Nick Varner and Earl Strickland and Efren Reyes were stars 20 years ago. Pool just doesnt attract a lot of people that are excelling in this sport like it used to. This is because less and less young people are entering the game at a high level. Shane is the biggest exception. The next generation of pool players know there is no big payday in pool, so younger players look at it as just a hobby. I know when I see younger players getting really good in pool, they are pounced on by older players and endlessly berated if they don't gamble. They gamble, they lose, the older players laugh, and another player has less enthusiasm about the game. The sport of pool has a lot of issues contributing to its demise. Its not about one or two or three "bullet points" to discuss in a forum in five minutes. It's closer to 100 issues that all overlap that need to be addressed of how to change pool for the next generations. Owners and players both need to stop trying to change kids to fit into the sport of pool; they need to change pool to fit into the next generation of kids.
 
Paul Schofield said:
When I started this thread, I was expecting good info from experienced room owners. I got very little of that. Instead I flushed up a bunch anti-smoking zealots and libertarian fanatics who think they know all about the poolroom business. They got it all figured out. There are about 10 good relevant responses and more than 200 from people who have never met a poolroom/bar/restaurant payroll or any other of the dozens of expenses related to this business.

The OP makes no argument for or against. The new laws are here. There is nothing to argue about. Here is my point: Yes, 70% of the poolrooms are gone. More significantly, 30% are still here. What are they doing? What have they done to adjust to this new era?

New York is my neighbor state. They were the first ones in on the smoking ban. I got to watch first hand all the rooms close in New York long before the plague hit the billiard room business in the rest of the US. If a room owner knows that a smoking ban hurts business, and more significantly, how and why it hurts business, he is on his way to make needed, posative adjustments.

Smoking and demographics are related. Pool does not have a smoking ban problem. It has a demographics problem (evidenced in the OP and by cueandcushion in post #141). I have fought this demographics issue, tooth and nail, for 34 years, not by discouraging anyone but by offering more to appeal to a higher demographic. When I first opened, I carried about 20 different beers. Today, I inventory more than 130 domestic, import, and craft beers. There is a full beer menu with a detailed description of each beer, some costing as much as $20. I do quite a few obvious things and hundreds of small things that are not obvious except to the trained eye.

With the new smoking laws, the old business model for a billiard room does not work. Mike Page (post #190) opened a fabulous new room in Fargo not long ago. Mike is doing some things differently and I hear he has been successful in attracting a new demographic. It would be great to read more of his thoughts. Please. Let’s here more from AZ room owners. There are many, many who browse here regularly.
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I live in Chattanooga where smoking is allowed in bars and pool rooms. A room opened here around six years ago that was non-smoking. It not only survived, but it did well (I'm just guessing). It's semi-upscale with a poker room and dart boards. The place is clean, well lit with clean bathrooms. The normal old school gambling pool players avoid it like the plague. There are young couples, old codgers and families that play there.

The recipe seems to have worked. Middle income people come in to play pool. I was skeptical myself when it first opened. I was wrong.

Target the average Joe, he spends money.
 
you can still smoke in New Orleans

Seems to me that Paul's room had a head start on the smoking ban. With such an extensive list of rules on who can get in he already weeded the "less intelligent" group out. There shouldn't have been any idiots left who smoke.----We can still smoke in New orleans because the bars got lumped into smoking ban bill with Harrahs Casino. Harrahs gets whatever they want.---So far they lowered their tax rate when they complained they couldn't pay it,---They allowed them restaurants and a hotel when at first they couldn't have any.-- They also were supposed to keep so many full time employees and have since lowered that number... I expect as soon as they figure out to exclude Harrahs we will also see a smoking ban in our pool rooms . I know a smoking ban would hurt my business and believe me if Harrah's Casino thought it would help one little bit u wouldn't b able to lite up driving over there.....In New Orleans the group that smokes ---also drink hard and play the poker machines longer and more often ..Those that don't-- play an hour want everything perfect and are sure to tell you when things are not. If i had to pick --A smokin customers or B non smokin customers I would chose A every time.--I want both and I don't smoke myself . I guess I will die from lung cancer someday ---We do have stand alone smoke eaters and have smoke eaters on the a/c units too. I want to live.---Like it or not i think the guy is right. I am sure he knows what's up in his own place.
 
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Stumie71 suggested in post #71 that I call Barry Behrman and talk to him about the VA laws and how he adjusted to them. I did just that and I had a good conversation with Barry.

Virginia's new smoking law allows for smoking and non-smoking to co-exist in the same business. The smoking areas must be walled off and have negative airflow with separate ventilation and HVAC units..

His room was always smoking. He expanded the room with non-smoking areas and it increased his business. Now when a customer walks in the door, it goes like this:
Would you like a table?
Big-table or small-table?
Smoking or non-smoking?
 
Around here they did not ban smokers from the businesses with pool tables,they just banned the smoke.The smokers still come play pool but they go outside to smoke.This does however run up the heating and AC bills or for the struggling businesses it means it can get pretty cold or uncomfortably hot when you are playing pool.
 
justadub said:
You posted this in the Main Forum. You are going to get responses from everyone, in the Main Forum. By my unofficial count, (because I'm not gonna go back and re-read the whole thing) you had three room owners who are doing better, and one who isn't. So you did get some room owner response. If you wanted opinions from only room owners, you would have had a better chance of that in the Room Owner sub-forum. But no, you wanted the whole audience, you just don't want them to participate.

So far as "zealotry" goes, I think this thread was far more civil than previous smoking threads. The subject does kind of only allow for 2 main veiwpoints, so opinions are likely to be extreme, one way or the other. It would seem by the use of the term "anti-smoking zealots" that you yourself are indeed a smoker, and are unhappy with the way this country is turning in regards to smoking in public places. You really haven't clarified that point, even though it has been asked a few different times. (perhaps you did; it has been a long thread...)

I think you have heard more than a few responses to the fact that room owners are going to have to do a better job appealing to their target clientele, and to stop using smoking as an easy excuse as to why thier business is failing. Because obviously some places are successful in this new environment.

But any of us who don't own a room probably shouldn't express an opinion here, right? Even though I have to meet payroll in my business, and market to my customer base, and deal with supply and demand, and cost of goods sold, advertising, meeting occupancy requirements and expenses.... right? Nothing similar in those issues, so I couldn't possibly have any reasonable expectation of understanding what another business owner might have to go through, so anything I think would have to be invalid. I get it, Paul. You and Mike from Fargo, and Do It For The Game, and BilliardChick, and Cue And Cushion (those are the only actual room owners in the thread, again by my limited memory) can have the thread all to yourselves, and the rest of us should just shut up. We couldn't possibly add anything to the discussion.

Methinks you want a pulpit to preach from.
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Nice post!!

KMRUNOUT
 
justadub, kmrunout

Oh-come-on. You guys know better. Read the OP. No one is telling anyone to shut up. I am only trying to keep the discussion from degrading down to the politics of the ban. That argument is heated, worthless, and now moot.

70% of our rooms are gone and the smoking ban played a major role in their demise. We are not going to hear from them. We are going to hear from members of the 30% who will tell us why the smoking ban has not affected them. This is exactly who we want to hear from. They are doing something different. I encourage not only room owners but also customers who frequent the 30% to give us their take as to what their local room is doing differently. I think there is much to be learned here.

These rooms have obviously attracted a different demographic. How did they do it?
 
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Small bar owners here in my part of Virginia are mostly ignoring the smoking ban. The ban does allow for a smoking room if it has it's own seperate ventilation, and if it is physically seperated from the non-smoking area by a door. Effectively this loophole has allowed people to ignore the ban. One bar owner created a non-smoking room outside. Others have put some paint on the back room that used to be storage and labelled it non-smoking. There were parts ordered to seperate the ventilation systems, but as no fines were being awarded they cancelled the work.

There is a legitimate concern that if BAR A goes non smoking while BAR B next door doesn't they will be at a distinct disadvantage. I agree with this and understand why they are ignoring it. However, if the ban had been implemented without exception then all the bar owners would be in the same boat.

Some bar owners are "reinventing their bar" during this transition period to appeal to a wider demographic, hoping to survive when society forces compliance with the ban. It will eventually happen, and they are going to be better prepared than the ones with their head in the sand.

Will bars go away without smoking? LOL. They won't. Will pool go away without smoking? Same answer. If anything, as the remaining bars will cater to a wider demographic then pool will benefit.
 
Paul Schofield said:
justadub, kmrunout



These rooms have obviously attracted a different demographic. How did they do it?
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I think a bigger problem with billiard parlors over the past ten years is an unwillingness to change with the times. If you believed at any point in the past five years that your state wasnt going to or ISNT going to go nonsmoking...you are fooling yourself. Soon it will be everywhere. Even for states that currently have exemptions...they will not last. Start preparing today for it.
I still cannot believe how many pool rooms do not have a website. How do you reach a new generation? The Yellow Pages? No one under 30 uses the yellow pages anymore. Three major rooms in St Louis that have gone under in the past year...NONE Of them even had a website!
Twitter? Facebook? Foursquare? Does YOUR favorite room have these? If not they are not getting ready for the future, they are clinging to the past.
If you want younger customers in your place start putting things in that younger people WANT. Bring in micro brew beers. Sell appetizers besides chicken wings and cheese sticks. Try sushi or Portebello mushroom sandwiches. Put in a Diamond smart table instead of a 25cent bar box that uses a 3 inch clayball as a cueball. There are 1000 ways to experiment with bringing in a new demographic. Some work. Some dont. Each room is different. If you are staying the same, while the competition is changing do you really expect to get a big percentage of the next generation?

There are a lot of failed experiments we have tried at my room. But every now and then something works and in brings in new customers. Doing this consistently is what will save pool. Well..at least save YOUR favorite pool room anyway....
 
Paul Schofield said:
justadub, kmrunout

Oh-come-on. You guys know better. Read the OP. No one is telling anyone to shut up. I am only trying to keep the discussion from degrading down to the politics of the ban. That argument is heated, worthless, and now moot.

70% of our rooms are gone and the smoking ban played a major role in their demise. We are not going to hear from them. We are going to hear from members of the 30% who will tell us why the smoking ban has not affected them. This is exactly who we want to hear from. They are doing something different. I encourage not only room owners but also customers who frequent the 30% to give us their take as to what their local room is doing differently. I think there is much to be learned here.

These rooms have obviously attracted a different demographic. How did they do it?
Click to expand...

Post #223, from you, Paul:

"When I started this thread, I was expecting good info from experienced room owners. I got very little of that. Instead I flushed up a bunch anti-smoking zealots and libertarian fanatics who think they know all about the poolroom business. They got it all figured out. There are about 10 good relevant responses and more than 200 from people who have never met a poolroom/bar/restaurant payroll or any other of the dozens of expenses related to this business."

And now you want our opinions? I thought those of us who don't own or operate rooms don't have anything valid to add to the conversation.

You and others have laid out a good groundwork... clean bathrooms, reasonable rates, food and drinks available, equipment kept up. Beyond that, you are looking at a local phenomenon. Every market will be different. Who can you attract, and then how do you do it? What competition do you have? Do you/will you have leagues? Where are you located, in regards to other business and who are their primary customers and appropriate demographics? Can you afford advertising, and what type? Can you attract pro/semi-pro's for appearances, and would that make sense financially? Do you have music, bands, DJ's, or go without?

We could do this all night. If you'd really like, you could start with those sorts of things. If our experience and opinions matter.

I think you really do want to work on these issues, Paul. I just think that sometimes you address it in an unfortunate way here.
 
justadub

Your right. I will reword it. I did mean to say: When I started this thread, I was expecting good info from experienced room owners and enthusiasts.
 
I know this is about pool in the USA seemingly declining due to the smoking ban.
But here in NZ where the smoking thing had been banned for 8 years or more, we are seeing alot of younger people coming in and playing 9ball 8ball etc.Some nights you can't get a table at the local pool hall.
Granted smokers have to go outside to smoke, not very many people that smoke turn up to play.
Sometimes at the local bar, the pool comps on Wed night have to be drawn doubles as too many turn up.
A great sign really. Another good sign, is houses being designed and the display houses with a pool table in the games room.
All these things I think is a positive for pool.
This is when to play on a bar table is $2 a game and the pool halls charge $7 per hour per person. Single table or shared table is still the same price per person.
Neil
 
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cueandcushion said:
I think a bigger problem with billiard parlors over the past ten years is an unwillingness to change with the times. If you believed at any point in the past five years that your state wasnt going to or ISNT going to go nonsmoking...you are fooling yourself. Soon it will be everywhere. Even for states that currently have exemptions...they will not last. Start preparing today for it.
I still cannot believe how many pool rooms do not have a website. How do you reach a new generation? The Yellow Pages? No one under 30 uses the yellow pages anymore. Three major rooms in St Louis that have gone under in the past year...NONE Of them even had a website!
Twitter? Facebook? Foursquare? Does YOUR favorite room have these? If not they are not getting ready for the future, they are clinging to the past.
If you want younger customers in your place start putting things in that younger people WANT. Bring in micro brew beers. Sell appetizers besides chicken wings and cheese sticks. Try sushi or Portebello mushroom sandwiches. Put in a Diamond smart table instead of a 25cent bar box that uses a 3 inch clayball as a cueball. There are 1000 ways to experiment with bringing in a new demographic. Some work. Some dont. Each room is different. If you are staying the same, while the competition is changing do you really expect to get a big percentage of the next generation?

There are a lot of failed experiments we have tried at my room. But every now and then something works and in brings in new customers. Doing this consistently is what will save pool. Well..at least save YOUR favorite pool room anyway....
Click to expand...

Great post! I have a website and a Facebook page for our room. When people are doing searches, they look online and find our website. Once they get to know us and the room, I keep them updated on tournaments and events via Facebook. I think it is a great, great tool for our business :cool:
 
Post #223, from Paul:

"When I started this thread, I was expecting good info from experienced room owners. I got very little of that. Instead I flushed up a bunch anti-smoking zealots and libertarian fanatics who think they know all about the poolroom business. They got it all figured out. There are about 10 good relevant responses and more than 200 from people who have never met a poolroom/bar/restaurant payroll or any other of the dozens of expenses related to this business."
Actually, if you read the title of the post "why pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws" and read the first post, he actually wasn't asking for anything from experienced room owners as far as I can tell. It clearly states that you think the new smoking laws are ruining pool. We are all of course entitled to our opinion. As someone with experience running a pool hall, one that we successfully changed over to a nonsmoking pool hall at that, I do not think the nonsmoking laws are ruining pool. I think they might actually help save it. Maybe they will help change the old pool rooms into places where the old group of people plus a different demographic of people will actually play. With that being said, you also asked how people who went nonsmoking attracted a different group of people. Well, I was involved before it went nonsmoking and after it went nonsmoking and the only thing that changed was the smoke went away. It was successful both ways, but it has been more successful as a nonsmoking business. Now, our old clients still come in but we also have more new clients, families, and younger people who come in as well. Guess what?....the smokers still come and play! Not being able to smoke while they are playing does not keep them from coming in the poolroom and playing!!! :grin:
What do I think makes us successful? Nice tables (7 and 9 foot Diamonds, 10 Foot Snooker table, and a 8' Dynamo coin table thrown in as well), great environment, comfortable, clean, and we have great tournaments that cater to different levels of players and don't just focus on the folks who make a living grabbing tournament money). We work to get the BS out of the pool room--no fights, no drugs, no trouble. If you cause problems, you get banned from our room! Our place is a great place to hang out and play and the prices are reasonable :smile:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001627638774
 
GREAT RESPONSE BiLLIARDCHICK! It seems to me that there must be more non smokers than there are smokers now and certainly in the future. Beyond that smokers are not told to enter just that they cannot smoke in non smoking areas of businesses. If a room owner refuses to change the way he's doing business than maybe he's doing great the way things are but if not why would you not attempt to change? To stay with what is not working seems to spell the end to me and sadly many are doing just that. Time will weed out the successful ones from those that are not. Just an opinion from a pool player...
 
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