4 Points from 1 Block

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Hi,

On a recent thread Dick mentioned he got 4 points from 1 piece of 3/4" point stock. As fate had it my first task in the shop this morning was to cut points for "The Civil War Art Cue". I just finished the job and documented it with my camera to share this cost saving method with my fellow CMs.

This is the trick that the point stock sellers and veneer vendors don't want you to know, LOL. When you figure how much money you save it is a no brainer.

I build 5 point cues for 90% of what comes out of my shop and using this method I usually make 3 blocks with 4 veneers and I get 2 cues and 2 extra points or 4 blocks and get 3 cues with 1 extra point.

The Civil War Art Cues I am building this week only has 4 points but you will see 2 blocks in the pics. As a point of clarification as not to confuse, the reason there is 2 points shown is because one has yellow-gray-yellow and on has yellow-blue-yellow which depicts the colors of the uniforms of the north and south. I am building two "Civil War Cues" and each will have 2 points for the north and 2 points for the south. So the veneered points shown here are to make 2 cues.

Here is a step by step description with pics. Because you are using all four corners, you should use a jointer to hold the right angles perfect for the best results.

If anyone has any questions, give me a call @ 847 641-0276 from 10 am to late at night CST.

Good Cue Making,

Rick

The only jigs you need are very simple to make. 45 degree V groove and glue some 220 sand paper in the grooves so it holds the piece nice while band sawing. Notice that you must cut one shorter on the left side to clear the saw when finishing the cut. ( This will be seen in other detailed pics. ) The cut line is 5/8" on one side and 3/16" on the point side.
IMG_4128.jpg

Mount the stock in the V Jigs and cut the line with the band saw. This line will not be straight with the table as you must hold a slight angle to accommodate a straight line that you penciled in on the stock.
IMG_4129.jpg

Once you have cut about 4" of line, turn off the saw and move one v block on the backside of the blade for stability. Keep the cut off V Jig on the business side of the saw so you can carefully make that end of the cut accurate and stable as the blade cuts through.
IMG_4130.jpg

Now spin the piece 180 on the A axis and cut another point with the fat side on the same end. This will leave you with a wedge shaped object with 2 flat sides. Shown here is to 2 pieces cut off and the remaining stock. Notice how the piece lays flat on the table with a flat side also facing up.
IMG_4131.jpg

Now just lay it on the bandsaw bed without any v jig and cut the line that is just outside the last veneer. Flip it over and do the other side. Wa La. The total time to lay this out and make 4 cuts was about 10 minutes and I save about $ 30.00 per cue doing it this way in veneers and points. Since this was only 3 veneers I save about 24.00. Not to mention a little time saving in labor. In the long run, it all adds up.
IMG_4132.jpg

Here is the end product. 4 nice points ready to be glued into the forearm. After cutting the points off, notice how much stock is still there. Nice colored door stops! :clapping:
IMG_4133.jpg

The end product, ready for glue up.
IMG_4135.jpg
 
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points

Great info Rick.

I have already wasted 10 bf of wood doing it my way. I will try yours tomorrow. LOL

Math....

Not taking into consideration the thickness of the veneers, I calculate the following...........

The diagonal of the 3/4 wood is.....

An equilateral right triangle's hypotenuse is the sq root of 2 times any side.

so.... 3/4 times 1.414 = 1.0605

1/2 of 1.0605 = .53025......

so.......that means that the max depth you can cut the butt of the point into the piece is about 1/2 inch and still have it turn clean. Add a little bit for the veneers and a little bit for the oversize of the piece.......


now where's my band saw?????

Kim
 
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Great info Rick.

I have already wasted 10 bf of wood doing it my way. I will try yours tomorrow. LOL

Math....

Not taking into consideration the thickness of the veneers, I calculate the following...........

The diagonal of the 3/4 wood is.....

An equilateral right triangle's hypotenuse is the sq root of 2 times any side.

so.... 3/4 times 1.414 = 1.0605

1/2 of 1.0605 = .53025......

so.......that means that the max depth you can cut the butt of the point into the piece is about 1/2 inch and still have it turn clean. Add a little bit for the veneers and a little bit for the oversize of the piece.......


now where's my band saw?????

Kim

Kim,

I cut my grooves when the nose is at .930 and when I turn down to .844 everything works out real nice with wide points. The angle of the mill table and the depth of the y embedment plus the length where the points run off can create a lot of permutations to the geometry. I have dowel indexer pins for my 4 or 5 point cues. I wrote a profiling program to do in on my CNC but I still like doing it by hand milling. It only takes me 20 minutes to cut 5 point grooves.

Rick
 
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Nice post

That bottle of Ibuprofen is definitely a needed tool in any cue shop but when that don't work;)
 

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4 points

That was A GREAT presentation. Thank You. if you have time could you do the same thing and show how you did the veneers, on the blocks?
 
That was A GREAT presentation. Thank You. if you have time could you do the same thing and show how you did the veneers, on the blocks?

Hey Harp,

Unfortunately I have a ton of veneered point stock in inventory already glued up or I would be happy to take some pics and share.

All you do is run your point stock wood thru a jointer to make all sides parallel and 90 degree corners. Then simply glue veneer strips on two opposing sides. I use titebond. When they cure cut off the overhanging material with a router then flush sand carefully on a granite plate. Then do the opposite two sides and keep repeating the process.

Good Luck,

Rick
 
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Great info Rick.

I have already wasted 10 bf of wood doing it my way. I will try yours tomorrow. LOL

Math....

Not taking into consideration the thickness of the veneers, I calculate the following...........

The diagonal of the 3/4 wood is.....

An equilateral right triangle's hypotenuse is the sq root of 2 times any side.

so.... 3/4 times 1.414 = 1.0605

1/2 of 1.0605 = .53025......

so.......that means that the max depth you can cut the butt of the point into the piece is about 1/2 inch and still have it turn clean. Add a little bit for the veneers and a little bit for the oversize of the piece.......


now where's my band saw?????

Kim

If the final diameter of your A-joint is 1.0 inch or less then a half inch depth will cut your forearm into two pieces. If your final size A-joint is 1.030 you will cut to within .015 of center. Once again, the back half of the forearm will break off. You must take other precautions to prevent this scenario.

With the use of veneers you definitely, greatly increase the thickness of your point stock but if you make yours billets larger than is needed you are just going to turn the extra material into dust anyway. There are easier ways of building and cutting these points in my opinion. The way that Rick has posted is definitely a good option.

I have posted getting 4 points out of a single billet before on this forum and was ridiculed for it and was told it was impossible. I even offered to put up 1,000.00 against 50.00 that I could prove it but no one would take the bet. One cue maker said that he would happily pay me 50.00 to show him. I then sent him an e-mail describing exactly how to do it. Of coarse I never heard from him again.

Dick
 
If the final diameter of your A-joint is 1.0 inch or less then a half inch depth will cut your forearm into two pieces. If your final size A-joint is 1.030 you will cut to within .015 of center. Once again, the back half of the forearm will break off. You must take other precautions to prevent this scenario.

With the use of veneers you definitely, greatly increase the thickness of your point stock but if you make yours billets larger than is needed you are just going to turn the extra material into dust anyway. There are easier ways of building and cutting these points in my opinion. The way that Rick has posted is definitely a good option.

I have posted getting 4 points out of a single billet before on this forum and was ridiculed for it and was told it was impossible. I even offered to put up 1,000.00 against 50.00 that I could prove it but no one would take the bet. One cue maker said that he would happily pay me 50.00 to show him. I then sent him an e-mail describing exactly how to do it. Of coarse I never heard from him again.

Dick

Hey Dick,

Where do you think I got the idea to do it this way? You saved me at lot of money. It took me a few points to get the process right but like anything else in life, "you throw enough crap against the wall, some has to stick".

Also, many people think that folded veneers or mitered veneers are a better way of construction. When it is all said and done the goal is to get no miter or glue line and make the veneers seamless. I have a process in my method that nails seamless with the around the block method which took me over 7 years to perfect and I did not start getting high consistency until a few months ago after I started doing this full time for the last 14 months.

I like to share things here because many people have shared with me over the years and I appreciate it. The seamless part of my process is proprietary and is one of the few things that I will keep close to the vest because to get to that standard is very time consuming. So wether you miter, fold or glue around the block, it is the final inspection by the guy with the loupe that counts.

Thanks,

Rick
 
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Great info Rick.

I have already wasted 10 bf of wood doing it my way. I will try yours tomorrow. LOL

Math....

Not taking into consideration the thickness of the veneers, I calculate the following...........

The diagonal of the 3/4 wood is.....

An equilateral right triangle's hypotenuse is the sq root of 2 times any side.

so.... 3/4 times 1.414 = 1.0605

1/2 of 1.0605 = .53025......

so.......that means that the max depth you can cut the butt of the point into the piece is about 1/2 inch and still have it turn clean. Add a little bit for the veneers and a little bit for the oversize of the piece.......


now where's my band saw?????

Kim

If the final diameter of your A-joint is 1.0 inch or less then a half inch depth will cut your forearm into two pieces. If your final size A-joint is 1.030 you will cut to within .015 of center. Once again, the back half of the forearm will break off so a half inch thickness is enough for all cues half/splice cues. If you want to cut your points to the center of the cue (which I do) you must take other precautions to prevent this scenario of cutting the cue in two.

With the use of veneers you definitely, greatly increase the thickness of your point stock but if you make yours billets larger than is needed you are just going to turn the extra material into dust anyway. There are easier ways of building and cutting these points in my opinion. The way that Rick has posted is definitely a good option.

I have posted getting 4 points out of a single billet before on this forum and was ridiculed for it and was told it was impossible. I even offered to put up 1,000.00 against 50.00 that I could prove it but no one would take the bet. One cue maker said that he would happily pay me 50.00 to show him. I then sent him an e-mail describing exactly how to do it. Of coarse I never heard from him again.

Dick
 
Hey Dick,

Where do you think I got the idea to do it this way? You saved me at lot of money. It took me a few points to get the process right but like anything else in life, "you throw enough crap against the wall, some has to stick".

Thanks,

Rick

I used to give detailed descriptions and pictures on how to do many, more difficult operations in cue construction. I have stopped doing this as it's to easy to be hand fed and then you never understand why it is the better way. I just throw out bait now so that builders know that there are better ways and it get's their brain working in figuring out the technique on their own and in so doing they learn ways that don't work and why.

Dick
 
May I ask how you cut the mitres on the veneers and get them fitting perfectly around the central square stock?
 
May I ask how you cut the mitres on the veneers and get them fitting perfectly around the central square stock?

Mitered veneers are a totally different beast than what's being shown in this thread. Dick most likely has a way to accomplish it on a square but I have never seen pictures of how it's done. I do it one point at a time when mitering.
 
I am puzzled. How can they match up like that if they are not mitred?

I must be missing something here, forgive my ignorance.
 
I am puzzled. How can they match up like that if they are not mitred?

I must be missing something here, forgive my ignorance.

Rick does a nice job so the joint lines are hard to see. Down load the pic that shows the end of the piece and then blow it up and you will see that the veneers overlap at the corners and are not mitered.

Kim
 
I am puzzled. How can they match up like that if they are not mitred?

I must be missing something here, forgive my ignorance.

Hey Agent,

When the corner of the point is glued into the glued groove the seam of the veneer is slightly off set by the thickness of the veneer size used. The V created by the colored veneers is still in the center. If you have a slight glue line it can be seen just offset because of the way the veneers were stacked.

The V geometry is down the center just like folding of mitering. Only the glue line is the tip off to the trained eye. Mitering, folding or gluing around the block are all good procedures and have all been used by the greatest cue-makers. It is a preference of construction technique.

What matters is do you see a line or not. I have just recently discovered a method whereby my glue lines are not reveled.

Rick G

Here is a cue I built 6 months ago before I learned to eliminate the line. If you look very close at the maple at the top you will see the slight offset glue line. In the past I have totally accepted this as a fact of life it did not bother me one bit. Now with my new method I strive to have Zero tolerance for glue line. Understand that this is a very hard thing to do and sometimes no matter what you do or what method you use, there is always a chance to see a slight glue line. It is the nature of the beast.
IMG_4139.jpg

In this close up you can see the line in the blue and the lower maple but the red is ok. The glue is why these lines are there not the joinery.
IMG_4138.jpg


Here is a cue that does not reveal the obvious glue lines. The last 3 point cues I made where at this level so I am optimistic that my new method will have legs over time, still tweaking the method.
IMG_4137.jpg
 
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Rick does a nice job so the joint lines are hard to see. Down load the pic that shows the end of the piece and then blow it up and you will see that the veneers overlap at the corners and are not mitered.

Kim

Did that, but I think my eyes must be going because I cannot see it clearly in those pictures. :D

Hey Agent,

When the corner of the point is glued into the glued groove the seam of the veneer is slightly off set by the thickness of the veneer size used. The V created by the colored veneers is still in the center. If you have a slight glue line it can be seen just offset because of the way the veneers were stacked.

The V geometry is down the center just like folding of mitering. Only the glue line is the tip off to the trained eye. Mitering, folding or gluing around the block are all good procedures and have all been used by the greatest cue-makers. It is a preference of construction technique.

What matters is do you see a line or not. I have just recently discovered a method whereby my glue lines are not reveled.

Rick G

Thank you for explaining.

Yes, I see those lines in the finished cue clearly and this would tell me that the veneers were not mitred.

But I was unable to make out from your pics whether they were mitred or not.

So, without wishing to pry into the method you have found to solve that problem, what you are telling me is that there are no mitres on your veneers?

Regardless, congratulations on finding a solution that works for you. It's good to find your own ways to make things 'perfect'. :smile:
 
Did that, but I think my eyes must be going because I cannot see it clearly in those pictures. :D



Thank you for explaining.

Yes, I see those lines in the finished cue clearly and this would tell me that the veneers were not mitred.

But I was unable to make out from your pics whether they were mitred or not.

So, without wishing to pry into the method you have found to solve that problem, what you are telling me is that there are no mitres on your veneers?

Regardless, congratulations on finding a solution that works for you. It's good to find your own ways to make things 'perfect'. :smile:

Hi,

No miters, stacked veneers around the point stock.

Not perfect yet, but I am getting closer.

Rick
 
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Great write up Rick, thanks for sharing. I am a bit confused as to why the cues have price tags on them tho, surely you'd want to keep them beauties for yourself.:thumbup:
 
Great write up Rick, thanks for sharing. I am a bit confused as to why the cues have price tags on them tho, surely you'd want to keep them beauties for yourself.:thumbup:

Thanks Dan,

Those tags were from a cue show I went to. I do feel a little sad when I sell a cue because of all of the effort that is put into it.

I have only tried to sell a few cues in my life and I kinda feel like I am pimping when I do. When I was building cues at my pool hall I never put up a display or approached anyone as a salesman to buy a cue from me. Even today 99% of my sales comes from people who approach me to buy or make a custom cue. I feel more at ease when someone knows they want one of my cues before we meet or talk.

Sure you have to put the salesman hat and explain the virtues of your product but is less painful when you are not trying to force a sale.

I have a website but have not unleashed it and may never do it as I have back orders now. My number one goal is to maintain a big inventory so when a player does approach me they have a lot of choices.

My cues have a solid maple core and are designed to play very similar to one another. When someone can hit with 20 or more cues with a test shaft, they can experience that hit with cues that have very different wood combos. When someone is testing my cues in inventory, understands my concept and acknowledges it, this is when I get the most satisfaction out of our profession.

Rick
 
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