Really ?
Can you tell if it's 5/16 18 or 3/8 UNF threads ?
Or if it has a metric sized tenon ? :yikes:
Does replacing a tenon affect playability?
- Thread starter Pre-Flag Master
- Start date
Really ?
Can you tell if it's 5/16 18 or 3/8 UNF threads ?
Or if it has a metric sized tenon ? :yikes:
QUOTE jschelin99
"Further down the thread, Carguy said: "There's more difference in weight than you would think, and that tiny difference in weight makes a significant difference in how the cue plays." This (coupled with my misunderstanding stated above) was the point I decided to call b***s***, and run my test."
This really isn't a matter of opinion any more, having been discussed on this forum and elsewhere and studied absolutely to death for some time now, as Kelly mentioned above. For years, in fact.
The difference in weight between a heavy ferrule and a light one, or none at all for that matter, affects the cue's performance in ways fixed in physics...I didn't think this up, Isaac Newton did.
I applaud you for doing your own research...most don't. But as counter-intuitive it may seem, that really-not-so-tiny difference in weight makes a big difference.
Try the search function at the top of the page. There are tons of interesting discussions on this very subject. It's been talked about here a lot. There's plenty to read.
In the end, you'll do it your way and I'll do it mine.
Robin
"Further down the thread, Carguy said: "There's more difference in weight than you would think, and that tiny difference in weight makes a significant difference in how the cue plays." This (coupled with my misunderstanding stated above) was the point I decided to call b***s***, and run my test."
This really isn't a matter of opinion any more, having been discussed on this forum and elsewhere and studied absolutely to death for some time now, as Kelly mentioned above. For years, in fact.
The difference in weight between a heavy ferrule and a light one, or none at all for that matter, affects the cue's performance in ways fixed in physics...I didn't think this up, Isaac Newton did.
I applaud you for doing your own research...most don't. But as counter-intuitive it may seem, that really-not-so-tiny difference in weight makes a big difference.
Try the search function at the top of the page. There are tons of interesting discussions on this very subject. It's been talked about here a lot. There's plenty to read.
In the end, you'll do it your way and I'll do it mine.
Robin
Last edited:
I'm not saying if you gave me an unknown cue, I could hit a few balls and then list off those four parameters and get all four of them right. Is that what you thought I was saying?
I have tried things. Jacoby cues have a bigger tenon, 3/8. I have had cues with a capped ferrule and played with them long enough to know how they play. Then I have taken them to a cue repairman and had the capped part of the ferrule cut off. Definite difference.
Right now I have a cue with no cap, big tenon, short ferrule and like the way it plays very much.
These are all parameters that have been discussed before and I'm not the only one that has stated these types of preferences. Don't you agree that a person can tell the difference?
Can you tell the difference Joey?
I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. For instance, I switched to an engineered shaft quite a few years ago because I liked how it felt when I struck the cue ball. My brain determined that the tactile sensation that traveled up my arm when I shot with the shaft felt good. As I define it, that's the feel of a cue. Many different descriptions of feel are: soft, hard, stiff, strong, dead, spongy, etc. A cue's feel is determined by every single piece used to make it, from the tip to the bumper, and everything in between.
Every player is different. That's why some play with Schons, eat chocolate chip ice cream, and prefer blondes. Others play with Meuccis, eat vanilla yogurt, and like redheads. Feel is personal taste, and has exactly zero to do with ball pocketing or cue ball control.
Pocketing balls and controlling the cue ball is 99.9% up to the player (yes, I made that number up!). If you don't hit the cue ball properly, the object ball doesn't go into the pocket and the cue ball doesn't go where you want it to go. Of course, there are some forces working against the player such as shaft deflection, but somehow the players before the days of engineered shafts could still run tables!
Finally, I don't have a Ph.D. in physics, so therefore I'm probably totally wrong, but there's absolutely no way on God's green Earth that you're going to convince me that an extra 0.058 oz at the end of a cue is going to *significantly* effect the outcome of a shot!!! Will it mathematically effect the shot. Yes, I'm sure there's some equation somewhere that shows that it does. But will it *SIGNIFICANTLY* effect the shot?
For example, according to Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation (yes, I have a college degree and took many math and physics classes!), every object exerts a force on every other object. Right now, as you are reading this, you are exerting a force on the Earth. But, your mass in relation to the mass of the Earth is so insignificant, it is effectively zero.
So, back to the extra mass at the end of the cue. Since a cue ball weighs 5.75 oz (between 5.5 and 6.0 oz, according to BCA website, so we'll split the difference), and there's this extra 0.058 oz in the ferrule, the cue ball weighs 99 times more than the extra mass. Is that extra mass really going to be a *significant* factor in the shot? Can a 200 lb man really be a significant factor against something else weighing 19,800 lbs?!? Nope!
Every player is different. That's why some play with Schons, eat chocolate chip ice cream, and prefer blondes. Others play with Meuccis, eat vanilla yogurt, and like redheads. Feel is personal taste, and has exactly zero to do with ball pocketing or cue ball control.
Pocketing balls and controlling the cue ball is 99.9% up to the player (yes, I made that number up!). If you don't hit the cue ball properly, the object ball doesn't go into the pocket and the cue ball doesn't go where you want it to go. Of course, there are some forces working against the player such as shaft deflection, but somehow the players before the days of engineered shafts could still run tables!
Finally, I don't have a Ph.D. in physics, so therefore I'm probably totally wrong, but there's absolutely no way on God's green Earth that you're going to convince me that an extra 0.058 oz at the end of a cue is going to *significantly* effect the outcome of a shot!!! Will it mathematically effect the shot. Yes, I'm sure there's some equation somewhere that shows that it does. But will it *SIGNIFICANTLY* effect the shot?
For example, according to Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation (yes, I have a college degree and took many math and physics classes!), every object exerts a force on every other object. Right now, as you are reading this, you are exerting a force on the Earth. But, your mass in relation to the mass of the Earth is so insignificant, it is effectively zero.
So, back to the extra mass at the end of the cue. Since a cue ball weighs 5.75 oz (between 5.5 and 6.0 oz, according to BCA website, so we'll split the difference), and there's this extra 0.058 oz in the ferrule, the cue ball weighs 99 times more than the extra mass. Is that extra mass really going to be a *significant* factor in the shot? Can a 200 lb man really be a significant factor against something else weighing 19,800 lbs?!? Nope!
Last edited:
sorry guys I'm with Jeff---my brain tells me what feels right and what doesn't. some drive fords some chevys and ect.. then u have guys driving old fords with chevy motors. it just come down to what that person prefers. until u take a robot and try every configuration on shafts, all the different ferrels, glues and length we'll never know. by the way I like moose tracks and brunettes shot with a hightower or my own cues
I disagree with the later part of that statement, because I think the feedback from the feel you get influences the brain, which in turn affects how you hit subsequent shots. I do get your point though and thoroughly agree that it's a matter of personal preference.
Fatz
It's mental.
My playing shaft has a 3/8 24 thread, no cap and has a hole 3 inches deep.
Yup. Many times a person's preconceived ideas will prevent them from progressing. I'm sure every cue guy has had more than one customer come to them wanting their shaft turned down because it's too big and they can't get any draw. "My old cue was 12.75mm and I could get all the English in the world!" So, you put the calipers on their "too big" shaft, and it's 12.5mm! Or, "My cue is too heavy, make it 19 oz." when it's really 18.5oz right now.
The mind is a powerful thing, and can be very dangerous in the wrong hands!
Disclaimer: I'm not perfect or always right. I can be stubborn, too. I try to keep an open mind. If I'm proven to be wrong, I'll admit it.
The mind is a powerful thing, and can be very dangerous in the wrong hands!
Disclaimer: I'm not perfect or always right. I can be stubborn, too. I try to keep an open mind. If I'm proven to be wrong, I'll admit it.
Last edited:
Yep, you are SO right!! I have a customer who just bought a brand new cue - he hasn't even shot balls with it yet. He wants a new tip and a retaper down to 12.5mm from 13mm. I suggested that we go with the new tip first and if he still feels like he would like it thinned down, we can do it down the line.
I hate to turn down work, but I hate worse to alienate a customer - IMHO part of our job is to help players become the best they can be, one step at a time.
My 2 cents,
Gary
i believe your thought process might be 99.9% mental
i believe if the tenon is replace correctly, there should be no change in the hit of the cue.
and now for the no ferrule, lighter ferrule question. bout 2-3 years ago i noticed someone here building a no ferrule shaft, i thought it was something new, but as it seems, brunswick was doing it 100 years ago.
i tried it and now most of my shafts are built with no ferrule, with a promise, if you buy this cue and do not like the way it plays i will install a ferrule for free. i have never had a cue returned, so my customers must like the way it plays. i also believe it gives your cue hand a faster response at contact with the cue ball, might just be in my mind, but if its just in my mind and makes me play better thats all that matters.
i have just started making ferrules out of strand woved bamboo, dont remenber exact weights but it weights about half as much as a grice ferrule.
i believe if the tenon is replace correctly, there should be no change in the hit of the cue.
and now for the no ferrule, lighter ferrule question. bout 2-3 years ago i noticed someone here building a no ferrule shaft, i thought it was something new, but as it seems, brunswick was doing it 100 years ago.
i tried it and now most of my shafts are built with no ferrule, with a promise, if you buy this cue and do not like the way it plays i will install a ferrule for free. i have never had a cue returned, so my customers must like the way it plays. i also believe it gives your cue hand a faster response at contact with the cue ball, might just be in my mind, but if its just in my mind and makes me play better thats all that matters.
i have just started making ferrules out of strand woved bamboo, dont remenber exact weights but it weights about half as much as a grice ferrule.
We don't need no stinkin' ferrules!
Chuck- I think you are on the right track. I never use ferrules unless the customer insists, and I'll put one on free if they want it in the future. I've done this for some time (a few years) and zero takers on the ferrule retro-fit. The hit quality and low deflection sells the job.
Any time you can omit a part and get equal or better performance, then that's what to do.
I have a number of shafts out that don't even have a pad. I let thin super glue soak into the end grain, lightly face it and stick on a tip. Works great. No failures so far, and outstanding performance.
Robin
Chuck- I think you are on the right track. I never use ferrules unless the customer insists, and I'll put one on free if they want it in the future. I've done this for some time (a few years) and zero takers on the ferrule retro-fit. The hit quality and low deflection sells the job.
Any time you can omit a part and get equal or better performance, then that's what to do.
I have a number of shafts out that don't even have a pad. I let thin super glue soak into the end grain, lightly face it and stick on a tip. Works great. No failures so far, and outstanding performance.
Robin
Last edited:
I have done a few hundred of these repairs and in my opinion it doesn't effect the playability of the shaft at all if it is done correctly. I normally bore a 5/16 hole 1 1/2 inches deep, make the new tenon and epoxy it in using West Systems which is over kill but in my opinion the new tenon is stronger that the original one.
Some people like to see the reflection of the white ferrule on the cueball to tell the true center of the cueball.
A couple people have mentioned they like the white reference point of the ferrule for aiming purposes. I think they'll get over it, but it crossed my mind that I could paint on a ferrule with epoxy plus white pigment, but the weight concerns me.
(Just kidding, guys. Calm down.)
I never really noticed it and it seemed "right" right from the start.
Now that I've made my contribution to hijacking the thread, I guess I should say that I replace tenons the same way as everyone else does, and I never noticed any change in hit.
Robin
joey
i have in the past agreed with 99% of your statments in different threads, and i bow to your knowledge but please explain
" Some people like to see the reflection of the white ferrule on the cueball to tell the true center of the cueball. "
i have tried to imagine how this works, let me see, i am down in shooting position, and have the tip of my cue pointing at the somewhat center of the ball, how do i get a reflection of the ferrule on the cue ball?
please what am i missing?
i have in the past agreed with 99% of your statments in different threads, and i bow to your knowledge but please explain
" Some people like to see the reflection of the white ferrule on the cueball to tell the true center of the cueball. "
i have tried to imagine how this works, let me see, i am down in shooting position, and have the tip of my cue pointing at the somewhat center of the ball, how do i get a reflection of the ferrule on the cue ball?
please what am i missing?