If (insert system, method, etc) was good...

T

tommyceilings

The Netherland Nihilator
Silver Member
I have a question not meant to take a jab at anyone or any system.

There are tons and tons of aiming methods, diamond systems, kicking systems, breaking systems, etc.

Each one you read says that you receive a clearer understanding of angles and pocketing balls and to quote a recent post from someone on here "the balls just go" when you understand how to aim.

No idea if thousands or 10's of thousands of people practice these systems, but my question is.

Why aren't there MANY MANY more great players.

If your flaw is that you can't pocket balls or can't aim properly but you are a shortstop, shouldn't these systems raise you to a high level? I'm not talking about immediately, but in a few years.
 
I don't think there's anyone at a shortstop level that can't aim. I think the systems can help a wide variety of players learn to aim or learn to aim better, or kick better, etc. As you practice those new skills, the "system" becomes part of you and you no longer have to spend as much conscious effort on it to achieve the same results.

While ball pocketing might increase somewhat in a good or very good player - it did in my case - there are many other factors in becoming a better than shortstop player - repetition, tons of playing/practice time, mental fortitude, etc. Just like golf, there are tons of guys that can swing the club well and have great fundamentals and knowledge and shoot close to scratch golf, but very few who make it to that next level, that just requires so much more time, talent, and mental toughness than most of us have.

Scott
 
tommyceilings said:
Why aren't there MANY MANY more great players.
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You can turn this around for anything. People drive cars every day, but it almost seems that for some, it is their first time behind a wheel. People fill fast food orders every day, but not all are correct. Some people just won't succeed at some things, no matter how much they want to. For some, it is time, others it is patience, the list goes on and on. How many free throws did Shaq attempt? He still sucked at them. Diff'rent strokes fer diff'rent folks. Being good at one thing does not mean you're good at everything, as much as some people think that crosses over into life.
 
Pool is a mix of knowledge, experience, and execution. Maybe some other intangibles too.

The system can help with knowledge (i.e. knowing where to aim to make that kick, or bank, or cut shot).

Systems cannot give you experience. They cannot give you execution. Those things require lots of time... time spent practicing, playing tournaments, playing sets, etc.

In fact, to reach a level that could be considered "great", you have to almost quit your day job just to find the time. Most people aren't willing to go that far, so they're stuck at "good" instead of moving up to "great".
 
tommyceilings said:
There are tons and tons of aiming methods, diamond systems, kicking systems, breaking systems, etc.

Each one you read says that you receive a clearer understanding of angles and pocketing balls and to quote a recent post from someone on here "the balls just go" when you understand how to aim.
Click to expand...

Don’t believe everything you read; there is a lot of bad/wrong information out there about everything.

tommyceilings said:
No idea if thousands or 10's of thousands of people practice these systems, but my question is.

Why aren't there MANY MANY more great players.

If your flaw is that you can't pocket balls or can't aim properly but you are a shortstop, shouldn't these systems raise you to a high level? I'm not talking about immediately, but in a few years.
Click to expand...

Great ____ are not made; they are born. I am sure I will get a lot of disagreement with that but it is IMHO a fact. And when you get into the world champ category even more factors play into it.
 
I got a kick out of Johnny Archer mentioning that there are MANY aiming systems out there "AND GOOD ONES".

An aiming system won't control your stroke and stroke is a critical part of the equation.

Some aiming systems like CTE/Pro1 are more than a geometric system for learning where to hit the object ball and help you with body alignment, body movement and visual perspectives. Develop a straight, smooth, confident, accelerating stroke, know where to hit the cue ball, learn the correct way to get shape on the next object ball, learn the game you are playing backwards and forward etc, and then you are on your way.

Even with all of that, you don't have to become a really top player.

Aiming systems help players who have trouble visualizing the perfect shot perspective. Aiming systems aren't the Holy Grail but if you want to improve your aiming technique it might not hurt to learn one. It could shorten your learning curve to Nirvana.
 
fundamentals and hard work

JoeyA said:
I got a kick out of Johnny Archer mentioning that there are MANY aiming systems out there "AND GOOD ONES".

An aiming system won't control your stroke and stroke is a critical part of the equation.

Some aiming systems like CTE/Pro1 are more than a geometric system for learning where to hit the object ball and help you with body alignment, body movement and visual perspectives. Develop a straight, smooth, confident, accelerating stroke, know where to hit the cue ball, learn the correct way to get shape on the next object ball, learn the game you are playing backwards and forward etc, and then you are on your way.

Even with all of that, you don't have to become a really top player.

Aiming systems help players who have trouble visualizing the perfect shot perspective. Aiming systems aren't the Holy Grail but if you want to improve your aiming technique it might not hurt to learn one. It could shorten your learning curve to Nirvana.
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Joey,

Everything in your post is accurate of course. However the part I highlighted is purest gold. Especially the part about an accelerating stroke. Now to throw the monkey poop in the fan for some people, the pure pendulum and the way many of the top instructors recommend using it results in a stroke that isn't accelerating at contact. A consistent followthrough is a must if your stroke isn't accelerating at contact, largely meaningless if it is. It doesn't really matter if you followthrough two inches or twenty if you are accelerating at contact.

As for why there aren't more great pool players a lot of it comes down to fundamentals and hard work. Some don't bother to learn how to play, most that understand how to play have other priorities and don't put in the time.

Hu
 
I think the primary issue is there's a ton more involved than simply "aiming". To an extent, you could compare pool to being a sniper. There is substantially more involved in hitting something 1,000 yards away than putting the crosshairs on the target (wind, humidity, drop, trigger pull, etc.).

Too many people who have a flaws in their stroke likely believe their biggest problem is aiming. You can have the perfect aiming system and it won't work if you don't hit the ball where you are aiming.

The other issue here is that every aiming system I've looked at still requires decent vision, the ability to perceive the aiming points and some amount of subjectivity. Then consider other the immense amount of other variables. Can anyone say they always have their head and eyes located in the exact same position? What if you're a little tired? Or your neck or back is stiff or hurts a little. The perception of the aiming line changes with variation in the x, y and z position of your head and eyes.

I also agree with PGHteacher, i.e., GREAT is mostly born, not made. I think most of the truly greats in any sport are Savants, they simply have abilities above and beyond that are necessary to achieve greatness in their given area of expertise. That may be incredible vision, great depth perception, exceptional hand to eye coordination, what have you.
 
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This isn't an aiming question per se, it's a question on why people who use various systems aren't really good players.

I know that lots of pro players will stamp their name on just about anything if it helps them stay afloat on the tours. There are a few pros who have endorsed so many contradictory products it's crazy.

You need the "insert rack name here" it's the best rack in the world.

One year later

Same design of rack, same materials, etc. this rack is the rack you have to get if you want to play like "insert famous player here"
 
ShootingArts said:
Joey,

Everything in your post is accurate of course. However the part I highlighted is purest gold. Especially the part about an accelerating stroke. Now to throw the monkey poop in the fan for some people, the pure pendulum and the way many of the top instructors recommend using it results in a stroke that isn't accelerating at contact. A consistent followthrough is a must if your stroke isn't accelerating at contact, largely meaningless if it is. It doesn't really matter if you followthrough two inches or twenty if you are accelerating at contact.

As for why there aren't more great pool players a lot of it comes down to fundamentals and hard work. Some don't bother to learn how to play, most that understand how to play have other priorities and don't put in the time.

Hu
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..........
 
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at the peak point?

Neil said:
Hu, the pendulum stroke results in a hit on the cb at the peak point of the stroke, not while it is slowing down.
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Neil,

According to some of the foremost advocates of the pendulum stroke it is not accelerating at contact. There are disadvantages from a biomechanical standpoint of the stroke no longer being accelerating. What is more, a little examination of the practitioners of the pendulum will show that the vast majority of players actually hit the cue ball with their fore arm foreward of 90 degrees. I'm not talking about just the people will a bent wrist and trailing grip who still have an effective 90 degree angle between the cue, grip, and elbow either. The pendulum is easy to teach, easy to troubleshoot but not without weaknesses, especially as actually practiced.

I don't think the difference in speed is significant from the standpoint of force delivered to the cue ball but the majority of pendulum users actually strike the cue ball when their fore arm is not only past the theoretically perfect 90 degrees to the cue, it is past 90 degrees to the floor also which would indicate that those relying on weight and gravity to work for them are indeed losing speed before impact. I am more concerned with what is happening with muscle and connecting tissue than I am with the tiny amount of force lost. Nobody's arm structure is perfectly balanced and it is least reliable when in a state of transition, exactly where it is at as the pendulum is taught and practiced. I strongly suspect that the overwhelming majority of pendulum users would hit the cue ball more accurately if they moved their grip back several inches and accelerated through the cue ball. While I know that technically isn't possible attempting to does keep the muscles contracting and out of the transition stage that can cause all kinds of issues in the structure of the arm and reduce accuracy.

Hu
 
Guys can we please keep this on topic.

Thanks for the replies, especially about how many shortstops there are now compared to 20 years ago.

Much appreciated.
 
Lateral Movement

tommyceilings said:
Guys can we please keep this on topic.

Thanks for the replies, especially about how many shortstops there are now compared to 20 years ago.

Much appreciated.
Click to expand...


OK, I'll give it a try. Other reasons that there aren't more great players now with all of the systems and improvements are twofold. Many of the improvements affect everyone pretty equally. Better equipment doesn't change the status quo, everyone tends to be a little better. Most wonderful new discoveries that seem to be great improvements at the moment tend to be lateral movements too. People find different ways to do things but while they focus more carefully on the new method and it seems far better to them at the moment they generally don't increase speed significantly. They still beat the same people they always did, the same people that beat them still do. Interestingly although they may jump in skill for a short time and move up the ladder temporarily they usually return to their same notch on the totem pole.

Most long term competitors at anything can't be moved significantly from their position in the field. Does improvement move them outside their comfort level? Maybe. Why this is true I don't really know but after much experience in formal competition I know it to be true. Take an "A" player that has been an "A" player for ten years, send them to the best instructors around and they may show a brief improvement. Odds are that two years later they will be an "A" player.

Sad but true it seems to be a version of the Peter Principle at work. In performance activities we reach the level of our maximum competence and not much can change that, particularly long term.

Hu
 
PGHteacher said:
Don’t believe everything you read; there is a lot of bad/wrong information out there about everything.



Great ____ are not made; they are born. I am sure I will get a lot of disagreement with that but it is IMHO a fact. And when you get into the world champ category even more factors play into it.
Click to expand...

I agree. I would guess 99% of all pool players will reach a certain level and can never get any better reguardless of how much they practice. The few with natural talent will become better players if they put the time in. Like I have said before, if you ask 10 top players how they aim they will tell you its judgement/feel from hitting so many balls. There is no quick fix!
 
Pocketing the object ball (the objective of an aiming system) is only half the battle, maybe less.

Pros are pros because they can control the CB after pocketing the ball. That takes a lot more skill than pocketing the ball.

There's also the "creative" aspect of being able to look at the remaining balls on the table and visualize the various ways of running the table.

There are hundreds of guys who can throw a football more accurately than a pro quarterback, but throwing the ball to an exact spot is the least of a quarterback's problems. Same for just about any endeavour -- sport or non-sport.
 
I have to agree with this also...
GOOD players can be made.
GREAT players are born.
WORLD CHAMPIONS are both.

PGHteacher said:
Don’t believe everything you read; there is a lot of bad/wrong information out there about everything.



Great ____ are not made; they are born. I am sure I will get a lot of disagreement with that but it is IMHO a fact. And when you get into the world champ category even more factors play into it.
Click to expand...
 
The games never really been about aiming.

I can teach anyone to 'aim' in their first 5 minutes of picking up a cue, in fact 'popular' aiming systems can be taught over the phone, but thats not what puts the ball in the hole.

To make things worse, consistantly putting the ball in the hole doesn't even make you a great player. :)

Aiming is like putting on your ice skates to go ice skating. Its just the bare minimum you need to do before you actually start to do anything.
 
tommyceilings said:
I have a question not meant to take a jab at anyone or any system.

There are tons and tons of aiming methods, diamond systems, kicking systems, breaking systems, etc.

Each one you read says that you receive a clearer understanding of angles and pocketing balls and to quote a recent post from someone on here "the balls just go" when you understand how to aim.

No idea if thousands or 10's of thousands of people practice these systems, but my question is.

Why aren't there MANY MANY more great players.

If your flaw is that you can't pocket balls or can't aim properly but you are a shortstop, shouldn't these systems raise you to a high level? I'm not talking about immediately, but in a few years.
Click to expand...

There are so many things you gotta do at an expert level, aiming is just one of them.
 
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