The Myth of the Great Shotmaker

[OneIron]

Friend of mine is such a good shot maker that he doesn't worry about precise position. He plays very aggressive and I have a hard time predicting what patterns he will use to run out.

But his play is excellent and he will win top shooter this session by a landslide. (At one point this session, his record was 33 wins, 1 loss).

 

[LAlouie]

A great "shotmaker" makes great shots. No matter how good his position play he will always encounter difficult shots. ergo, pocketing them makes him a great shotmaker.

 

[Ratta]

Everybody always talks about the "Great Shotmaker" that really can't play position very well but they sure can fire the balls in. I've even been guilty of this in the past. However, the more I play the more I believe that these supposed great shotmakers don't exist.

Don't get me wrong, there are great shotmakers in this game, it's just I can't think of and I certainly don't know any great shotmakers that aren't also great overall players.

Also, some beginning players will often times fire in balls that more experienced players wouldn't even attempt. I think many times this is just because the more experienced player has a better understanding of the percentages, not necessarily because he can't pocket the ball.

I've approached the shot making vs. position play conversation several different times on here and I'm really not looking to discuss that (but feel free to if you want). What I'm curious about is do you actually know someone that can really fire the balls in (better than you can) but doesn't have a clue how to move whitey around?

Well- if we use the discussion about *shotmakers* i would define it (for myself if i use this phrase) more clearly. If i say that someone is a great shotmaker- he is for sure. And then this person is able to runout several racks and also able to shoot from time to time really good high-runs in straight-pool.........but not consistantly.
These players/persons are taking not enough care for angles and patterns-and this makes the great difference between a good player and a fantastic player. At the moment i have 2-3 students that are really fantastic if it s about potting, but they often just use *strange and suspicious* routes, making the game harde rfor themselves. The last video i worked/watched was a run nearly/around 80. In this run he made 4 very hard breakshots- and overall about 10 really hard shots where he ran out of position. This way you re not able to make consistanly higher runs because you will just ran *out of gas* at some point. Here the phrase *Keep it simple* and *using right patterns* helps. but this needs a lot of knowledge and practice, too.
My pals are usualy really able to make any shot, and if i tell them to this or that- - they will make it for sure. But in upcoming situations under pressure, they re using again wrong routes, crossing angles and are not taking care because *they can make any ball*.
This is the point where you have to make changes, if you really wanna become a descent top player- or you will stagnate on this level for your whole life.

lg from overseas,

Ingo

 

[Bambu]

Maybe I missed the boat on this one. I have seen the type of players described by Mayoshi and Ratta, but would not consider them as having no clue about cue ball control.

 

[8ballEinstein]

A good move - not getting close position?

There is a certain style of play that some players use where they purposefully get a little tougher than most people prefer on many shots because those shots are still high percentage for them, but trying to get closer shape makes the shot slightly lower percentage. They are still controlling the cue ball well, but to players that aren't used to that style, it might look like they are just pocketing tough shot after tough shot.

A guy like this came into my local pool room. His cue ball would consistently be 4-5 feet from the object ball, even though he could've easily brought it to within 2 feet. To most observers, it looked like he couldn't control his whitey. They soon learned he was in fact a real good player. It made me wonder if he was just pulling a move here to throw off the sweaters or if this was his normal play.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

In my opinion the definition of a great shotmaker is hard to describe, but I think I know one when I see one.

Several years ago I had the pleasure of sitting ringside for a match in the US Open on the TV table. Rafael Martinez vs Earl Strickland.

I had never seen Rafael play, fearless is how I would describe it. A shotmaker in the purest form.

JMHO

 

[LAlouie]

Every great shotmaker has some degree of position play. If he knows how to pocket a ball in a variety of ways, he has an innate sense of what the cueball will do. He may not be as accurate with his position play as others, but he still has it.

I think however, these shotmakers are not good at planning their runs, and that's why they appear to be all over the place.

 

[Masayoshi]

A guy like this came into my local pool room. His cue ball would consistently be 4-5 feet from the object ball, even though he could've easily brought it to within 2 feet. To most observers, it looked like he couldn't control his whitey. They soon learned he was in fact a real good player. It made me wonder if he was just pulling a move here to throw off the sweaters or if this was his normal play.

The manager at my pool hall plays this style. I think players who normally play on fast, big pocket 9' tables tend to develop this style.

 

[Ratta]

Maybe I missed the boat on this one. I have seen the type of players described by Mayoshi and Ratta, but would not consider them as having no clue about cue ball control.

@Bambu

That was about nearly what i was trying to say. If i speak about (a really great) shotmaker, he knows for sure that the cueball will roll backwards by using a drawshot and so on. But "he" will makes his pool-life harder over a longer distance, because of not using natural angles, using better patterns etc. - he s kind wasting energy and focus by playing to many hard and difficult shots.

I agree also with Tony_in_MD with his description "fearless". That describes exactly one of my students. A hell of a shotmaker who s making consitantly 60-80 ball runs. But he has to make so many difficult shots and this way running out of gas too often. Just careless!

Better patterns would help help players also on different tables (cloths, rails etc. ). This knowledge to use better patterns helps you also to *keep it simple*

I remember a quote from my friend David when we were talking and discussing about *this phenomen*- in this discussion he also quoted Jimmy Moore.
The overall-sense was like this: (would call it a quote by Sapolis and Moore)
In the game of 14.1 Continuous, there is absolutely no room for carelessness. e taught me that carelessness is the end result of laziness. What I misread as nerves, fear, and an inability to perform under pressure - was actually the result of carelessness in my decisions which was brought about by my laziness.

Here the game 14.1 is the example-but it fits in my opinion for every discipline.

lg from overseas,

Ingo

 

[Bambu]

@Bambu

That was about nearly what i was trying to say. If i speak about (a really great) shotmaker, he knows for sure that the cueball will roll backwards by using a drawshot and so on. But "he" will makes his pool-life harder over a longer distance, because of not using natural angles, using better patterns etc. - he s kind wasting energy and focus by playing to many hard and difficult shots.

I agree also with Tony_in_MD with his description "fearless". That describes exactly one of my students. A hell of a shotmaker who s making consitantly 60-80 ball runs. But he has to make so many difficult shots and this way running out of gas too often. Just careless!

Better patterns would help help players also on different tables (cloths, rails etc. ). This knowledge to use better patterns helps you also to *keep it simple*

I remember a quote from my friend David when we were talking and discussing about *this phenomen*- in this discussion he also quoted Jimmy Moore.
The overall-sense was like this: (would call it a quote by Sapolis and Moore)
In the game of 14.1 Continuous, there is absolutely no room for carelessness. e taught me that carelessness is the end result of laziness. What I misread as nerves, fear, and an inability to perform under pressure - was actually the result of carelessness in my decisions which was brought about by my laziness.

Here the game 14.1 is the example-but it fits in my opinion for every discipline.

lg from overseas,

Ingo

I understand what youre saying Ratta, and I agree. I'm just not sure if thats what basement meant by his post. We dont play so much straight pool down here. So when I see a guy run 60's or 80's I consider him a skilled shooter. He may not read patterns like a pro yet, but he certainly knows what hes doing.

 

[FranCrimi]

I think in order for a great shotmaker to exist who can't play position, they would have to be practicing shot making in a bubble for years without even thinking about position play. (Unless somebody out there thinks that great shotmakers are made overnight.)

It doesn't make sense that such a player would exist.

 

[ShootingArts]

nice runs

I understand what youre saying Ratta, and I agree. I'm just not sure if thats what basement meant by his post. We dont play so much straight pool down here. So when I see a guy run 60's or 80's I consider him a skilled shooter. He may not read patterns like a pro yet, but he certainly knows what hes doing.

Sixties and eighties are nice runs, no question. I think what he was saying is that without getting out of shape and having to play tough shots they don't get as mentally tired and the run could be extended substantially longer. Too it is a simple matter of percentages. You can have some very long runs hitting 90%+ shots as Mr. Mosconi often proved. When you start adding in a fairly small percentage of 60-70% shots then your chances of a miss sharply increase. Willie on a roll rarely shot from more than two feet from the object ball. His runs looked so effortless that anybody should be able to do it, a major reason he was a great factory rep in my opinion.

Hu

 

[BasementDweller]

There is a certain style of play that some players use where they purposefully get a little tougher than most people prefer on many shots because those shots are still high percentage for them, but trying to get closer shape makes the shot slightly lower percentage. They are still controlling the cue ball well, but to players that aren't used to that style, it might look like they are just pocketing tough shot after tough shot.

Sorry for the late reply. I got a bit busy this weekend but there are several posts I wanted to comment on.

This style of play that you mentioned - I noticed this years ago while watching Jose Parica. He would leave himself much longer shots than I would ever be comfortable with. I think for him, having his body in a comfortable position (not stretched out) was more important than being closer to the object ball.

 

[PGHteacher]

When most people say this I think they mean relative to their CB control not relative to the best shot maker in the city. I have seen “great shot makers” RELATIVE to their CB control, or relative to their handicap; but relative to the best players? I would say no don’t think one exists. Those who have great shot making ability generally have a natural awareness of where to hit the ball to put it in the pocket (I am not one of these people) and those that don’t struggle for a very long time; if they do ever get a good game.

 

[Snapshot9]

Shotmakers

I have met and played shotmakers in the past and even in the present.
After 50 years of playing, I can pretty well tell you a lot about a player, like their speed, whether they learned Pool in a Pool room or bars, whether they are just an open table shooter and can't bank or kick, whether they can just bank 1 rail, whether they have been schooled by an instructor or mentor, and whether they play straight pool or 1 pocket. I can watch them for 5 or 10 minutes, and have down what kind of shooter they are.

Now, for shotmakers, they shoot long shots usually, low percentage shots but make them, and lots of time they just let the cue ball go where it goes. I shoot tournaments with a friend that is a good player, but I can tell he concentrated on making shots and nothing else for a long time, and then learned to play position. Sometimes he just shoots the shot (a 2 stroker) and turns the cue ball loose when he didn't need to.

One pure shooter I played years ago down at Burke's Steakhouse, and he is well known throughout the Midwest, Donnie Brown, giving him the 8, and I won $150 from him. About 10 minutes after we finished, he walks up to me, and ask me to teach him english and position. Now, there is a smart guy, he turns a negative into a positive. Although I can hold my own against almost anyone on a bar table, I have always felt like I was a better teacher than player. Donnie must have sensed it too. So over the next few months we kind of ran together, and I taught him some about position and english. He went on to become a very good player.

 

[Norrbacka]

I have a friend which I play a lot snooker with. Myself is more of a 14.1 player who likes to run balls, but we only play snooker cos, honestly, that's the only game he can beat me in.

And man, this guy NEVER have a clue where he is putting the whitey. But sometimes when he has a good day and the rolls are on his side, it does not matter, cos this guy can pot balls. Longshot, bankshot, etc. Shots most players make 1/10, he makes them nearly EVERY freaking time. But most of the time he just makes 2-3 ball at the time because of his lack of position play. And most of the time I will have a lead with about 30-40 points when there is 1-2 reds left and then he starts playing a lot of saves and I make 1-2 fouls and when only the colors are left, than he beats me every time. This due to all the long shots coming up when there are so few balls at the table.

Yet I still win maybe 6-7 / 10 times when we play snooker and probable 9.8/10 when we play ordinary pool games. But if we would have a competition on long shots, I would loose big times. He can't miss. I usually jokes and says he is better than Judd Trump at aiming long shots (which is possibly true).

I guess he has won some 9-ball games when we played. For example if I miss the seven he can play 3 shots out of position and still win because of his aim and execution.

And he has a pool table at home, he does practice quite often, so I don't really know why he has not gotten better at position. I honestly think he is not "smart" enough or does not understand the motion of a cueball. He also always makes the wrong decision on which ball to shot off. Sometimes he has an accelent shot on the blue in snooker, but because he do have a hard angle on the black, yet pottable, he chooses that one instead, because its worth 2 more points but 10 times harder to make. Still, he pots it every times nearly. But then is usually left with nothing to shoot at.

Wow, what a long post. I am really tired aswell. So alot of english grammar mistakes, but heck, I think I made myself understood.

 

[BasementDweller]

...Yet I still win maybe 6-7 / 10 times when we play snooker and probable 9.8/10 when we play ordinary pool games. But if we would have a competition on long shots, I would loose big times. He can't miss. I usually jokes and says he is better than Judd Trump at aiming long shots (which is possibly true)....

Nice post but that part in red is sort of what I'm talking about here. Do you REALLY think your friend is even in the same ball park when it comes to potting balls as Judd Trump? I would be shocked if he was even close.

 

[BasementDweller]

Well- if we use the discussion about *shotmakers* i would define it (for myself if i use this phrase) more clearly. If i say that someone is a great shotmaker- he is for sure. And then this person is able to runout several racks and also able to shoot from time to time really good high-runs in straight-pool.........but not consistantly.
These players/persons are taking not enough care for angles and patterns-and this makes the great difference between a good player and a fantastic player. At the moment i have 2-3 students that are really fantastic if it s about potting, but they often just use *strange and suspicious* routes, making the game harde rfor themselves. The last video i worked/watched was a run nearly/around 80. In this run he made 4 very hard breakshots- and overall about 10 really hard shots where he ran out of position. This way you re not able to make consistanly higher runs because you will just ran *out of gas* at some point. Here the phrase *Keep it simple* and *using right patterns* helps. but this needs a lot of knowledge and practice, too.
My pals are usualy really able to make any shot, and if i tell them to this or that- - they will make it for sure. But in upcoming situations under pressure, they re using again wrong routes, crossing angles and are not taking care because *they can make any ball*.
This is the point where you have to make changes, if you really wanna become a descent top player- or you will stagnate on this level for your whole life.

lg from overseas,

Ingo

Ratta,

I think you're spot on about the shotmakers that play 14.1. I wasn't really thinking about 14.1 in my OP but in that game I can see how the shotmakers can get themselves into trouble.

I always keep my eyes open for one of your posts. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[BasementDweller]

I think in order for a great shotmaker to exist who can't play position, they would have to be practicing shot making in a bubble for years without even thinking about position play. (Unless somebody out there thinks that great shotmakers are made overnight.)

It doesn't make sense that such a player would exist.

I agree but I still hear guys talking bad about the "great shotmaker" that can't play position.

Do you think there are shortstop level players that can actually pocket balls (if we were to put them through a drill) as good as say - the top 50 pros?

 

[Aaron_S]

Definitely not a myth...

I see it on bar tables a lot. There are hundreds of players out there who can go hours or even days without missing a ball they shoot at on a barbox. Many times, their position strategy is a mix of pot luck and "just let me see a piece of it", but on that small surface it's a combination that can be very difficult to overcome, even for pro quality players. They can get on the wrong side of every ball and just accept the thin cut, bank, or pound the cueball around the table with massive spin. The end result is someone who is very strong at pocketing balls, but not so much in other areas. The first time they play on an "Ernestomized" gold crown or something similar, they will get the "God, I look like a C player on this equipment!" rude awakening and they will either vow to get their cueball under control or to never play on a big, tight table again. :smile:

Aaron