An aiming system ( pro-one ) will help you play at that same level more quickly after a lay-off.
Is a Straight Stroke All That Important?
- Thread starter lfigueroa
- Start date
An aiming system ( pro-one ) will help you play at that same level more quickly after a lay-off.
Not really the main point, I think
Your point about changing the center of the cue ball in relation to the shot is very valid, applies to the difference between backhand and parallel english. You can't hit as far out with backhand english but because the center of the cue ball in relation to the shot has changed, or as I usually put it the line of force has changed relative to the center of the cue ball, you get nearly identical maximum results with either english style. One day we may try to determine which is a hair better if either is, seems one should be but I'm not running that rabbit today!
The last instant quick swoop we have branched into has another factor in play. With increased contact time if we accept that there is some slippage between a tip and cue ball during some portion of the contact then longer contact would increase the amount of force(spin) transfered. There isn't a static line of attack that can give the same result, the amount of spin off a rail, without also much more forward speed.
Ultimately this doesn't really matter, just a long ago discovery that does indicate that increased contact time, at least with a soft tip, increases transfered spin.
Enjoying the conversation with you and PJ but a phone call just changed my world, got to go work awhile. I'll check in late tonight or tomorrow but I have to cut this short at the moment.
Apologies to both of you, I hate stopping when we are almost in real time.
Hu
Your point about changing the center of the cue ball in relation to the shot is very valid, applies to the difference between backhand and parallel english. You can't hit as far out with backhand english but because the center of the cue ball in relation to the shot has changed, or as I usually put it the line of force has changed relative to the center of the cue ball, you get nearly identical maximum results with either english style. One day we may try to determine which is a hair better if either is, seems one should be but I'm not running that rabbit today!
The last instant quick swoop we have branched into has another factor in play. With increased contact time if we accept that there is some slippage between a tip and cue ball during some portion of the contact then longer contact would increase the amount of force(spin) transfered. There isn't a static line of attack that can give the same result, the amount of spin off a rail, without also much more forward speed.
Ultimately this doesn't really matter, just a long ago discovery that does indicate that increased contact time, at least with a soft tip, increases transfered spin.
Enjoying the conversation with you and PJ but a phone call just changed my world, got to go work awhile. I'll check in late tonight or tomorrow but I have to cut this short at the moment.
Apologies to both of you, I hate stopping when we are almost in real time.
Hu
I used to think so too, but I've since realized there is no difference other than method of application. See this previous post about it.
That previous post shows that the "effective CB center" doesn't change if the CB's path doesn't change (i.e., when you change the angle of attack on the CB to compensate for squirt).
What that previous post doesn't show, but is a related point, is that backhand english and "parallel" english are identical at the moment the tip hits the CB (i.e., with both techniques the tip hits the CB at the same spot and from the same angle). This is why I dislike the term "parallel english": it misleads about what really happens.
No prob - I gotta make a little bacon too...
pj
chgo
PJ, How about if you start with on the left side of CB when applying backhand english to the right, would you still be hitting in the same spot ? and would that have an effect on how much spin you get ?
I kind of new at this game, only played it 50 yrs or so now. Maybe you would be kind enough to explain to me what the heck this thing you call backhand english is. I only know of follow, draw, right, left and center english and how you can mix them by going around the clock. Then change them up a little more depending on lenght of follow through and stroke speed. Backhand english ?????????
Dale
If you mean "start with your tip touching the left side of the CB and apply sidespin in a swiping motion so that the tip ends up on the right side", that's not possible. The tip won't be in contact with the CB long enough to traverse from the left side to the right side.
If you mean "start with your tip left of center but not touching the CB and arc your stroke so it contacts the right hand side of the CB to apply rightside english", then the resulting spin is the same as starting out with your stick pointed at the right side of the CB and simply stroking straight at that angle.
The general principle is that, since the tip is in contact with the CB for only 1/1000th of a second, no matter how you change your stroke it's all the same to the CB: just direction and speed at the moment of contact.
pj
chgo
It is extraordinary to those of us not from that background. And disturbing...
It is in the American nature to create long-standing feuds:
East vs West
North vs South
White vs Black
Slave vs Free
But the longest are personal:
The Hatfields and McCoys had its roots in the murder of a McCoy Union soldier in 1865.
In 1878 a Hatfield was acquitted of stealing a McCoy hog.
A dozen died before it ended in 1890.
Another one, Bakers vs Whites, lasted 95 years, from 1806 to1901. The body count is up for debate, but between 100 and 150.
Between 1884 and 1887, the Martin vs Tollivers stacked up 20 corpses and 16 wounded.
The Irish have been killing each other for centuries, resolving little.
In my own peaceable country, a family known as the Black Donnellys feuded with the surrounding community for 33 years.
One fateful night their homestead was burned to the ground, taking many members of the family with it. While no one was ever convicted in their murders, it is widely believed that there may have been a conspiracy of silence adhered to by the town members. To this day, it is said that the residents refuse to talk about the Black Donnellys and all reference to the families has been removed from the library and town records. In fact, the gravestone for the family was replaced in 1964 to remove the word "murdered."
So, you see, the intellectually uplifting discussions on these boards is a highly civilized response to different points of view.
For Americans.
As you probably already know, whenever you use sidespin the cue ball "squirts" a little offline in the opposite direction, so you have to change your aim slightly to compensate. Luckily, for each shaft there's a certain distance from the tip (usually between about 10-20 inches) where you can pivot the cue to apply any amount of sidespin and automatically get the right amount of aim compensation for the squirt. "Backhand english" makes use of this helpful fact by always pivoting the cue at this "pivot point" to apply sidespin, eliminating (or at least reducing) the guesswork in compensating for squirt.
Many players have simply learned to make this aim compensation by feel - many of them don't even know it's happening.
pj
chgo
It is in the American nature to create long-standing feuds:
[...]
But the longest are personal:
[...]
The Irish have been killing each other for centuries, resolving little.
In my own peaceable country, a family known as the Black Donnellys feuded with the surrounding community for 33 years.
One fateful night their homestead was burned to the ground, taking many members of the family with it. While no one was ever convicted in their murders, it is widely believed that there may have been a conspiracy of silence adhered to by the town members. To this day, it is said that the residents refuse to talk about the Black Donnellys and all reference to the families has been removed from the library and town records. In fact, the gravestone for the family was replaced in 1964 to remove the word "murdered."
So, you see, the intellectually uplifting discussions on these boards is a highly civilized response to different points of view.
For Americans.
Scaramouche:
Interesting that you offered-up two cases/scenarios that have nothing to do with Americans, as "evidence" of Americans' penchant for long-standing feuds.
Correct me if I'm wrong, or not catching upon a certain fact you're trying to get across, but the Irish "fighting each other" is a misclassification. We're talking about Northern Ireland, right? Although many classify this as a religious war (Roman Catholics vs. Protestants), it was actually a fight against colonialism, in what's known as "The Troubles." As we know, the Brits have a history of causing revolution in other countries, all in the name of "your country is mine, mine, mine."
So in reality, the Brits have a penchant for causing long-standing feuds as well -- and the death toll for those feuds greatly outnumber any by our mutual countries (USA and Canada) combined, by millions, over the course of millennia, to boot.
TheBannedOne's notion of, "It is extraordinary to those of us not from that background. And disturbing..." is extremely hilarious, when you think about it. Talk about irony on a grand scale!
-Sean
But you could hit closer to center CB to get the same amount of spin this way, right ?
It seems that way, but... nope.
Swiping the tip across the line of aim is the same as angling the cue first and stroking straight.
There's info about this on Dr. Dave's website (some of it from me), and I've posted a link a coupla times today in this thread to another recent post of mine with a drawing that might help. It's a slippery subject to get a grip on - took me literally years to understand it piece by piece from tidbits of info posted by Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, Mike Page, Ron Shepard, etc.
pj
chgo
Pool players ESPECIALLY Gamblers..apply percentages to every part of pool "whats my make percentage on this shot vs that safety"... .. "I need a handicap to get my chance of beating this guy to at least 50/50 or a little in my favor"
but practice and mechanics are somehow exempt from this type of thinking.. "I don't need practice... I need the 7 ball" or "why do I shoot sidearm and jerky? wellll uhhhhh... because I always have"
you might be able to ride a galloping horse past the table and strike the Cue Ball Jousting style.. but I'm guessing that would be a pretty low percentage technique..
stroking straight is the highest percentage method for hitting the CB accurately..
and anyone who says otherwise is being intentionally obtuse
but practice and mechanics are somehow exempt from this type of thinking.. "I don't need practice... I need the 7 ball" or "why do I shoot sidearm and jerky? wellll uhhhhh... because I always have"
you might be able to ride a galloping horse past the table and strike the Cue Ball Jousting style.. but I'm guessing that would be a pretty low percentage technique..
stroking straight is the highest percentage method for hitting the CB accurately..
and anyone who says otherwise is being intentionally obtuse
Let me see if I got this right. On the forward stroke when your cue tip makes contact with the CB, you wave the cue tip right or left by waving your grip hand the oposite right or left using your bridge hand as the pivot point to apply english to correct for the squirt you would get if you didn't wave your cue back and forth like a flag. WOW ?????????
Dale
No. What you do is step into the shot on your normal shot-line, line the shot up, aim the ball as if you were not going to use english, then move your grip hand to the right (for left-hand english), thus "pivoting" at the bridge for the application of the english. Then, simply stroke the cueball in a normal forward projection of the cue (not a "swiping" motion). This is different than "parallel english" which moves both the bridge hand and the grip hand to the left of center on the cueball (again, for left-hand english).
Does this make more sense???
Maniac
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Backhand english is usually applied by pivoting the cue before stroking, and then stroking straight at the new angle. The new angle is the same aim adjustment you'd make "by feel" for the same sidespin shot, just applied "mechanically" using BHE.
The "swiping" method some are discussing here is not the typical method of applying backhand english, it just results in the same thing if you're lucky enough to hit the same sidespin spot on the CB. It isn't recommended.
pj
chgo
Yup, I'd have to agree. Maybe there's something about bank pool, because they have a tendency to shoot more shots at speed, that engenders a straighter stroke. I'm thinking of another player -- Buddy hall -- who has, IMO, a super straight stroke.
Lou Figueroa
Right, right. Stationary pivot point at the elbow. Anything else would be detrimental.
Lou Figueroa
who knew
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