Question about APA rule and also a funny rule you might not know of.

[TheNewSharkster]

kmrunout, what is so hard to understand that you can only jump with a regular playing cue? Fricken let it go. This is such a simple concept yet it has turned into questions regarding hollowing out the butt of a playing cue and sticking a hard tip on a "regular" cue. Absolutely ridiculous.

REGULAR SHOOTING CUE: Any standard pool cue designed to shoot the
majority of shots in a game of pool.

 

[abie10]

This might be a local rule, but here in Phoenix APA you are allowed to switch to your break cue, but you must use the same cue for the duration of your turn at the table.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

kmrunout, what is so hard to understand that you can only jump with a regular playing cue? Fricken let it go. This is such a simple concept yet it has turned into questions regarding hollowing out the butt of a playing cue and sticking a hard tip on a "regular" cue. Absolutely ridiculous.

REGULAR SHOOTING CUE: Any standard pool cue designed to shoot the
majority of shots in a game of pool.

Sharkster, clearly you do not see anything that needs understanding. That's fine. You can opt out of the thread any time you like. You may notice that other posters also have some of the same questions. Whether you are capable of identifying it or not, there is ambiguity in the rules. I don't care what the APA wants the rules to be, they can decide on whatever suits them and it is fine with me. I am simply advocating that they improve the wording. It really is very simple, yet you still aren't seeing that. Try reading some of the other posts...

Since you see things as being so simple, why don't you answer this question: Say I win one of the Action cues the APA in my area has been raffling off. It is a pretty basic cue with an 8 ball on the butt, says APA on it. Actually these are quite nice cues for the very cheap price. Anyway, I decide I'll use it as my break cue. At first I use it just the way it comes, with some kind of layered leather tip. A jump shot opportunity comes up in my match. I don't want to use my Andy Gilbert cue that I shoot all my shots with for *whatever* reason. Instead I want to use the cheap Action cue. CAN I USE IT TO JUMP? Three weeks go by and I hear of this thing called a "phenolic tip". Some guy suggests I put one on my new break cue for better breaks. I give it a shot. Again a jump shot situation comes up. I want to use my cheap Action cue, but lucky for me it now has a phenolic tip on it. CAN I USE IT TO JUMP?

That's two slightly different situations (though actually identical under the APA rules--the cue is the same cue...it is, was, and always will be designed to shoot the majority of shots etc.). Since this situation is so simple and obvious, you should have absolutely no trouble answering for these two scenarios. I await your reply

KMRUNOUT

 

[droveto]

Sharkster, clearly you do not see anything that needs understanding. That's fine. You can opt out of the thread any time you like. You may notice that other posters also have some of the same questions. Whether you are capable of identifying it or not, there is ambiguity in the rules. I don't care what the APA wants the rules to be, they can decide on whatever suits them and it is fine with me. I am simply advocating that they improve the wording. It really is very simple, yet you still aren't seeing that. Try reading some of the other posts...

Since you see things as being so simple, why don't you answer this question: Say I win one of the Action cues the APA in my area has been raffling off. It is a pretty basic cue with an 8 ball on the butt, says APA on it. Actually these are quite nice cues for the very cheap price. Anyway, I decide I'll use it as my break cue. At first I use it just the way it comes, with some kind of layered leather tip. A jump shot opportunity comes up in my match. I don't want to use my Andy Gilbert cue that I shoot all my shots with for *whatever* reason. Instead I want to use the cheap Action cue. CAN I USE IT TO JUMP? Three weeks go by and I hear of this thing called a "phenolic tip". Some guy suggests I put one on my new break cue for better breaks. I give it a shot. Again a jump shot situation comes up. I want to use my cheap Action cue, but lucky for me it now has a phenolic tip on it. CAN I USE IT TO JUMP?

That's two slightly different situations (though actually identical under the APA rules--the cue is the same cue...it is, was, and always will be designed to shoot the majority of shots etc.). Since this situation is so simple and obvious, you should have absolutely no trouble answering for these two scenarios. I await your reply

KMRUNOUT

I think it's valid for someone to continue on in the thread if their attitude is something along the lines of "you know what they mean by the rules, stop nit picking and play and/or coach in the spirit of the intended rules."

As I expressed earlier, no set of words can adequately cover the infinite variables encountered in a pool match. It's up to adults to interpret the intention, which is rather clear in this case in my mind, and to keep with that. I think this can fairly be said over and over again to people who are using equal energy and effort to just say the opposite.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Sharkster, clearly you do not see anything that needs understanding. That's fine. You can opt out of the thread any time you like. You may notice that other posters also have some of the same questions. Whether you are capable of identifying it or not, there is ambiguity in the rules. I don't care what the APA wants the rules to be, they can decide on whatever suits them and it is fine with me. I am simply advocating that they improve the wording. It really is very simple, yet you still aren't seeing that. Try reading some of the other posts...

Since you see things as being so simple, why don't you answer this question: Say I win one of the Action cues the APA in my area has been raffling off. It is a pretty basic cue with an 8 ball on the butt, says APA on it. Actually these are quite nice cues for the very cheap price. Anyway, I decide I'll use it as my break cue. At first I use it just the way it comes, with some kind of layered leather tip. A jump shot opportunity comes up in my match. I don't want to use my Andy Gilbert cue that I shoot all my shots with for *whatever* reason. Instead I want to use the cheap Action cue. CAN I USE IT TO JUMP? Three weeks go by and I hear of this thing called a "phenolic tip". Some guy suggests I put one on my new break cue for better breaks. I give it a shot. Again a jump shot situation comes up. I want to use my cheap Action cue, but lucky for me it now has a phenolic tip on it. CAN I USE IT TO JUMP?

That's two slightly different situations (though actually identical under the APA rules--the cue is the same cue...it is, was, and always will be designed to shoot the majority of shots etc.). Since this situation is so simple and obvious, you should have absolutely no trouble answering for these two scenarios. I await your reply

KMRUNOUT

You can answer the question just as easily as I. Do you shoot the majority of your shots with a cue with a phenolic tip? If the answer is yes than you are well within the rules to use it. If you break with that cue and leave it leaning against a claw until a jump shot presents itself than the answer is no.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

You can answer the question just as easily as I. Do you shoot the majority of your shots with a cue with a phenolic tip? If the answer is yes than you are well within the rules to use it. If you break with that cue and leave it leaning against a claw until a jump shot presents itself than the answer is no.

As simple as this was, and you couldn't do it!

There were two scenarios. Remember in the first one the cue has the layered leather tip it came with? In that scenario, the cue is used for breaking, and otherwise sits in the cue claw until jump time.

No offense, but if you can't read a simple question and provide a yes/no answer to that question, I have to assume that you are either avoiding the question or just didn't understand it or recognize it.

Can I help clarify somehow?

Also, please remember that it was the OLD APA rules that required that you shoot the majority of your shots with a cue for it to be your "regular shooting cue". The new rules only specify the *DESIGN* of the cue, not the frequency of its use.

Hope this helps,

KMRUNOUT

 

[droveto]

And the more people nitpick, the more the rules change every year and the more confusion we create... The rules will never be perfect in any game...

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I think it's valid for someone to continue on in the thread if their attitude is something along the lines of "you know what they mean by the rules, stop nit picking and play and/or coach in the spirit of the intended rules."

As I expressed earlier, no set of words can adequately cover the infinite variables encountered in a pool match. It's up to adults to interpret the intention, which is rather clear in this case in my mind, and to keep with that. I think this can fairly be said over and over again to people who are using equal energy and effort to just say the opposite.

droveto,

I am happy to have anyone continue in this thread. Numerous posters continue to have questions and feedback. I am happy to continue discussing the topic with those posters. Sharkster asked me to "let it go". I really think that is a mean thing to say in a *discussion* forum. Participation in a thread is optional for everyone. Sharkster seems very satisfied with his view on the situation, which is fine. However several other posters are still discussing it.

Droveto, what do you think about the two scenarios I posted previously? If you made the rules, or were a ref, what would your decision be? (I am referring to the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of post # 63)

Thanks again,

KMRUNOUT

 

[Banks]

droveto,

I am happy to have anyone continue in this thread. Numerous posters continue to have questions and feedback. I am happy to continue discussing the topic with those posters. Sharkster asked me to "let it go". I really think that is a mean thing to say in a *discussion* forum. Participation in a thread is optional for everyone. Sharkster seems very satisfied with his view on the situation, which is fine. However several other posters are still discussing it.

Droveto, what do you think about the two scenarios I posted previously? If you made the rules, or were a ref, what would your decision be? (I am referring to the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of post # 63)

Thanks again,

KMRUNOUT

After 7 1/2 years of playing APA, you're the only one that I've seen that doesn't seem to be able to 'let it go'. I've seen everything from 1s that miss a ball hanging in the pocket, to high masters/shortstops.. they seem to have gotten over it just fine. You also know how rarely these even come up, so why do you keep trying to push it? Are you 'that guy'?

 

[justadub]

droveto,

I am happy to have anyone continue in this thread. Numerous posters continue to have questions and feedback. I am happy to continue discussing the topic with those posters. Sharkster asked me to "let it go". I really think that is a mean thing to say in a *discussion* forum. Participation in a thread is optional for everyone. Sharkster seems very satisfied with his view on the situation, which is fine. However several other posters are still discussing it.

Droveto, what do you think about the two scenarios I posted previously? If you made the rules, or were a ref, what would your decision be? (I am referring to the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of post # 63)

Thanks again,

KMRUNOUT

Since the other guys haven't answered you, my opinion is that its ok to switch to the break cue when it has the leather tip on it, because the cue isnt designed specifically for breaking (or jumping), its just a different cue. When the tip is changed to phenolic, now the cue is designed for a use other than regular play, so it would not be an ok switch. Even though it is the same cue.

The issue with that, as I stated earlier, is that people who are pretty knowledgeable about the game sometimes have difficulty telling the difference between tips, so how do you administer such a ruling in the APA? To do it properly, you would need everyone to have their equipment inspected before matches begin, and designations declared for each cue. How do you think that would go?

 

[TheNewSharkster]

As simple as this was, and you couldn't do it!

There were two scenarios. Remember in the first one the cue has the layered leather tip it came with? In that scenario, the cue is used for breaking, and otherwise sits in the cue claw until jump time.

No offense, but if you can't read a simple question and provide a yes/no answer to that question, I have to assume that you are either avoiding the question or just didn't understand it or recognize it.

Can I help clarify somehow?

Also, please remember that it was the OLD APA rules that required that you shoot the majority of your shots with a cue for it to be your "regular shooting cue". The new rules only specify the *DESIGN* of the cue, not the frequency of its use.

Hope this helps,

KMRUNOUT

Dude just don't use a break/jump cue to jump a ball. That is it. Yeah, if you core out a cue, stuff it with concrete and sprinkle fairy dust on it you can probably get around the rule but only a serious douche bag would try something like that.

Think of it this way. If you use a cue to play a regular game that is the cue you should be using to jump the ball. Changing cues for a jump shot implies it is not a regular shooting cue. Keep it simple. Use your "regular" cue to shoot the jump shot. How much more clearly does this need to be said?

I am sure glad I do not play in the same league as you. Sounds like a bunch of nits.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

And the more people nitpick, the more the rules change every year and the more confusion we create... The rules will never be perfect in any game...

Do you believe the solution is to stop bothering to try? Should we write them one time and never attempt to make any improvements?

I will never be a perfect pool player. That is for certain. Should I just give up trying to get better?

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Dude just don't use a break/jump cue to jump a ball. That is it. Yeah, if you core out a cue, stuff it with concrete and sprinkle fairy dust on it you can probably get around the rule but only a serious douche bag would try something like that.

I don't know where you're getting the coring out stuff...I wouldn't have even thought about what you just said here.

Think of it this way. If you use a cue to play a regular game that is the cue you should be using to jump the ball. Changing cues for a jump shot implies it is not a regular shooting cue. Keep it simple. Use your "regular" cue to shoot the jump shot. How much more clearly does this need to be said?

My whole point is that it needs to be said more clearly than it has been in the APA manual. This is obvious, because you JUST got it wrong in your example. Even APA Operator said it is fine to switch cues to do a jump shot, as long as you switch to a regular shooting cue, NOT a jump cue or break cue. SO in this case you are saying one thing, and the APA is saying something else. I'd say there is some ambiguity FOR YOU at very least.

I am sure glad I do not play in the same league as you. Sounds like a bunch of nits.

I think you are confusing having a discussion on a forum about the specifics of the rules with playing in the league. These topics actually have almost NEVER come up in regular play. I am a division rep in my area and it is my job to settle disputes and interpret the rules. Only once, ever, have I fielded a question about this topic. Someone said they had bought a jump cue at the APA booth one time, and thought for sure they could use it to do a jump shot in their match. I told them they could not. Really easy. Also, one time in Vegas I was playing in a mini, and wanted to do a jump shot. A ref happened to be standing right next to me, so I asked if I could use my break cue. He said yes. I did the shot. No one cared. However, people that get upset in friendly discussions and start name calling and crying....I would agree that those people would not do well in our league here.

Best to you,

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

After 7 1/2 years of playing APA, you're the only one that I've seen that doesn't seem to be able to 'let it go'. I've seen everything from 1s that miss a ball hanging in the pocket, to high masters/shortstops.. they seem to have gotten over it just fine. You also know how rarely these even come up, so why do you keep trying to push it? Are you 'that guy'?

I wish I could help you help me see what it is I'm trying to "push"? I have an opinion. I expressed it. Someone questioned it. I responded. I just don't see the problem. My only investment in this issue is right here in this thread. I walk away from my computer and don't give it a second thought. I don't even really care about the issue much. I simply enjoy discussion. Would you like me to say someone is right when they are not? Or that they make a compelling logical argument when they don't? I can do that if it will make you feel better. Just give me a name of the posters whose posts you like, and I'll post that they are right about everything. Would that work for you?

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Since the other guys haven't answered you, my opinion is that its ok to switch to the break cue when it has the leather tip on it, because the cue isnt designed specifically for breaking (or jumping), its just a different cue. When the tip is changed to phenolic, now the cue is designed for a use other than regular play, so it would not be an ok switch. Even though it is the same cue.

The issue with that, as I stated earlier, is that people who are pretty knowledgeable about the game sometimes have difficulty telling the difference between tips, so how do you administer such a ruling in the APA? To do it properly, you would need everyone to have their equipment inspected before matches begin, and designations declared for each cue. How do you think that would go?

justadub,

Thanks for actually having a conversation here. This sounds like the most intelligent post so far in this thread. I agree with you completely. I can't see any way that your suggestion violates the rules in letter or in spirit. Glad to hear there are adults out there that still know how to express their opinions without getting angry or defensive. Was starting to feel a bit lonely here

Yeah, I also agree that it would simply not be practical to have an equipment inspection. Seems like we are getting close to a solution that covers all the bases...

KMRUNOUT

 

[Banks]

I wish I could help you help me see what it is I'm trying to "push"? I have an opinion. I expressed it. Someone questioned it. I responded. I just don't see the problem. My only investment in this issue is right here in this thread. I walk away from my computer and don't give it a second thought. I don't even really care about the issue much. I simply enjoy discussion. Would you like me to say someone is right when they are not? Or that they make a compelling logical argument when they don't? I can do that if it will make you feel better. Just give me a name of the posters whose posts you like, and I'll post that they are right about everything. Would that work for you?

KMRUNOUT

The way in which the discussion is going is, as was stated before, more like splitting hairs. The rule has been written and rewritten again because of people trying to manipulate the wordage. Unless the APA wants to release a 'legalese' type of manual a thousand pages long, it must be understood that these are the rules and only a few are going to be looking to find a way around it as people do with nearly any other written law/rule/etc. You're welcome to disagree with myself or anyone else as much as you'd like, but picking over and over at the wordage of an amature league's rule, especially when you admit that it is an extreme rarity that it is even questioned, is questionable in itself(as evidenced by the replies).

Could the ruling properly cover everything to exclude all sticks for which jumping is a part of their purpose? Sure. Could they do it within a reasonably short explanation while including all such sticks? Most likely not.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I don't know where you're getting the coring out stuff...I wouldn't have even thought about what you just said here.



My whole point is that it needs to be said more clearly than it has been in the APA manual. This is obvious, because you JUST got it wrong in your example. Even APA Operator said it is fine to switch cues to do a jump shot, as long as you switch to a regular shooting cue, NOT a jump cue or break cue. SO in this case you are saying one thing, and the APA is saying something else. I'd say there is some ambiguity FOR YOU at very least.

#1 You missed my point. I was trying to say that if somebody really wanted they could make a "regular" cue into a jumping machine and get around the the rules that APA has defined.

#2 It is clear as day. It is people who choose not to see the rules that are the problem. This is exactly what APA says. See the part in bold-

Massé and jump shots are legal, when executed properly (see MASSÉ
SHOTS and JUMP SHOTS described in Definitions), but such shots
must be attempted using a regular shooting cue (see REGULAR
SHOOTING CUE described in Definitions). Players are not allowed to
break down their cues or switch to specialty cues (such as cues designed
for jumping and/or breaking) to attempt massé or jump shots.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

#1 You missed my point. I was trying to say that if somebody really wanted they could make a "regular" cue into a jumping machine and get around the the rules that APA has defined.

Actually I understood completely. You are right, someone could do those things. I just don't know what that has to do with me or the questions I had asked you previously. I personally would not do those things. I just don't care. But you sure said a mouthful. If the rules are so simple to get around, perhaps they should be reworded?

#2 It is clear as day. It is people who choose not to see the rules that are the problem. This is exactly what APA says. See the part in bold-

Massé and jump shots are legal, when executed properly (see MASSÉ
SHOTS and JUMP SHOTS described in Definitions), but such shots
must be attempted using a regular shooting cue (see REGULAR
SHOOTING CUE described in Definitions). Players are not allowed to
break down their cues or switch to specialty cues (such as cues designed
for jumping and/or breaking) to attempt massé or jump shots.

Yep, that's exactly what the rules say. In your previous post, however, you claim that you cannot change cues to do a jump shot. The rules as stated do not prevent that at all. Not even a little bit. As long as the cue you change to is a "regular shooting cue".

Do you remember saying "Changing cues for a jump shot implies it is not a regular shooting cue."

Do you remember APA Operators post # 22? Check it out:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3631824&postcount=22

Only one of you is right. Which one is it?

 

[droveto]

droveto,

I am happy to have anyone continue in this thread. Numerous posters continue to have questions and feedback. I am happy to continue discussing the topic with those posters. Sharkster asked me to "let it go". I really think that is a mean thing to say in a *discussion* forum. Participation in a thread is optional for everyone. Sharkster seems very satisfied with his view on the situation, which is fine. However several other posters are still discussing it.

Droveto, what do you think about the two scenarios I posted previously? If you made the rules, or were a ref, what would your decision be? (I am referring to the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of post # 63)

Thanks again,

KMRUNOUT

Ah, I didn't notice him saying "let it go." To some hilarious degree, you two should be able (and I guess myself included) to go on forever discussing whether the English language has sufficient words to cover these scenarios or not. I personally am in the camp that I don't think so.

I'll have to go back and review your scenario... I haven't really gone too deeply into it.

What was interesting was that when you suggested your own version of how the wording should be, we easily found loopholes to those suggestions too... It isn't every going to be adequate to everyone...

 

[droveto]

Since you see things as being so simple, why don't you answer this question: Say I win one of the Action cues the APA in my area has been raffling off. It is a pretty basic cue with an 8 ball on the butt, says APA on it. Actually these are quite nice cues for the very cheap price. Anyway, I decide I'll use it as my break cue. At first I use it just the way it comes, with some kind of layered leather tip. A jump shot opportunity comes up in my match. I don't want to use my Andy Gilbert cue that I shoot all my shots with for *whatever* reason. Instead I want to use the cheap Action cue. CAN I USE IT TO JUMP? Three weeks go by and I hear of this thing called a "phenolic tip". Some guy suggests I put one on my new break cue for better breaks. I give it a shot. Again a jump shot situation comes up. I want to use my cheap Action cue, but lucky for me it now has a phenolic tip on it. CAN I USE IT TO JUMP?

KMRUNOUT

First case scenario, since it is a cue with a leather tip it is safe to say it is designed for regular play and yes, you could use it.

In the second case, no, a cue with a phenolic tip is not designed for normal play, so no, you could not use it to jump.