Low Deflection shafts

Patrick Johnson said:
Higher squirt shafts have pivot points closer to most bridge lengths, so they're likely to compensate more accurately for unintended squirt.

pj
chgo
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I disagree with that because the overall squirt of a low deflection shaft is lower than a normal shaft in any given shot. Unless you an absolutely ideal bridgelength and the angle of the cue perfectly accounts for the squirt, a LD shaft should shoot straighter than a normal shaft.
 
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Masayoshi said:
Unless you an absolutely ideal bridgelength and the angle of the cue perfectly accounts for the squirt, a LD shaft should shoot straighter than a normal shaft.
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The farther apart your bridge and your shaft's pivot length are, the greater the error in squirt compensation if you pivot at the bridge. This seems intuitively obvious to me, but I can illustrate it if necessary.

I think it's also obvious that the pivot length of a high-squirt shaft is probably closer to the bridge than that of a low-squirt shaft.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The farther apart your bridge and your shaft's pivot length are, the greater the error in squirt compensation if you pivot at the bridge. This seems intuitively obvious to me, but I can illustrate it if necessary.

I think it's also obvious that the pivot length of a high-squirt shaft is probably closer to the bridge than that of a low-squirt shaft.

pj
chgo
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Yes, its closer, but that doesn't mean that the accuracy will be greater when accounting for the higher deflection of the shaft. I am posturing that even if you don't use the bridge length for a LD shaft that cancels out squirt, the accuracy will still be better than if you use close to an ideal bridge length, but not an absolutely perfect bridge length with a normal shaft. If you are able to use an absolutely perfect bridge length all the time, you are a robot.
 
Kevin varney LD

this is advailible
a198.jpg

MMike
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Sorry, but that is what it means.

pj
chgo
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Do you have any empirical evidence to back that up? Because in my experience, ld shafts cover up stroke errors much more than regular shafts do. Also, I would point out that your claim only holds true if you are basing your bridge on the bhe pivot length, which many people are obviously not
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Sorry, but that is what it means.

pj
chgo
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Masayoshi said:
Do you have any empirical evidence to back that up? Because in my experience, ld shafts cover up stroke errors much more than regular shafts do. Also, I would point out that your claim only holds true if you are basing your bridge on the bhe pivot length, which many people are obviously not
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I think what Pat might be referring to, is a phenomenon described by Bob Jewett in his April 2011 article in Billiards Digest:

(In this PDF, scroll down to page 28, entitled, "Stroke Fiddling")
http://sfbilliards.com/articles/cols2011r.pdf

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
I think what Pat might be referring to, is a phenomenon described by Bob Jewett in his April 2011 article in Billiards Digest:

(In this PDF, scroll down to page 28, entitled, "Stroke Fiddling")
http://sfbilliards.com/articles/cols2011r.pdf
Click to expand...
What Bob calls the "sweet spot" is also called the cue's "natural pivot length." Here's a demo of a procedure one can use to find the "sweet spot" of their cue:
More info on this topic can be found here:

However, as Bob also points out, swerve and throw also enter the picture. Back-hand English (BHE) or automatic squirt cancellation (e.g., with stroke errors) will be effective only for shots of certain speeds, distances, and spins. Demonstrations of these effects can be viewed here:

More info on this topic can be found here:

This is a very complicated topic, but the bottom-line advice is pretty simple: LD shafts have longer natural pivot lengths, and a longer bridge length (well-matched to this "sweet spot") can be helpful, as long as you have a solid understanding or good feel for squirt, swerve, and throw effects.

Regards,
Dave
 
It took me a few years to buy into the LD shafts,but I finally broke down and got a Predator small cat.
I'll never get another type of shaft ever.It just plays so much easier.
It also took me even longer to buy into layered tips,I was a Triangle man.
I recently switched to Talisman tips and will never use a Triangle again.

My point is,there is no gimmick in these newer products,the results have been in for some time now,and they do what the manufacturer says.

Check out Talisman Billiards web site,they guarantee you'll love their tips,and if you don't they refund your money,and the cost of the installation!

Check out my blog,I did a Talisman Tip review on Water Buffalo hard,medium and the new break/jump tips.
 
I think LD shafts are all good and fun.

But the guy shooting with a BRAND NEW preditor, ob2, jacoby edge, etc. locks horns with the guy that's been shooting with a "high deflection" shaft for 10+ years or what ever, i'm betting on the junk cue.

LD shafts are ok. You CAN get a good low deflecting shaft from a standard piece of wood with good selection and superior craftsmanship. In addition I don't care if you have a cue crafted by sweet baby jesus, an LD shaft will never be good enough to replace practice, and experience.

I like my standard maple shaft, seems like it holds up to jumping a little better.

just my little $.02

Justin
 
Me:
The farther apart your bridge and your shaft's pivot length are, the greater the error in squirt compensation if you pivot at the bridge.
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Masayoshi:
...in my experience, ld shafts cover up stroke errors much more than regular shafts do. Also, I would point out that your claim only holds true if you are basing your bridge on the bhe pivot length, which many people are obviously not
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Actually, the opposite is true: my "claim" is a simple geometric principle that shows the effect of a difference between your bridge and your shaft's pivot length.

I'm not able to post a diagram right now, so I'll have to try to explain this with words:

Let's say your bridge length is 8 inches and you unintentionally hit the CB 1/4 inch offcenter. Geometrically, this means that your stick is aimed 1/4 inch offline for every 8 inches of cue ball travel. What happens with shafts having different pivot lengths?

If pivot length = 8 inches:
- CB squirts offline 1/4 inch per 8 inches of travel
- cue angle (1/4 inch per 8 inches of travel in the opposite direction) exactly compensates for squirt

If pivot length = 12 inches:
- CB squirts offline 1/4 inch per 12 inches of travel
- cue angle (1/4 inch per 8 inches of travel in the opposite direction = 3/8 inch per 12 inches of travel) overcompensates for squirt by an extra 1/8 inch per 12 inches of CB travel

If pivot length = 16 inches:
- CB squirts offline 1/4 inch per 16 inches of travel
- cue angle (1/4 inch per 8 inches of travel in the opposite direction = 1/2 inch per 12 inches of travel) overcompensates for squirt by an extra 1/4 inch per 12 inches of CB travel

The simple geometry of this shows clearly that a greater difference between bridge length and pivot length = a greater error in CB direction for unintended sidespin/squirt. Low-deflection pivot lengths are longer than typical bridge lengths, and the lower the deflection the longer the pivot length (and therefore the greater the difference between the two).

pj
chgo
 
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3andstop said:
Thing is I never really believed it and just now I'm so curious if its true that I'm ready to spend the money to find out. :)
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You don't have to spend a whole lot of money. Buy one used on AZ and try it. If you don't like it, resale it and try another brand. Once you find find one that feels right, spend three months with it and get used to it. It takes a while.

I recommend that you try an OB Classic shaft. It is a quality made shaft with the crisp hit of solid maple. Predators and OB1s have a dead (soft) hit in my opinion.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Actually, the opposite is true: my "claim" is a simple geometric principle that shows the effect of a difference between your bridge and your shaft's pivot length.

I'm not able to post a diagram right now, so I'll have to try to explain this with words:

Let's say your bridge length is 8 inches and you unintentionally hit the CB 1/4 inch offcenter. Geometrically, this means that your stick is aimed 1/4 inch offline for every 8 inches of cue ball travel. What happens with shafts having different pivot lengths?

If pivot length = 8 inches:
- CB squirts offline 1/4 inch per 8 inches of travel
- cue angle (1/4 inch per 8 inches of travel in the opposite direction) exactly compensates for squirt

If pivot length = 12 inches:
- CB squirts offline 1/4 inch per 12 inches of travel
- cue angle (1/4 inch per 8 inches of travel in the opposite direction = 3/8 inch per 12 inches of travel) overcompensates for squirt by an extra 1/8 inch per 12 inches of CB travel

If pivot length = 16 inches:
- CB squirts offline 1/4 inch per 16 inches of travel
- cue angle (1/4 inch per 8 inches of travel in the opposite direction = 1/2 inch per 12 inches of travel) overcompensates for squirt by an extra 1/4 inch per 12 inches of CB travel

The simple geometry of this shows clearly that a greater difference between bridge length and pivot length = a greater error in CB direction for unintended sidespin/squirt.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

What happens when the error isn't based on a bhe shift?
 
Masayoshi said:
What happens when the error isn't based on a bhe shift?
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If "based on a bhe shift" means your shaft's pivot length = your bridge length, that's the first scenario I described (and there is no squirt correction error).

But if "based on a bhe shift" means you're pivoting at your bridge regardless of your shaft's pivot length, then all of the scenarios I described apply because that's the definition of all unintentional offcenter hits.

pj
chgo

P.S. Keep in mind that I'm only talking about compensating for squirt. If we bring swerve into consideration then simple geometry can't predict the outcome.
 
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jhanso18 said:
I think LD shafts are all good and fun.

But the guy shooting with a BRAND NEW preditor, ob2, jacoby edge, etc. locks horns with the guy that's been shooting with a "high deflection" shaft for 10+ years or what ever, i'm betting on the junk cue.

LD shafts are ok. You CAN get a good low deflecting shaft from a standard piece of wood with good selection and superior craftsmanship. In addition I don't care if you have a cue crafted by sweet baby jesus, an LD shaft will never be good enough to replace practice, and experience.

I like my standard maple shaft, seems like it holds up to jumping a little better.

just my little $.02

Justin
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I agree with this post,, practice makes perfect,or damn close..

To the "Original poster",
if you're interested in trying a LD shaft , Id suggest going with a Mezz Wd700, as that shaft has low deflection properties, a solid stiff hit, and decent feel. Wd700 will be a easier adjustment from the conventional shaft you currently use.. 314-2s ,and OB 1s have even lower deflection than a wd700, but 314-2s lack in feel, and Ob1s hit to soft, imo..

Good luck with your search..
 
jhanso18:
You CAN get a good low deflecting shaft from a standard piece of wood with good selection and superior craftsmanship.
Click to expand...
Only if the wood selection and superior craftsmanship includes significantly reducing the shaft's endmass.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If "based on a bhe shift" means your shaft's pivot length = your bridge length, that's the first scenario I described (and there is no squirt correction error).

But if "based on a bhe shift" means you're pivoting at your bridge regardless of your shaft's pivot length, then all of the scenarios I described apply because that's the definition of all unintentional offcenter hits.

pj
chgo

P.S. Keep in mind that I'm only talking about compensating for squirt. If we bring swerve into consideration then simple geometry can't predict the outcome.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's the case because the stroke error can also be in the bridge hand, unless you have hands made out of steel.
 
Masayoshi said:
I don't think that's the case because the stroke error can also be in the bridge hand, unless you have hands made out of steel.
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If we don't know where the bridge is then neither you nor I can predict the outcome with high or low deflection shafts.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Only if the wood selection and superior craftsmanship includes significantly reducing the shaft's endmass.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...



see JUICED shafts on google. I play a conventional shaft with a very small taper like 11.75 or 12, and clipped harder tip, with a lighter ferrule material. if you need less deflection than that, you just flat out cant shoot.

Deflection can be caused by so many different variables it's stupid to try and list them all. It doesn't matter how much a cue deflects or squirts. If you get use to playing with a POS, and you only ever play with that POS, then you learn to play with it, instead of against it...

LD snobs make me laugh, best player I've ever seen other than Shane played with a woody custom, and 3 conventional shafts. And if you really want to get technical, SVB plays with the "worst/cheapest" LD shaft out there and still makes every one look like fools when they play him!!


for what it's worth,

Justin
 
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