Got Cheated In Olathe

[justadub]

first of all,sorry about the jumbled writing.i just drove 7 hours and i was still upset over the call. i didnt know how to post on here, finally figured it out and just kept writing.

our match started at 1.15pm i got up at 11am, i was hardly drunk, breakfast, coffee, and juice. fortunate for me, i know david peat and he graciously offered to give me grammer lessons. i may have had a few to many and made an ass out of myself like a lot of you do when you turn your computer on.

i have apoligized already for my behavour, how long has evelyn been running tournaments, do you really think this was an honest error, i dont.
chip,joey, and myself have drinks together, we gamble against each other,and bet on each other. i have gambled high against both of them and never,never had any problem with either one of them.

i cant believe the stupid comments that are made on this forum. i bet 90 percent of the people that talk their shit wish they could run 5 balls. i am not crying or whining about what happened, i am f...king mad. if all you bullshit talkers could compete at this level, you may understand.

ive been around a long time, i know right from wrong and so does evelyn. have a nice day. hey billy, thanks for the post.

gl

A couple of points for you to consider. Now bear in mind, I would love to be able to run 5 balls, so that might mean I'm not qualified to have an objective opinion on things...

On the grammar stuff. This last post of yours was perfectly readable, for the purposes of a forum. The grammar and punctuation itself isn't a problem for anyone here, if the post can be understood. I can understand how the first post happened, the way it did, if you haven't done this before and you were hot, tired, and perhaps had a couple of beverages. Now that you've slept a little, you've made yourself easily understood. The explanation works. You also need to understand why it was difficult to comprehend for the rest of us. Read it out loud to yourself the way it was typed on the screen, not the way you were saying it in your head, and you'll see... BTW, a big LOL on who you have for your "grammar coach."

Back to the 5 balls issue, for a moment. If you feel that anyone that can't run 5 balls isn't worthy of having an opinion, you will have a difficult time here. Not because that applies to many of the posters here (besides me, I suppose.... I don't know, and don't really care) but because the ability to pocket balls doesn't correlate to the ability to reason in a discussion. It simply doesn't.

I see that type of response here regularly, as a way of dismissing those who disagree with someone. Unless the discussion is directly related to that players ability in a game, or his ability to make shots, it doesn't matter. This particular discussion is about how things were handled at a tournament. My ability (or lack thereof) to run balls has no bearing on being able to understand how this was handled. It simply doesn't.

All that having been said, it sounds as though it wasn't handled very well, by all concerned. I'm glad I wasn't in the position to have to make that decision, and I'm sorry that it came down to such a decision having to be made.

I hope you can hang around and find a way to enjoy the forum.

 

[jay helfert]

Tough luck Gary! I'm sorry that you feel like you got a bad call, but by our age we know LIFE isn't always fair. If I told everyone about all the bad calls I've had in poker and pool it would fill pages:sad:. I didn't like it and sometimes I got mad, but usually all I could do was leave and take my lumps.

Here's a good one for you. I was playing 40-80 Hold'em at the Bay 101 Casino in San Jose. I'm not a regular there so no one really knew me. I like it that way sometimes. I'm in a monster pot and I've got K,K. The flop is A,T,8. Four people call the bet, including me. The dealer starts to burn and turn a KING! Now the player in the nine seat says he hasn't acted! They call the floor man over and he listens to the player and the dealer, both of them he obviously knows well. I keep trying to talk and he tells me to wait. I SAW the guy check! Before I can say anything the floor man tells the dealer to take back the card and shuffle it in the deck and turn a new card. Yes you heard me right, my opinion didn't matter and I got screwed out of $1,000 pot! I was so royally pissed but no one cared. I complained to the shift manager and he offered me a food comp. I have never played in that casino again! All I can do is take my business elsewhere.

As someone who has often directed tournaments I can relate to Evelyn's situation also. We can make mistakes ourselves and I've missed more than one call. Efren told me about one I missed after a match, but God bless him he never said anything during the match. I remember this one best. Howard Vickery was playing Lou Butera in Sid Mann's tourney in Austin and I was the ref. Howard was jacked up over a ball and shooting at an object ball near the pocket. He miscued but still made the ball. I didn't call a foul. Lou went crazy and told me I was wrong. He said on a miscue it had to be a foul. The score at the time was maybe 3-2 in a Race to Eleven. Lou lost that match 11-9 and blamed me for the loss. He didn't talk to me for about five years after that (I thought we were friends) and told me I was not welcome in his poolroom!

I like the way Dennis Orcollo handles things. He's a pretty sharp cookie, just like Manny Pacquio. They both have learned to just let it go, it's not worth the aggravation. I loved the way Manny handled the bad decision he got in his last fight. He NEVER complained once! Dennis is the same way in pool (so is Efren). If he gets a bad call he just shrugs his shoulders and continues with the match. It's not a perfect world and sometimes life just ain't fair. Sorry buddy, but don't let it spoil your day. :thumbup2:

 

[Bigtruck]

Tough luck Gary! I'm sorry that you feel like you got a bad call, but by our age we know LIFE isn't always fair. If I told everyone about all the bad calls I've had in poker and pool it would fill pages:sad:. I didn't like it and sometimes I got mad, but usually all I could do was leave and take my lumps.

Here's a good one for you. I was playing 40-80 Hold'em at the Bay 101 Casino in San Jose. I'm not a regular there so no one really knew me. I like it that way sometimes. I'm in a monster pot and I've got K,K. The flop is A,T,8. Four people call the bet, including me. The dealer starts to burn and turn a KING! Now the player in the nine seat says he hasn't acted! They call the floor man over and he listens to the player and the dealer, both of them he obviously knows well. I keep trying to talk and he tells me to wait. I SAW the guy check! Before I can say anything the floor man tells the dealer to take back the card and shuffle it in the deck and turn a new card. Yes you heard me right, my opinion didn't matter and I got screwed out of $1,000 pot! I was so royally pissed but no one cared. I complained to the shift manager and he offered me a food comp. I have never played in that casino again! All I can do is take my business elsewhere.

As someone who has often directed tournaments I can relate to Evelyn's situation also. We can make mistakes ourselves and I've missed more than one call. Efren told me about one I missed after a match, but God bless him he never said anything during the match. I remember this one best. Howard Vickery was playing Lou Butera in Sid Mann's tourney in Austin and I was the ref. Howard was jacked up over a ball and shooting at an object ball near the pocket. He miscued but still made the ball. I didn't call a foul. Lou went crazy and told me I was wrong. He said on a miscue it had to be a foul. The score at the time was maybe 3-2 in a Race to Eleven. Lou lost that match 11-9 and blamed me for the loss. He didn't talk to me for about five years after that (I thought we were friends) and told me I was not welcome in his poolroom!

I like the way Dennis Orcollo handles things. He's a pretty sharp cookie, just like Manny Pacquio. They both have learned to just let it go, it's not worth the aggravation. I loved the way Manny handled the bad decision he got in his last fight. He NEVER complained once! Dennis is the same way in pool (so is Efren). If he gets a bad call he just shrugs his shoulders and continues with the match. It's not a perfect world and sometimes life just ain't fair. Sorry buddy, but don't let it spoil your day. :thumbup2:

One of the hardest things in life is to let things go. That hate and contempt can burn deep. It can change our entire life if we let it. This is why forgiveness is so important. Forgiveness allows us to move on and be ready for opportunities.

Don't let good things pass you by. Be ready for them with a solid positive attitude.

Ray

 

[Duane Tuula]

The dreaded disturbed ball ruling. When Evelyn was asking questions regarding positions she was playing by the rules. The attempt is to estimate a ball width on either side of the estimated original position. Since a ball is 2 1/4" you are looking at a 6 3/4" area.

While it is true the ref did not see the shot the goal is simply to determine if the outcome of the shot was potentially changed. As someone previously stated, bad things happen when you move a ball.

I don't know the discussion details on ball placements but her reasons for calling a foul are certainly valid.

 

[hijeep]

I was there too and I didn't see the shot but I heard all about it. Everyone that was at the tournament heard all about the call, the situation, and pretty much everyone agreed that best call would have been a re-rack, if Joey thought it was a foul and Gary did not agree. But definitely to award ball in hand on a shot that she did not see, without asking an opinion from anyone else, was wrong in my opinion.

I didn't hear Evelyn's explanation of the call. I don't know what prompted her to make the call but no one thinks it's because she it was pro Joey vs. Gary. Gary had a meltdown. He proceeded to get wasted and complained about that call to anyone who would listen up until his next match about 12 hours later.

He didn't exactly forfeit his next match. He was winning that match 7-0, playing about 2 tables from Evelyn when he went over and started beligerently barraging her over the call again disrupting the entire tournament! :angry:

He got a tough break, it was a bad call to give him ball in hand I think, but like it has been mentioned, he moved a ball. If you move balls, bad things can happen to you. Joey said he shot the eight and scratched two rails in the side before that, maybe that was the shot that cost him the match.

He should have put his game face on, turning his misfortune into positive energy, and stormed his way through the losers bracket and got in the money, or maybe win the tournament, who knows. He's a tough player and a fierce competitor but he has always been honest and fair when he's playing. He obviously stands up for what he believes in as we all know now.

I sum it up like this: Bad call by Evelyn. Bad behavior by Gary. All around unfortunate situation.

 

[bob b.]

Geeezzz,

For a second, I thought Danny Harriman had started another thread...

 

[hang-the-9]

Howard Vickery was playing Lou Butera in Sid Mann's tourney in Austin and I was the ref. Howard was jacked up over a ball and shooting at an object ball near the pocket. He miscued but still made the ball. I didn't call a foul. Lou went crazy and told me I was wrong. He said on a miscue it had to be a foul. The score at the time was maybe 3-2 in a Race to Eleven. Lou lost that match 11-9 and blamed me for the loss. He didn't talk to me for about five years after that (I thought we were friends) and told me I was not welcome in his poolroom!

I thought the general/unwritten rule was that a miscue is not a foul unless you don't contact a ball or rail (usually because the result of a miscue is bad for the shooter anyway). In several of the slow mo videos they show that on a miscue the ball often contacts the ferrule which is a foul, but that it's often a non-called foul. A bit like a non-call in football when both players are shoving around for a ball without a huge hold or push by someone.

I'd love to call a foul when someone miscues and you hear the click of the ferrule, but since I've done that as well, I keep quiet about it :smile:

 

[TheNewSharkster]

first of all,sorry about the jumbled writing.i just drove 7 hours and i was still upset over the call. i didnt know how to post on here, finally figured it out and just kept writing.

our match started at 1.15pm i got up at 11am, i was hardly drunk, breakfast, coffee, and juice. fortunate for me, i know david peat and he graciously offered to give me grammer lessons. i may have had a few to many and made an ass out of myself like a lot of you do when you turn your computer on.

i have apoligized already for my behavour, how long has evelyn been running tournaments, do you really think this was an honest error, i dont.
chip,joey, and myself have drinks together, we gamble against each other,and bet on each other. i have gambled high against both of them and never,never had any problem with either one of them.

i cant believe the stupid comments that are made on this forum. i bet 90 percent of the people that talk their shit wish they could run 5 balls. i am not crying or whining about what happened, i am f...king mad. if all you bullshit talkers could compete at this level, you may understand.

ive been around a long time, i know right from wrong and so does evelyn. have a nice day. hey billy, thanks for the post.

gl

Next time don't touch the 5ball. You did that and that is what caused the problem.

 

[dmcwhirk]

Excuse me Sir, and I use that word loosely. I am not 'defending' anybody. I am stating facts as a spectator, which there were many of us. You were beligerant in your behavior and out of line. How can someone who could literally barely stand up when his match started, be accurate in his account of the situation. I watched you not even being able to mark your wins because you couldn't see it on the wire. As far as the charge, you physcially were trying to push people out of the way. Me smoke something? Excuse me I've been alcohol and drug free for over 17 years, can you say that? I don't think so. I have not gotten personal. I suggest you do the same. Stick to the facts, and if true it will free you. Otherwise you can keep talking. It took them 45 minutes to get you even out of the building. You liiterally put a stop to the tournament. Again, you blew up over something that occuerd probably 12 hours before. But because of the level of alcohol in your system things got blew up waay out of proprotion. And as far as shooting well enough to win the tournament. I don't think so. Young Skyler Woodward was shooting awesome, and ultimately Shane McMinn could not double dip him to win.

 

[smoooothstroke]

nm..............

 

[tommyceilings]

I've seen Gary play, gamble, and spectate for over 20 years, and I can't think of him being out of line. We're talking him stuck a lot, even up a lot, as well as playing in tournaments.

It was a bad call. You did get a raw deal Gary. The worst thing that should have happened was a re-rack and play the game over. She took Joey's opinion over yours it seems. I have seen Gary play and gamble alot, and he's not a whiner, and what he did after the match has nothing to do with it. Billy Kuykendall.

 

[kcpoolnpoker]

Wrong Call / Right Call does not matter!!!!

I was there for the whole thing Gary and was there to see your blow up 14 hours later. Judges rulings are final you know this. Like it or not. We all know this.

I think your a great player. I think that because of things you might of over reacted in the end. But get over it. Move on friend. And lets see you playing in future tournaments!!!

Good luck with your voyage down the pool player highway. Enjoy watching you play and hope to see you play again.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Old buddy Gary, you know I think you're a good dude and I've been around you plenty of times and never seen you so fired up. I've seen you pay off thousands without a peep just a hand shake and a wink.

There's no doubt you got screwed in this deal. Just charge it to the game, have surgery, get well and bust em all is the only advice I got for you brother. Just look at it this way, karma should be giving you a real good roll in the near future or maybe something good happened because you werent in the tourney anymore.

Best of luck buddy.

Mikey Frost

 

[btown]

One rule "every" pool player knows.. If you don't get someone to watch a close hit...

It goes to the shooter!!!

Especially such a crucial game, it should not be called against the shooter with nobody having judged the shot.

 

[JumpinJoe]

This is why i dont get online. Ignorent people make ignorent comments, chip,joey, and i have been friends a long time and still are. I am in a position to win this tournament,and this outragiously unfair call by a seasoned tournament director who lives in oklahoma, is this a mistake, or is this a biased call. Im not a f king crybaby, for all you nonplaying ,uneducated wanna be poolplayers, and i dont mean everyone on this thread. People who know me know this. Im still, and will continue to be upset, i was f ked. How can you make a call like that without seeing it.

Gl

Gary,
Brent Thomas here. Obiously Evey made a bad call. Sounds like you did get ****ed. Its your word verse Joeys, and if she does not want to ask innocent bystanders then she should have gave you the shooter the call.

Most know you, Chip and Joey are buds and I doubt either of you two to screw each other. I know you guys are buds as last time I was up there they staked you to play Manny

 

[Luxury]

It appears some facts were left out. I was there and witnessed the whole thing. She based her call on how the situation was explained to her the first timee. The description of the scenario changed by like 6 inches the mote was said. Also gary was absolutely wasted by 8pm that night. The match he's complaining about happened easy earlier in the day. The match he was forfeited .from was at 1:30 am the following morning. He also neglected to mention he physically charged at evelyn. Immediately there was a wall of bodies in front of her. I don't care the situation, nobody should EVER act in public the way you did. Your buddy Whitey stuck up for you and walked out behind you in protest. Bit you were solo intoxicated you turned on him too. Swearing up and down for something that had absolutely nothing to do with the match you were in.

No one is commenting on the fact that the OP may have contradicted himself when describing the layout and what happened.

Hypothetically the OP may have pointed to where the Five was then being drunk, forgot where he said and then later explained the path the cue ball travelled and it may have been described as a foul.

Then when the TD points out that the drunk had said earlier that you claimed it was here, the drunk says I meant it was over here.

The TD might conclude that due to alcohol the judgement of the shooter can't be trusted and since hd described it himself as a foul then a foul is ruled.

I'm not saying that is exactly what happened but I'm not as quick as most to say she was wrong.

I'd love for her to chime in.

 

[jhanso18]

I don't envy any tournament director's job. it's a pain, but it all comes back to the same thing. if it was close they should have called over some one to judge it.


best,

Justin

 

[pt109]

No one is commenting on the fact that the OP may have contradicted himself when describing the layout and what happened.

Hypothetically the OP may have pointed to where the Five was then being drunk, forgot where he said and then later explained the path the cue ball travelled and it may have been described as a foul.

Then when the TD points out that the drunk had said earlier that you claimed it was here, the drunk says I meant it was over here.

The TD might conclude that due to alcohol the judgement of the shooter can't be trusted and since hd described it himself as a foul then a foul is ruled.

I'm not saying that is exactly what happened but I'm not as quick as most to say she was wrong.

I'd love for her to chime in.

The way I read it...he got drunk later, not for his first match.
...and I don't understand why some refs and TDs will not ask for
info from spectators...they still are the bottom line, decision-wise.

 

[delmari001]

The man got cheated. Afterwards, he supposedly drunk a little and supposedly got a little out of hand. Whatever...Who cares??? That's not the point here. During the match he got shafted by a bad call. The ball might have hit the 5 ball due to a 6" rule? WTF?? Anyone would be upset after a call like that. No ref watched the shot, he did not move the ball on purpose, could have moved it back and resume play. TD calls it a foul and gives up the match. Bad call.

 

[Luxury]

The man got cheated. Afterwards, he supposedly drunk a little and supposedly got a little out of hand. Whatever...Who cares??? That's not the point here. During the match he got shafted by a bad call. The ball might have hit the 5 ball due to a 6" rule? WTF?? Anyone would be upset after a call like that. No ref watched the shot, he did not move the ball on purpose, could have moved it back and resume play. TD calls it a foul and gives up the match. Bad call.

In your post you make it sound like you don't even understand the rule. Then you rule she made a bad call?