Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

[robsnotes4u]

from a non-smoker

It's because the guy WHO OWNS THE SPACE INSIDE is Ok with it. It's HIS property so HE calls the shots. Those who can live with that, go there; those who don't, go elsewhere. That's freedom of choice.

When property is controlled by politicians, smokers must go out into the public space and pollute that. I'd rather have the choice to (not) go inside a smoking establishment than have to endure smoke while I'm in a public space. If it's the govt's job to protect the public, wouldn't doing that in a public place be THE spot to actually do that? But nooooo, they drive smokers into the public where there is no choice but to endure it.

Sense?

I am a non-smoker, and don't like being around it. With that being, I totally agree with you. I believe the person who owns the business should be free to make the decision if he wants smokers or not. If you are an employee it is your choice to work there or not.

I have the freedom to not go to the establishment if I do not like it. People will vote with their dollars, an the owner will decide by that.

My experience with the no smoking law in Fargo. I was at the mall with my wife a christmas time, too a break from shopping to have a drink, and asked the bartender how business was after the smoking ban. He said he was scared at first, business went down. Then after a few months business really increased. There were more people eating, and stopping in for a drink. The only thing that seemed to decline was the late night traffic, which he said he could really do without anyway. Again, it should have beent the business owners choice not a govt mandate.

Our pool hall in Fargo, Fargo Billiards, is full of people all the time and the smokers just walk outside to smoke. Fargo gets pretty cold in the winter (20 to 40 below zero). I never hear any complaints. I do know a lot of people, myself included who would not be there if smoking was aloud.

 

[GoldCrown]

Not sure if I posted here before.....I quit smoking 1989...2-3 packs per. Lost my brother...he died of lung cancer at 55. I'm anti tobacco and will tell people if I can quit anyone can quit. Anyway let me stay on the subject. A business should call it's own shots. I went to a pool room in Hamilton, NJ. The place was empty. The owner said the ban killed his business. Just curious why the Casinos have smoking sections. No smoking bans in Atlantic City. Light em if you got em.

I'm getting a flashback of the GoldCrown's with the ashtrays. Cigs burning in every corner. Forgetabout losing $$ at the table. I lost more in burnt clothing in the 60's:killingme::killingme:

Question is... do tobacco stores have to honor any smoking bans

 

[Paul Schofield]

I am a non-smoker, and don't like being around it. With that being, I totally agree with you. I believe the person who owns the business should be free to make the decision if he wants smokers or not. If you are an employee it is your choice to work there or not.

I have the freedom to not go to the establishment if I do not like it. People will vote with their dollars, an the owner will decide by that.

My experience with the no smoking law in Fargo. I was at the mall with my wife a christmas time, too a break from shopping to have a drink, and asked the bartender how business was after the smoking ban. He said he was scared at first, business went down. Then after a few months business really increased. There were more people eating, and stopping in for a drink. The only thing that seemed to decline was the late night traffic, which he said he could really do without anyway. Again, it should have beent the business owners choice not a govt mandate.

Our pool hall in Fargo, Fargo Billiards, is full of people all the time and the smokers just walk outside to smoke. Fargo gets pretty cold in the winter (20 to 40 below zero). I never hear any complaints. I do know a lot of people, myself included who would not be there if smoking was aloud.

This is an excellent post. It brings the conversation full circle back to the original post.

POOL DOES NOT HAVE A SMOKING PROBLEM. POOL HAS A DEMOGRAPHICS ISSUE.

The smoking issue has exposed pool's soft under-belly. I wish I could visit Mike Page's place. I suspect that the demographic of his entire clientèle as a whole is different than most poolrooms. That changes everything. I would bet that fewer of his customers smoke as compared to the average room. That changes the prospect of his survival and ultimate success.

I will reprint the last paragraph in my OP:
The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is. Right now, it does not compete well.

 

[Spider1]

You think I was upset? LMAO! Wow, this from the guy whose avatar says bite me? You consider property owner's rights "blind defensiveness" and compare that to "feelings" or emotions akin to those who defend rapists and murderers.

Uhhh.....

Go back and read my posts again. Don't skim. Read the words. Let them sink in.

Now, if you read closely, you'll notice I've said a few times that people get defensive and upset when their totalitarian beliefs get pointed out to them.

Totalitarian: to·tal·i·tar·i·an
   [toh-tal-i-tair-ee-uhn] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to a centralized government that does not tolerate parties of differing opinion and that exercises dictatorial control over many aspects of life.
2.
exercising control over the freedom, will, or thought of others; authoritarian; autocratic.

It's patently obvious that advocating private property right infringement is totalitarianism.

Therefore, people who think it is ok to infringe on property rights are totalitarians. By infringing on property rights, I mean smoking bans. Smoking bans are an infringement on the property owner's right to use his property and run his business as he sees fit.

Follow me so far?

Well the people who like smoking bans get pretty upset when you point out they have a totalitarian belief system. Why? That's the defensiveness and irrational thinking that I spoke about earlier in the post with 'big words' that seemed to set you off. People get upset and close their ears/minds to logic or thinking a problem/question through, and all debate goes out the window.

Which is kind of where we are now. But I hope this helped a bit.

Reading your posts does in fact make me believe you could have been a speech writer for Lenin, Castro and many other Communist or Socialist dictators.

 

[justadub]

Demographics certainly play into it. But it also becomes an issue of certain demographics adapting, as well.

I would say that it is likely that over half the folks that play at our club smoke. Of course on any given day, that number could fluctuate, either a little more than half to a little fewer.

They all go outside, and it isn't an issue for anyone. They have adapted, and still choose to play pool, and to socialize with friends at our club.

When the rules are followed, and the establishments work to accomodate the smokers by making designated smokers areas that are nice, and can provide shelter if necessary....it works. For everyone.

 

[Spider1]

Spider, this is a perfect time to try out my techniques.

Perfect!

Jeff Livington

:lol:

Seriously, now do you see why I think these threads are useless?

You even get people who agree about an issue arguing because of reading comprehension issues. It's just sad, and I still don't think anyone gets convinced of anything.

 

[robsnotes4u]

thanks

This is an excellent post. It brings the conversation full circle back to the original post.

POOL DOES NOT HAVE A SMOKING PROBLEM. POOL HAS A DEMOGRAPHICS ISSUE.

The smoking issue has exposed pool's soft under-belly. I wish I could visit Mike Page's place. I suspect that the demographic of his entire clientèle as a whole is different than most poolrooms. That changes everything. I would bet that fewer of his customers smoke as compared to the average room. That changes the prospect of his survival and ultimate success.

I will reprint the last paragraph in my OP:
The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is. Right now, it does not compete well.

What is really interesting about Mike's place is on Friday and Saturday nights you will see a lot of couple or groups of people playing pool who aren't your regulars, and would be considered beginner level pool players.

What makes it work in my mind:
-The Owner is amazing
-A beginner league to get new people involved.
-Great food
-Great atmosphere
-a family section for those under 21
-A trivia night
-many TV's for games, shows, streams
-Private rooms for events
-great local players
-tournaments, handicapped and non-handicapped
-The People

My wife doesn't play pool, but her place of choice to go is to Fargo Billiards. It keeps getting busier and busier.

As far as pool playing, the best people in the region play here. So with all the extras, Fargo Billiards is a pool hall.:thumbup:

 

[zensteve]

Spider1 wrote:
It's patently obvious that advocating private property right infringement is totalitarianism.

Me: You seem to exercise broad absolutes. You would agree that all rights have caveats implied? Right?

You continue:Therefore, people who think it is ok to infringe on property rights are totalitarians.

Me: Your silogism reminds me of the correlation/causation argument. It goes something like this. " All most all bank robbers eat bread 24hrs before robbing a bank." "Ergo, bread causes bankrobbing.

You continue: Follow me so far?

Me: Of course but being condescending makes it difficult.

You continue: Well the people who like smoking bans get pretty upset when you point out they have a totalitarian belief system. Why?

Me: Because you are making broad sweeping accusations and name calling?

 

[OneIron]

It's because the guy WHO OWNS THE SPACE INSIDE is Ok with it. It's HIS property so HE calls the shots. Those who can live with that, go there; those who don't, go elsewhere. That's freedom of choice.

We're in agreement here, Jeff. As much as I dislike the smell of the cigarette smoke and the potential health issues for all who are exposed to it, I would rather business owners make that decision themselves.

However, that's not reality. Government mandates abound. ADA mandates wheelchair ramps and placement of mirrors and sinks in restrooms. Civil Rights laws mandate who must be served. Health laws mandate cleanliness. None of this is going to change.

Anti-smoking legislation is inevitable as long as smokers are militant about exposing other folks to their toxins. What I don't understand is why smokers don't show a little more courtesy to non-smokers and simply step outside. If I were a smoker, it wouldn't occur to me to expose non-smokers to my habit. But that's just me.

I love pool and have been playing in leagues for over 20 years. That's probably going to change at the end of this session due to the unhealthy atmosphere. But that's my choice.

The bar owners currently have the right to cater to the smoking crowd at the possible exclusion of the non-smokers. And I'm ok with that.

 

[nobcitypool]

:lol:

Seriously, now do you see why I think these threads are useless?

You even get people who agree about an issue arguing because of reading comprehension issues. It's just sad, and I still don't think anyone gets convinced of anything.

Reading comprehension issues? I've always found someone intelligent can explain their thoughts rather simply so one doesn't have to read intently in order to dig out the meaning. I hope you don't pull a muscle patting yourself on the back dude.

 

[chefjeff]

:lol:

Seriously, now do you see why I think these threads are useless?

You even get people who agree about an issue arguing because of reading comprehension issues. It's just sad, and I still don't think anyone gets convinced of anything.

I see that you, after frequenting these forums, have become convinced of that.



You might choose to use it as an opportunity.

Jeff Livingston

 

[KRJ]

But wait, everyone's not happy. Because some people are so childishly selfish that things must be their way everywhere, and everyone must bow to their personal preferences...choice, or rights be damned. This mindset is exactly why our society is getting so completely f*cked up today. No one believes in "live and let live", instead it's "my way or else".

.

Yes, and your personal preferences it to allow smoking, but because we disagree than our preferences must be childish, even though it is backed up by science that it is a health hazard to everyone that goes into the bar, and everyone that works there. OK,, I get it know.


Get use to the idea, cause the smoking laws are here and will only continue. Non smokers WIN :smile:

 

[chefjeff]

Yes, and your personal preferences it to allow smoking, but because we disagree than our preferences must be childish, even though it is backed up by science that it is a health hazard to everyone that goes into the bar, and everyone that works there. OK,, I get it know.


Get use to the idea, cause the smoking laws are here and will only continue. Non smokers WIN :smile:

Spider....another perfect chance!

Jeff Livingston

 

[Paul Schofield]

What is really interesting about Mike's place is on Friday and Saturday nights you will see a lot of couple or groups of people playing pool who aren't your regulars, and would be considered beginner level pool players.

What makes it work in my mind:
-The Owner is amazing
-A beginner league to get new people involved.
-Great food
-Great atmosphere
-a family section for those under 21
-A trivia night
-many TV's for games, shows, streams
-Private rooms for events
-great local players
-tournaments, handicapped and non-handicapped
-The People

My wife doesn't play pool, but her place of choice to go is to Fargo Billiards. It keeps getting busier and busier.

As far as pool playing, the best people in the region play here. So with all the extras, Fargo Billiards is a pool hall.:thumbup:

This does not read like Mike has a smoking crowd. So I ask "What does it mean to pool?" To me, this reads like a demographic success.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Joe could play some Nine-Ball too. When Joe died, it was a bigger loss to pool than the passing of many of our iconic players.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Players want no-smoking

This thread is about what the new smoking laws mean to pool. This thread is not a rant about who has got what rights and the heavy hand of government.

The new smoking laws are a catastrophic blow and a dagger through the heart of the business of pocket billiards. How can this be? Many restaurants and bars that have rid themselves of smoking have actually seen their sales recover and increase. If this is true then this must also extrapolate to poolrooms. It doesn’t. We have lost more than 70% of our poolrooms.

The answer sits in the governments demographic reports on smokers. Its eye opening and easy to see why some businesses benefit and others are destroyed.

1. The more educated an individual is, the less likely he/she smokes. A person with a mere high school education is 8X more like to smoke than a person with a college education beyond a bachelor degree.
2. In parallel, the higher a person’s income and net worth is, the less likely a person smokes. At the same time, the closer a person’s income approaches the poverty line, the more likely a person smokes.
3. Looking at a graph of smokers from the ages of 18 to 80, the closer a person is to the age of 18, the more likely the person smokes.

Who is our clientele? Take a look at the big picture. When a restaurant disallows smoking, and its customer base is from the 2nd and 3rd tier (5 tiers) of the demographic scale, smokers are replaced with many more non-smokers. This is because the smoker to non-smoker ratio heavily favors the non-smokers in this demographic.

The business of pool draws heaviest from the lowest fifth of the demographic scale. The highest percentage of smokers is in this group. Pool appeals to this group and our poolrooms are built to serve this group. Tell them that they can’t smoke in a poolroom and who replaces them? The smoker to non-smoker ratio in this demographic is much different than the tiers above them.

The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is. Right now, it does not compete well.

There's a small pool hall half a mile from where I live that has 8 very old Gandy and unknown maker tables. Before they were re-covered last winter, they were the worst in town. Some of the pockets were held in place with duct tape. The place has cement floors with cracks and ridges that are as much as an inch high. Hardly a place to draw lots of business.

Except for the fact that is non-smoking. Because of this quite a number of teams have left the "better" pool halls and moved to the one I describe.

I'm more convinced all the time that no smoking is the way to go.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

 

[ndakotan]

ND will be smoke-free Dec 6

People voted for the no-smoking referendum in ND.

I'll admit it costs me some money as a business owner as the new law requires all businesses to enforce smoke-free rules inside and within 20 feet of doors/air intake. I'll take that.

 

[Island Drive]

People voted for the no-smoking referendum in ND.

I'll admit it costs me some money as a business owner as the new law requires all businesses to enforce smoke-free rules inside and within 20 feet of doors/air intake. I'll take that.

Congrats, you won't regret it. More Oxygen in the room, its easier on the refrigeration cooling area and you might get non smoking workers to finally consider your place, and families with kids, and birthday parties too.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Congrats, you won't regret it. More Oxygen in the room, its easier on the refrigeration cooling area and you might get non smoking workers to finally consider your place, and families with kids, and birthday parties too.

Here, Here. Well said. :smile:

 

[NickV]

MGT of America was commissioned to carry out a study of the economic impact of the smoking ordinance on restaurant sales and mixed beverage sales in Houston, TX.

Their conclusion was that the smoking ordinances did not appear to carry adverse outcomes for the restaurant and drinking establishment sector in aggregate.

Obviously this was not a study on pool halls.


http://www.houstontx.gov/health/Houston Smoking 2nd Update.pdf

California has had a ban on smoking in commercial establishments since 95 I believe.

Most of the pool halls I have seen close shop in the SF Bay Area have been in the last 2-3 years in the 14 years that I've been here.