a question about "rattling".....

justadub

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Let me preface this by stating this is going to be an extreme generalization. I fully realize that a completely accurate answer can't be had without observation...

That having been said, I rattle the G-D corner pockets far more than I should. It really frustrates me, due to the number of times it happens. It's not a matter of me hitting them too hard, specifically, because it happens at any and all speeds. Usually on cut shots down the rail, either side, and usually from half the table away or more. Not specifically extreme cut shots, either, and it can occur almost straight down the rail. Of course, it occurs more frequently on the better tables, and less frequently at the room where the pockets are, shall we say, "more generous". Still, I manage to rattle those, as well.

A good friend (and far better player) tried to explain to me that most of the time that this happens, I must be hitting the long rail point first, even slightly, to cause this to occur.

If it were a more occasional occurance, I'd chalk it up to any of the many mechanical issues that I'm trying to improve upon. But as it seems to happen so frequently lately, I'm wondering if this particular issue has a common flaw/solution. Undercutting these shots, perhaps?

Thoughts, suggestions? Again, its a generalized scenario, and I'm wondering if there is a general philosophy to apply about this malady? As always, thanks for your suggestions and help.
 
Agree about the Olhausens... :)

Years ago when I missed often it was as you described, rattling the ball and typically from hitting some part of the rail on the way in. On generous or wide cut pockets, this isn't a big deal at normal speeds. As you move up to tighter equipment it becomes much more noticeable.

I'll let the true instructors comment, but in my experience it's a perception or visual thing. You know if you miss too far on the outside the ball won't go, so we tend to hedge our bets a bit and lean toward the rail side of the pocket. Plus visually if you are aiming to the exact center of the pocket often a line to that point causes the ball to hit the rail on the way in.

What you need to learn to do is aim for the center of the effective pocket opening as viewed from the OB perspective. The closer to the rail the OB is the smaller the effective opening, which is why balls hit at speed down the rail need to be very precise to go in, and on some tables it might not go no matter what.

Work on not hitting the rail on the way in at all, you may have to recalibrate the way you aim these shots but it shouldn't take too long. I know I had to do the same when I transitioned from easier, more forgiving equipment to tighter equipment. Now even if a ball goes in at pocket speed but rubs the rail on the way in I feel like I missed it, unless I'm intentionally cheating the pocket or rolling the ball in.

One more thing - because of the cling effect (collision induced throw), at angles greater than about 15 degrees the cueball will grab the OB a bit and force it even more toward the rail. So even if you are aiming it perfectly to not touch the rail, you will need to offset this with proper speed, a bit of outside english, or hitting the ball a bit thinner. Personally I try to just be aware of it and keep my speed up with a nice rolling ball if at all possible, that minimizes the effect pretty well. Slow shots or stun shots are the worst, especially with common angles.

Scott
 
I have a simple answer, setup those common shots that you notice you rattle the most, and practice them, until you make them clean all the time at all speeds.


justadub said:
Let me preface this by stating this is going to be an extreme generalization. I fully realize that a completely accurate answer can't be had without observation...

That having been said, I rattle the G-D corner pockets far more than I should. It really frustrates me, due to the number of times it happens. It's not a matter of me hitting them too hard, specifically, because it happens at any and all speeds. Usually on cut shots down the rail, either side, and usually from half the table away or more. Not specifically extreme cut shots, either, and it can occur almost straight down the rail. Of course, it occurs more frequently on the better tables, and less frequently at the room where the pockets are, shall we say, "more generous". Still, I manage to rattle those, as well.

A good friend (and far better player) tried to explain to me that most of the time that this happens, I must be hitting the long rail point first, even slightly, to cause this to occur.

If it were a more occasional occurance, I'd chalk it up to any of the many mechanical issues that I'm trying to improve upon. But as it seems to happen so frequently lately, I'm wondering if this particular issue has a common flaw/solution. Undercutting these shots, perhaps?

Thoughts, suggestions? Again, its a generalized scenario, and I'm wondering if there is a general philosophy to apply about this malady? As always, thanks for your suggestions and help.
Click to expand...
 
Tony_in_MD said:
I have a simple answer, setup those common shots that you notice you rattle the most, and practice them, until you make them clean all the time at all speeds.
Click to expand...

Exactly-

furthermore you should really try to find out pocketspeed for yourself. I try to shoot almost every shot (if possible) with the same speed- about (speed 2 to 2,5). this helps a lot and is very underestimated. With this speed you can do almost every shot (a-l-m-o-s-t <---before a clown jumps in again to discuss about the word *almost*).

lg
Ingo
 
Tony and Ingo, I get that, and of course will try to do that, as best as I can.

My question was simply one of trying to determine if there was a way to make better use of that practice, if this is a common occurrence that has a predictable answer. "If *this* happens, *that* is usually the reason."

If that doesn't apply, fair enough. Just trying to figure out the little things, as they strike me. And asking you folks you have been so helpful to me right along.

Thanks.
 
It's hard to tell if it's you or the pockets just on speculation.

There are a few significant reasons why pockets may rattle balls back out at you. The pocket facings could be worn out and can be either concave on the inside or rounded at the points, or both. For some reason I've noticed that they don't seem to be replaced as often as they should. There are also soft, medium and hard facings.

Another problem is where the slate extends deeper into the pocket than normal and the ob is prevented from dropping when it's moving fast.

To remedy these problems, you can try shooting shots along the rail with a very loose back hand to insure that you are not grabbing the cue at impact, putting a little additional force on the ball. I have found that Balls rolling into the pocket as opposed to sliding will tend to stay in pockets like that more than balls struck with some force.

If you recognize a tough pocket and you need to use force (particularly along a rail) to get position on your next shot, then you should reconsider your choice.

If it's you and not the pocket, then the remedy is pretty much the same. Soften your grip and roll the ball into the pocket when you can. See if that helps.
 
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FranCrimi said:
It's hard to tell if it's you or the pockets just on speculation.

There are a few significant reasons why pockets may rattle balls back out at you. The pocket facings could be worn out and can be either concave on the inside or rounded at the points, or both. For some reason I've noticed that they don't seem to be replaced as often as they should. There are also soft, medium and hard facings.

Another problem is where the slate extends deeper into the pocket than normal and the ob is prevented from dropping when it's moving fast.

To remedy these problems, you can try shooting shots along the rail with a very loose back hand to insure that you are not grabbing the cue at impact, putting a little additional force on the ball. I have found that Balls rolling into the pocket as opposed to sliding will tend to stay in pockets like that more than balls struck with some force.

If you recognize a tough pocket and you need to use force (particularly along a rail) to get position on your next shot, then you should reconsider your choice.

If it's you and not the pocket, then the remedy is pretty much the same. Soften your grip and roll the ball into the pocket when you can. See if that helps.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Fran. That makes sense.

This is not solely a pocket issue, as it happens with me on different tables. Though it is more prevelant on the tables in my home room. Those tables roll iff toward the center of the table, away from the side rails, so we have to avoid slow rolling down the sides, esp at distance. Perhaps I've let that affect me such that I shoot those shots similarly regardless of where I'm playing.

Thanks again, Fran, I'll try to incorporate that, starting tonight. I appreciate the help.
 
First, in practice mark the center of the pocket. There is a single spot in each pocket that can be used as the center of the pocket for all shots. If you think about it for a little, I think you will figure it out if you don't know where it is already. Mark that spot with a donut or white chalk.

If you are pocketing the ball accurately and you are moving the cue ball to a desired position, your speed is already determined. If you are not playing position, it is a very bad thing. The entire shot must be planned, not just the ball entering the pocket.

Work with some kind of progressive practice drill. Consider the shot a miss if the object ball does not go pretty much right over the donut/chalk. How wide is "pretty much"? That's up to you. You will be able to tell when you miss the center by a lot even when making the ball.

Practice with different spins and speeds.
 
burt kinister in a video discussed a reason to miss (and rattle my addition) balls shot into the corner pocket
people aim according to burt for the "center of the pocket" which for some means the back center of the pocket as if you are viewning a straight in shot
when you you now aim a cut shot to the same aim point (subconciously)
you invariably hit the front part of the rail
so with some force the ball rattles
if you aim for the facing that you can see you can avoid this problem
dont know if this helps the op or not
wonder whether the instructors think this happens often
 
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bbb said:
... wonder what you instructors think about my interpretation of berts theory
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I think players need to understand where the real center of the pocket is. A hint: it's usually not the facing.
 
Bob Jewett said:
First, in practice mark the center of the pocket. There is a single spot in each pocket that can be used as the center of the pocket for all shots. If you think about it for a little, I think you will figure it out if you don't know where it is already. Mark that spot with a donut or white chalk.

If you are pocketing the ball accurately and you are moving the cue ball to a desired position, your speed is already determined. If you are not playing position, it is a very bad thing. The entire shot must be planned, not just the ball entering the pocket.

Work with some kind of progressive practice drill. Consider the shot a miss if the object ball does not go pretty much right over the donut/chalk. How wide is "pretty much"? That's up to you. You will be able to tell when you miss the center by a lot even when making the ball.

Practice with different spins and speeds.
Click to expand...

do you think the "center" is the same on all shots??
i like to think of the center of the opening of the pocket i can see from the angle im coming from
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think players need to understand where the real center of the pocket is. A hint: it's usually not the facing.
Click to expand...

i posted before i read your responce
so i guess aiming at the center of the opening i see is not good??
 
justadub said:
Tony and Ingo, I get that, and of course will try to do that, as best as I can.

My question was simply one of trying to determine if there was a way to make better use of that practice, if this is a common occurrence that has a predictable answer. "If *this* happens, *that* is usually the reason."

If that doesn't apply, fair enough. Just trying to figure out the little things, as they strike me. And asking you folks you have been so helpful to me right along.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

How well do you hit the CB? I would advise you focus virtually all your efforts on hitting the CB in the centre and with fluidity.

Hit the CB good and most other problems melt away.
 
TheThaiger said:
How well do you hit the CB? I would advise you focus virtually all your efforts on hitting the CB in the centre and with fluidity.

Hit the CB good and most other problems melt away.
Click to expand...

Of course the answer to that is "not well enough". And you're right, if/when I get that down better, I'll have fewer issues like these.

One of the challenges I face in this quest is real practice time versus playing time. You see, I'm one of those awful league players, so two nights a week I'm playing to win, not to focus on fundamentals. When I'm in an actual match, I can't be thinking about where my bridge is, or how loosely I'm gripping the cue, etc. That's for dedicated practice time, so that I can hopefully ingrained it to become natural. PSR and all that, right? (I have made some small progress in that area.)

On top of that, both teams have been very successful this session, staying in the playoffs, so we have no "off time". Right back into the next session. That's why we play, so I'm not complaining. Just more complications to manage. Oh, and the family likes to see me occasionally :p

So there is the rub. Getting that dedicated practice time. I do try to work on some of these things when I get a practice table on league nights, too. My goal is getting to the table on non league nights, by myself, to really work on these things. More frequently than i do now.

It's all good, and terribly addicting. Thanks for the suggestions.
 
bbb said:
i posted before i read your responce
so i guess aiming at the center of the opening i see is not good??
Click to expand...
Here is an article that explains where you should place your practice targets (donuts) and where you should try to shoot the ball during play.
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1997-04.pdf

The effective center of the pocket varies slightly with speed if you are shooting a ball that starts close to a cushion. Usually you should aim slightly farther from the cushion on such shots when you shoot hard.
 
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