Aiming Systems - The End Justifies the Means

[CJ Wiley]

they NEVER get any better at pitching....so guess what position is left?

PJ,

I've coached two(2) pitchers at the middle school level that were drafted by the majors . One made it to the show & the other played in the minors. I guarantee you neither one of them knows anything about the aerodynamics of their curve ball. Simple as that explanation is, they don't know it, but they can throw it and they could throw it before they got to college or high school. They were throwing it when they were 10 years old.

One might tell us that he really pushes his fingers through the threads on the ball just right of center. Is a pitching coach going say, 'well no, your fingers are not actually going through, what is actually happening is...

Do that & his curve ball could be gone forever.

What ever his perception is that gets him to throw it, that's what it is, reality or not.

The physics is there & it is undeniable. But so is his perception & it is real too.

Just 'food' for thought.
RJ

The pitching is a good analogy RJ....some of these players are trying to throw every type of pitch they can and understand how the physics of the pitch is accomplished...this leads to constantly stiking out, and they NEVER get any better at pitching....so guess what position is left?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

RJ:
One might tell us that he really pushes his fingers through the threads on the ball just right of center. Is a pitching coach going say, 'well no, your fingers are not actually going through, what is actually happening is...

Do that & his curve ball could be gone forever.

Will you teach the next 20 pitchers the same fantasy because it's what worked for one? Will you simply let them come up with their own fantasies? Or will you be a coach and teach them what's real?

I know what I'd do, and I know what I'd want a coach to teach me.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Will you teach the next 20 pitchers the same fantasy because it's what worked for one? Will you simply let them come up with their own fantasies? Or will you be a coach and teach them what's real?

I know what I'd do, and I know what I'd want a coach to teach me.

pj
chgo

PJ

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Or... I threw the curve in the dirt.

I would never 'coach' an untruth, but If the next 20 pitchers could all throw good curves & each one of them had a different perception of what it is they did to make it curve, a good pitching coach would not do anything that could mess it up for them.

Knowing the actual physics that causes the ball to curve is not that important. Knowing what to do to make the ball curve is the more important thing.

From your statements, I take it you would tell them the real reason the ball curves, change their minds eye & maybe ruin their ability to throw it. They would know why the ball curves but they might not be able to throw it anymore.

I don't think that would be a fair trade off.

Now if one can't throw it or is having trouble throwing it well, then yes a physics explanation would probably be in order.

I'm all for telling the truth, but sometmes silence is golden.

RJ

 

[Patrick Johnson]

RJ:
Knowing the actual physics that causes the ball to curve is not that important.

As a coach who will teach pitchers to throw curves, you'll have to be able to communicate to different players in different ways. Can you do that effectively without knowing how curves really work?

I think maybe you're getting hung up on the word "physics". We're talking about pool, not quantum mechanics. Try thinking of it in more common terms, like "how things work".

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

You have your hands full

PJ

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Or... I threw the curve in the dirt.

I would never 'coach' an untruth, but If the next 20 pitchers could all throw good curves & each one of them had a different perception of what it is they did to make it curve, a good pitching coach would not do anything that could mess it up for them.

Knowing the actual physics that causes the ball to curve is not that important. Knowing what to do to make the ball curve is the more important thing.

From your statements, I take it you would tell them the real reason the ball curves, change their minds eye & maybe ruin their ability to throw it. They would know why the ball curves but they might not be able to throw it anymore.

I don't think that would be a fair trade off.

Now if one can't throw it or is having trouble throwing it well, then yes a physics explanation would probably be in order.

I'm all for telling the truth, but sometmes silence is golden.

RJ

You have your hands full RJ...

 

[JB Cases]

Will you teach the next 20 pitchers the same fantasy because it's what worked for one? Will you simply let them come up with their own fantasies? Or will you be a coach and teach them what's real?

I know what I'd do, and I know what I'd want a coach to teach me.

pj
chgo

This is why it's great that the world is not linear. With most activities involving human endeavor you can tweak the inputs and end up with more or less the same results.

Coaches dream up hundreds of ways to convey to their athletes how to move their bodies. Almost none of those ways is a physics lecture.

In fact imitation is probably the single most important way to improve a physical act. Watch someone good and try to imitate them. That goes a long way towards mastery.

 

[CJ Wiley]

.I can help you play pool at a higher level, that's my only claim

I certainly agree that the type of twisting you describe could be used to shift the direction in which the shaft is pointing and, therefore, have a definite effect on the shot -- a way of applying spin, for example.

But hasn't CJ essentially told us that he and others can, in fact, rotate a cue on its long axis as it strikes the CB, without changing the direction the stick is pointing, and, by so doing, create or accentuate spin?

So I ask -- is that actually possible? Would the rotation of a cue stick around its center axis as it strikes dead straight through the center of a CB create enough friction to impart side spin to the CB (clockwise rotation for right spin, counter-clockwise rotation for left spin)?

I'm not claiming to be able to do any real magic or defy physics....I can help you play pool at a higher level, that's my only claim....and I believe my systems work fast too...if you don't get better using my "touch of inside" system I already said I'll give you a free lesson in Dallas... I receive no compensation, just maybe a thank you if I'm right and it costs me two hours if I'm wrong...is that so unfair? From experience I know this Game is made out to be complicated, I just want to give players a new, refreshing option....and there's not risk, I'm doing this for entertainment and to prove a point, but at the end of this month I'll be going a different direction...so don't be like the guy on the stairs >>>.....there's no time like the present to improve.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Coaches dream up hundreds of ways to convey to their athletes how to move their bodies. Almost none of those ways is a physics lecture.

And nothing said here is a "physics lecture". That's your way of trying to dismiss simple conversation about what makes physical sense and what doesn't - by playing the "academic elitist" card.

pj
chgo

 

[lfigueroa]

So does "deploy the manifestation of different scientific principles to your our advantage" really help your dancing?

Are you being purposely obtuse?

I guess I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just trying to make a funny, even though you didn't attach one of the many emoticons you love to use ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

PJ,

I've coached two(2) pitchers at the middle school level that were drafted by the majors . One made it to the show & the other played in the minors. I guarantee you neither one of them knows anything about the aerodynamics of their curve ball. Simple as that explanation is, they don't know it, but they can throw it and they could throw it before they got to college or high school. They were throwing it when they were 10 years old.

One might tell us that he really pushes his fingers through the threads on the ball just right of center. Is a pitching coach going say, 'well no, your fingers are not actually going through, what is actually happening is...

Do that & his curve ball could be gone forever.

What ever his perception is that gets him to throw it, that's what it is, reality or not.

The physics is there & it is undeniable. But so is his perception & it is real too.

Just 'food' for thought.
RJ

In any sport there are always naturals, but that is the small minority. What about the other 95% that aren't naturals? And even though a guy might have a great curve, when he gets to the show he's going to need another pitch or three and that's when he's going to get coached and all those bothersome issues of physics will be explained to him to, like the rest of us, he can do what does not come naturally.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Neil]

This is why it's great that the world is not linear. With most activities involving human endeavor you can tweak the inputs and end up with more or less the same results.

Coaches dream up hundreds of ways to convey to their athletes how to move their bodies. Almost none of those ways is a physics lecture.

In fact imitation is probably the single most important way to improve a physical act. Watch someone good and try to imitate them. That goes a long way towards mastery.

John, nothing here has been a "physics lecture". It's this simple- one can tell you to shoot the ob in the corner, and bring the cb two rails back to the center of the table. Now, you can sit there for hours and hours and maybe never figure out how to repeatedly do it. Or, you can have someone simply tell you to have the cb come into the first rail at about a 45º angle, and then be able to bring the cb to the center almost every time.

By knowing HOW things actually work, you can then take that info and apply it to many different circumstances. Without knowing how things work, you are stuck with learning just one shot, and as soon as the parameters of it change a little, you are lost.

You showed your training ball. I would LOVE to see any proponent of twisting the wrist technique show it on high speed film using your or Rempes training ball. As I also fall into the camp of that group just plain is not doing what they think they are doing. It may work for them, but why learn a complicated way to do something when a much easier way to accomplish the same thing is available? Basically, telling someone to reach around their back to scratch their elbow is not some big secret that only a few know. It's nothing more than spending hours and hours and hours to figure out how to scratch your elbow, coming up with a convoluted way of doing it, and then thinking it is the best way to do it. All because one never learned the easy way to do it in the first place.

 

[BasementDweller]

PJ

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Or... I threw the curve in the dirt.

I would never 'coach' an untruth, but If the next 20 pitchers could all throw good curves & each one of them had a different perception of what it is they did to make it curve, a good pitching coach would not do anything that could mess it up for them.

Knowing the actual physics that causes the ball to curve is not that important. Knowing what to do to make the ball curve is the more important thing.

From your statements, I take it you would tell them the real reason the ball curves, change their minds eye & maybe ruin their ability to throw it. They would know why the ball curves but they might not be able to throw it anymore.

I don't think that would be a fair trade off.

Now if one can't throw it or is having trouble throwing it well, then yes a physics explanation would probably be in order.

I'm all for telling the truth, but sometmes silence is golden.

RJ

Why not just stick with pool?

If a player believes that they get great draw action because they elevate the butt of their cue do you think they could benefit from knowing that the cue elevation isn't necessary to draw the cue ball? I think a player like this could really benefit from a true understanding of how draw works.

Using your line of thinking, you wouldn't want to let this player know that they really don't need to elevate their cue in such a manner because they may lose their ability to draw the cue ball. So, now they continue shooting with a jacked up cue. Could this technique work for them in the long run - I suppose it's possible but why would anybody want to incorporate this into their game if it's not necessary?

Later on, this same player starts believing that the only way to put english on the ball is by swiping at it, so they then incorporate a swiping technique into their game. For some reason or another, they also love to jump up on each and every shot because they've always done it like that and it never slowed them down any. I could go on and on with examples like this. All you need to do is go to a busy league night just about anywhere in the U.S., and you could see guys and gals incorporating all kinds of "interesting" techniques in their games.

Us pool players have a tendency to build layer upon layer upon layer of worthless and sometimes contradictory techniques. It can be quite comical to watch at times. I include myself in this.

My point is, a lot of stuff pool players believe is crap. I read somewhere recently, it may have even been here on AZ but I don't recall, anyway, someone was quoting their beloved grandmother, who told them "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out."



P.S. I have enjoyed many of your posts RJ. Keep them coming.

 

[JB Cases]

John, nothing here has been a "physics lecture". It's this simple- one can tell you to shoot the ob in the corner, and bring the cb two rails back to the center of the table. Now, you can sit there for hours and hours and maybe never figure out how to repeatedly do it. Or, you can have someone simply tell you to have the cb come into the first rail at about a 45º angle, and then be able to bring the cb to the center almost every time.

By knowing HOW things actually work, you can then take that info and apply it to many different circumstances. Without knowing how things work, you are stuck with learning just one shot, and as soon as the parameters of it change a little, you are lost.

You showed your training ball. I would LOVE to see any proponent of twisting the wrist technique show it on high speed film using your or Rempes training ball. As I also fall into the camp of that group just plain is not doing what they think they are doing. It may work for them, but why learn a complicated way to do something when a much easier way to accomplish the same thing is available? Basically, telling someone to reach around their back to scratch their elbow is not some big secret that only a few know. It's nothing more than spending hours and hours and hours to figure out how to scratch your elbow, coming up with a convoluted way of doing it, and then thinking it is the best way to do it. All because one never learned the easy way to do it in the first place.

Not disagreeing with you Neil. I have learned a lot from Dave's videos. The point I want to make though is that sometimes a pro is doing their best to explain a method or technique that they have found works great and even though one can dispute the physics of it one can't dispute the results.

I am just in the camp that firmly believes that pros have insight that we amateurs don't have. Not magic knowledge but instead simply a far greater range of experience than most of us amateurs have. So why should we tear these guys apart when they try to help us?

Should I argue with Buddy Hall or Jose Parica about how to hit a ball? I don't think so unless I was at their level. I have been fortunate enough to spend time with Rafael Martinez, Jose Parica, Danny Medina, Rodney Morris, and other pros and I can tell you that to a man they have all showed me things that aren't found in books. Things that aren't found in Dr. Dave's material. Does that invalidate those methods? Not to me it doesn't.

And frankly, I'd bet on the pros against just about everyone here in both shotmaking contests, run out contests, and position play contests. If they haven't figured out the easy way to do these things then no one can.

 

[decent dennis]

Are you being purposely obtuse?

I guess I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just trying to make a funny, even though you didn't attach one of the many emoticons you love to use ;-)

Lou Figueroa

Lou, your not "being the ball" again.

 

[dr_dave]

I would still like to hear about the types of shots for which you or others think the technique is appropriate, helpful, or even necessary. Maybe we can learn from the examples and better understand what (if any) benefits the technique might be offering to the people who use it effectively.

How about every shot that requires english?

While the academics sweat squirt, fhe, bhe, and whatever other conscious adjustments including different bridge placements/pivot points, etc, some players automate by flipping their wrist.

Spidey,

I know that some people use wrist motion to apply English (even though I "don't get out much"). I also know that they can do so effectively, with enough consistent practice. Wrist flicking or twisting during the stroke is a form of stroke swoop, where the cue is lined up center-ball (or closer to center ball than the desired final tip position), and the cue is veered during the stroke with sideways wrist or arm motion. There are both advantages and disadvantages to this approach. I certainly wouldn't call this a "unique" or "advanced" technique that only top players (the kind that "get out" and aren't influenced by "academics") can master.

Other approaches to applying English, that also might be considered "unique" and "advanced," (from my stroke swoop resource page) include:

1.) Align the cue in the required direction (compensating for squirt, swerve, and throw intuitively) with the tip off center to apply the exact amount of English desired, and then use a straight stroke.

2.) Align the cue at the center of the cue ball along the desired aiming line (with the aim corrected for throw, where appropriate) at the center of the cue ball, and then use BHE or FHE or some other method to pivot the cue before the stroke to compensate for squirt and swerve (AKA "net cue ball deflection"), and then stroke straight along this new alignment.​

I think most (but not all) top players use technique "1." Technique "2" is good for people who don't yet have enough experience-based intuition to adjust for squirt and swerve by "feel."

As described on my stroke swoop resource page:

One possible advantage of the stroke-swoop method is that the initial center-ball alignment might be more comfortable for some people. With the alternative approaches above (1 and 2), the off-center and off-aiming-line alignment can be disconcerting, because to compensate for squirt, the cue will generally not be pointing in the desired direction of the shot. However, it can be difficult to be consistent with a swooping stroke (e.g., with the exact amount of English applied, or with avoiding a miscue when attempting to apply maximum English). Most people will be more consistent and accurate (with actual tip contact point) with a straight stroke as compared to a swooping stroke; although, with enough consistent practice, any technique can be mastered. Some people (including many top players) can be quite effective with a swooping stroke.​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

JB Cases:
...sometimes a pro is doing their best to explain a method or technique that they have found works great and even though one can dispute the physics of it one can't dispute the results.

If by "the results" you mean the pro's accomplishments as a pool player, that's a red herring. Many pros have wrong ideas about how things work (Sigel and throw?) - they became pros in spite of that, not because of it.

If you mean the results that are supposed to be caused by the disputed "physics", then they certainly can (and should) be disputed, because if the cause is wrong then the results don't follow from it.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

John, nothing here has been a "physics lecture". It's this simple- one can tell you to shoot the ob in the corner, and bring the cb two rails back to the center of the table. Now, you can sit there for hours and hours and maybe never figure out how to repeatedly do it. Or, you can have someone simply tell you to have the cb come into the first rail at about a 45º angle, and then be able to bring the cb to the center almost every time.

By knowing HOW things actually work, you can then take that info and apply it to many different circumstances. Without knowing how things work, you are stuck with learning just one shot, and as soon as the parameters of it change a little, you are lost.

Not disagreeing with you Neil. I have learned a lot from Dave's videos.

In case people haven't seen this video, here's the link:

45-degree rule for center-table position and routes​

This "technique" is definitely a pool "gem" and useful "secret."

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeyA]

There are lots of different ways to accomplish the same thing.

Learning how to "jack up" or elevate your cue and draw your cue ball is a basic fundamental that you had better know how to do and do well or you will be left sitting in your chair.

All of these "interesting" (and valuable) techniques have merit and an accomplished player will know how and be able to execute all of the techniques and nuances of each method.

In recent months I have been teaching myself how to draw the cue ball when it is against the rail and elevating the cue is the only way to do draw the cue ball.

There's nothing wrong with using a level cue for draw but it is rare when a truly level cue is used for draw.

The attempt to have your cue as level as possible is often, a good thing, but not always, because most times, a truly level cue just isn't possible and sometimes something else is needed.

 

[Ratta]

To discuss about wrist action imo doesn t make sense. Of course there are players who re able to use it *naturally* and still able to get repeatable results. But in my opinion it s usually just another additional thing to cause a problem (to become a straight repeatable stroke).

 

[Living Legend]

my opinion is a pro level player has such a high control and understanding over his stroke, cue ball, table and shot that they can do magical things on a pool table.