Were you as Diogenes, you would be in search of an honest man.
Pulled or Pushed
- Thread starter One Pocket John
- Start date
Were you as Diogenes, you would be in search of an honest man.
I have never heard of pushing or pulling when referring to the stroke. To me a push is simply when you start up against the object from behind and you attempt to move it away from you. A pull is when you start in front of the object and attempt to move it towards you. Since you cannot physically pull a ball towards you legally in all billiard games the only motion is pushing the cue towards the ball it seems to me. Doesn't matter how much you stroke before you hit the ball it's all a pushing motion.
Not a physiologist.......
Not a physiologist.......
When the hand is pronated, it "quiets" the biceps. Supinate your hand and your bicep contracts--you can feel it with one hand while you flex your elbow. Now pronate your hand and the bicep relaxes and "disappears" beneath your hand. When working a complete range of muscles, for example, changing from biceps curls to "fist curls", the brachialis is put into play.
In other words, with the arm hanging down and the fist of the hand somewhat pronated to hold the cue stick in the typical range of motion, the stroke is triceps/backstroke and mostly brachialis/forward stroke, not biceps/forward stroke. Do a biceps curl while feeling the upper arm with the other hand (no need for a weight to be held) and then turn the fist up as for the pool stroke and see the difference.
Hi, Fran:
It's not the most resolute video, but there are times when Greenleaf strokes the way most do and times when he sharply pronates his hand on the follow through like a wrist flip--it looks like he's catching the cue and the wrap moves through his stroke hand a bit.
Some have said that Greenleaf did it once in a while and Mosconi also. Hal Houle gave anecdotal evidence as I wrote, so, whatever. It's a kind of cool technique/trick technique but about as important as a hill of beans.
I've addressed your ideas regarding golf (which I also teach) on another thread if you'd like to check it out.
Thanks much.
You linked to the video as your evidence. There was no evidence of that cue releasing in that video.
I was there when it happened!
To me it's like trusting in God vs. Atheism or Obama vs. Romney, or more to the point, serving on a jury and deciding guilt or innocence having not been present. There's likely some evidence for both sides and you have to make a choice based on what appears to be conflicting evidence on the surface.
You may have a more resolute screen than me and a bigger monitor, I found the video and the strokes rather hard to discern accurately--especially since Greenleaf already slips back on his backstroke already. On a couple of strokes, it looks like it to me.
Mr. Jewett asked for video and I'd love to see more videos of Mr. Greenleaf if anyone has them at hand... but you're right, I should have said this YouTube video looks like he does it to my eyes. Then again, I'm wearing glasses sometimes at the pool table these days.
...You are making a reasonable point and it depends in part on what you think about Mr. Houle who is known for telling the occasional apocryphal story. I saw a similar thread recently with supporters and detractors saying Mosconi picked up the same technique but on occasional shots. I'd heard that before I spoke to H.H. and it made sense to me--that if Mosconi did it, Greenleaf did it and Mosconi grabbed it from him. Maybe when Ralph drank and played it made an already loose grip and stroke looser. :grin-square:
I appreciate your keeping me honest here at the forums and checking on my evidence. Thanks.
Me too. Diogenes couldn't run ten balls. Plato was good at One Pocket. Aristotle was sweating them both. Homer used an Odyssey cue and table.
Yeah, but Zeno was playing jam up, which is really why Diogenes walked out.
I assume you mean the brachialis anticus, a muscle on the lower part of the upper arm sort of "under" the biceps. More info is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachialis_muscle including a picture.When the hand is pronated, it "quiets" the biceps. Supinate your hand and your bicep contracts--you can feel it with one hand while you flex your elbow. Now pronate your hand and the bicep relaxes and "disappears" beneath your hand. When working a complete range of muscles, for example, changing from biceps curls to "fist curls", the brachialis is put into play.
In other words, with the arm hanging down and the fist of the hand somewhat pronated to hold the cue stick in the typical range of motion, the stroke is triceps/backstroke and mostly brachialis/forward stroke, not biceps/forward stroke. Do a biceps curl while feeling the upper arm with the other hand (no need for a weight to be held) and then turn the fist up as for the pool stroke and see the difference.
The similar article on the biceps says in part:
Contrary to popular belief, the biceps brachii is not the most powerful flexor of the forearm, a role which actually belongs to the deeper brachialis muscle. The biceps brachii functions primarily as a powerful supinator of the forearm (turns the palm upwards).
Thanks for the info. I will never again blame my biceps for my lousy stroke.
I remember. Diogenes would only take cash on the barrelhead. Zeno had it on a string. Straight as an arrow on every game ball. Then he kicked three rails for the 8-ball and I was thinking, "Man, that cue ball of Zeno's is never going to hit that target."
Anyway...
Definitely not an instructor, nor will I ever be. But I agree with Fran. Pendulum stroke pulls the cue through the ball, piston stroke pushes it.
Which is easier? Depends on the stroker, I guess. For me, pushing the cue through the CB is way more accurate and gets me through the ball a lot easier than the pendulum stroke.
Definitely not an instructor, nor will I ever be. But I agree with Fran. Pendulum stroke pulls the cue through the ball, piston stroke pushes it.
Which is easier? Depends on the stroker, I guess. For me, pushing the cue through the CB is way more accurate and gets me through the ball a lot easier than the pendulum stroke.
The amount of hash that you sling is astounding.
Hi, Fran:
I caught your drift the first time--and the second and third times you mentioned you found the video unconvincing. I answered you courteously and respectfully and will continue to do so.
I am not denying the Holocaust or the sphericity of the Earth. I am saying I see a grainy, jerky video in very poor composition on YouTube a little differently than you do. It looks to me like the cue is slung forward a tiny bit on some of the shots.
Please understand I'm trying to pour water and not gasoline on this situation between you and me. What do you want from me? I'll make it happen if I can.
Heh-heh. You've got a great stroke and a great mind.
I first wondered about this when I saw a good player many years ago with really beefy biceps and wondered how it didn't hamper his stroke.
Back to One Pocket John's coach and mine. He always recommended strengthening the wrist. Although he never talked about where this thread has gone.
And Matt there may have been one of those shots where the cue possibly moved a fraction of an inch. What did strike me is the variety of strokes in the clip. But in all the strokes his beginning grip position was placed for a slip stroke although most shots there was no slip.
And by the way I do toss a cue now and again on certain shots.
And Matt there may have been one of those shots where the cue possibly moved a fraction of an inch. What did strike me is the variety of strokes in the clip. But in all the strokes his beginning grip position was placed for a slip stroke although most shots there was no slip.
And by the way I do toss a cue now and again on certain shots.
I'll say what I have to say as many times as I have to. Just keep on writing.
Your argument about hand pronation being evidence of a release is utter nonsense. It sounds like your parroting someone without understanding what it was they were saying. You couldn't possibly have experimented with it and come to that conclusion. I studied the release for over 3 years and still use it on certain shots. You haven't got a clue what it's all about.
I suggest that you learn how to play before suggesting that you know what you're talking about.
Look Matt, I don't care if you're a beginner teacher or a beginner player. Many people post here who are inexperienced, but they don't pretend that they're experts.
Last edited:
the biceps just "get in the way" and the cue is pushed with the triceps.
Biceps pull and Triceps push....the bench press is an exercise that uses the triceps for example.....Curls are using your biceps....I USED to think that you used your biceps and basically curled the cue, then I strengthened my biceps and my stroke got weaker and worse.
Then I stopped exercising my biceps (and will never strengthen them again) and started doing backwards push ups against the pool table, this did wonders for my stroke.
It's an illusion in my opinion and even though it looks like you're "curling the cue" you're actually pushing it forward with your triceps....I later talked to Jennifer Barretta about it , who is a physical trainer and she agreed that the biceps just "get in the way" and the cue is pushed with the triceps.
All I know is it works and I'm glad I found out because I've messed around with curls before and it hurt me game and I really didn't understand why at the time. This is just from my experience and may not be true for all players..... 'The Game is the Teacher'
Biceps pull and Triceps push....the bench press is an exercise that uses the triceps for example.....Curls are using your biceps....I USED to think that you used your biceps and basically curled the cue, then I strengthened my biceps and my stroke got weaker and worse.
Then I stopped exercising my biceps (and will never strengthen them again) and started doing backwards push ups against the pool table, this did wonders for my stroke.
It's an illusion in my opinion and even though it looks like you're "curling the cue" you're actually pushing it forward with your triceps....I later talked to Jennifer Barretta about it , who is a physical trainer and she agreed that the biceps just "get in the way" and the cue is pushed with the triceps.
All I know is it works and I'm glad I found out because I've messed around with curls before and it hurt me game and I really didn't understand why at the time. This is just from my experience and may not be true for all players..... 'The Game is the Teacher'
If you are referring to the forward stroke, I think this is completely wrong. Please read through the Wikipedia articles, which are amazingly clear and specific and see if you don't agree. I think that either there was a miscommunication or an error.
WOW, just when I thought this thread might sail off into the sunset.
CJ, I do have your DVD and have watched it many times. I do use your grip because it locks the wrist from any side ways movement. Thanks.
I cant wait to see the videos you will be doing for AZB.
I, as I'm sure others do, really appreciate a pro pool player try to help those of us that really want to learn as much as possible.
Thank you
John
Last edited: