Pulled or Pushed

[Bob Jewett]

... Do you think you're the ONLY person who knows anything about sports kinesiology? ...

My goodness, no! I know more or less nothing about sports kinesiology or how it is really studied. When I said "no one here" I was including myself, since I am someone here. I regret that I gave a different impression. In this matter, I'm at least as ignorant as the rest of us.

Do you know someone here who has worked in or formally studied the field?

 

[MOJOE]

Mr. Jewett is a class act. He does more for this sport than most would consider with no desire to be acknowledged as it seems.

Thanks for your contributions Bob.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Greenleaf Highlights

Mr. Greenleaf takes slip strokes with the hand coming back on the backstroke but there are a number of shots where it looks like he is getting still more cue through his hand on the forward stroke as well...

Matt,

Thanks.

I had not seen that before. Quite an elbow drop on him there & quite a stick throw stroke at the end too, but I believe it was someone other than Mr. Greenleaf doing it.

Regards,
RJ

 

[Patrick Johnson]

For most people "push" and "pull" are defined by where you are and where the object is and which way you want to move the object.

Yes, if "you" are the location where force is applied, the mass is pulled toward or pushed away from you.

Problem is there's more than one location where force is applied, so there's more than one answer.

The force applied to the cue by the hand is both pushing and pulling (mass in front of and behind the grip).

The force applied to the forearm by the biceps and triceps is pulling.

pj <- damned gnats everywhere!
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

It's all about Einstein's Theory of Relativity.

From the gnats point of view, we're all intellectual giants...or not.

 

[whammo57]

Is the cue stick pulled thru the stroke or pushed thru the stroke?

My instructor asked me once, long ago, "is it easier to push the cue or to pull the cue forward". Tough question.

In my mind if I am going to force something forward, like a cue ball, I would want to push the stick rather tha pull the stick forward. But pushing involves muscles to tense which can be a problem.

Had to ask. :smile:

John

That sounds like a Vulcan mind worm..........

Your opponent is down and about to shoot and you ask him..... "do you pull the stick or push the stick when you shoot???"

LOL


My point is ............ why do you have to dissect every aspect of pool??? If you think this will help you shoot better.... well........ it won't.

Stop over thinking this BS and practice.

Kim

 

[bbb]

do you think this thread will help players from now until forever??
just askin
do you think this thread is mental masturbation because noone has posted a better question to answer
just askin
im not an instructor so i may be missing the teaching point

That sounds like a Vulcan mind worm..........

Your opponent is down and about to shoot and you ask him..... "do you pull the stick or push the stick when you shoot???"

LOL
My point is ............ why do you have to dissect every aspect of pool??? If you think this will help you shoot better.... well........ it won't.
Stop over thinking this BS and practice.

Kim

i do think that there are players out there (me included) who have to understand whats going on to DO IT
i also think this group of us will probably always be at best b+ or maybe a-
at the very best
most of the c's and b's that are trying to improve
and unfortunately dont have the god given talent to be a pro
are the ones that fuss over this stuff

the naturals just
PUT THE BALL IN THE HOLE
im not an instructor so take my comments for what they are worth

 

[sfleinen]

Folks:

Just FYI, in post #78, I've already said my piece (and peace) concerning the "side road" diversion of push vs pull. Initially, I thought it was just straining at gnats (as Bob puts it), but enough folks jumped in with interest, that obviously the topic was further explored. These things sometimes happen in open discussion.

Me personally? Other than the "viewpoint exploration" aspect of it, it makes no difference in how you play pool -- just that you do, and do well. Hopefully the discussion has folks take a look at *what* they're doing "back there," and good things come of it.

I'm done with the push vs pull thing, and this will be my last reply on this topic.

Best regards, and hit 'em well,
-Sean

 

[One Pocket John]

For my own personal reasons I am happy that I started this thread.

A ton of useful information for anyone wanting to learn or "C" or "B" players wanting to improve.

You know when your trying to relearn the fundementals its information like what has been given that really helps guys.....and gal.

Some of the best in the business have given their opinions, its now up to the student to select and practice the advice given.

Whether you pull, pull then push or push the cue thru the entire stoke you will be the judge of works for you.

Thanks for everyones comments you all have helped me tremendously (spelling ?) on the road to recovery. (getting my stroke back)

John :grin:

 

[bbb]

For my own personal reasons I am happy that I started this thread.

A ton of useful information for anyone wanting to learn or "C" or "B" players wanting to improve.

You know when your trying to relearn the fundementals its information like what has been given that really helps guys.....and gal.

Some of the best in the business have given their opinions, its now up to the student to select and practice the advice given.

Whether you pull, pull then push or push the cue thru the entire stoke you will be the judge of works for you.

Thanks for everyones comments you all have helped me tremendously (spelling ?) on the road to recovery. (getting my stroke back)

John :grin:

john
thanks for the thread
wish you great pool playing
:thumbup:
larry (bbb)

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I do see some of the "standard" slip stroke where the hand comes back on the grip on the final backstroke for example 2:45, 4:04 and 6:00. I see no evidence of the far more complicated action you describe of the stick being thrown forward while the hand lets go of it on the forward stroke. Without evidence, it's really, really hard to believe.

I understand. The video is not high definition by any means. We have only anecodotal evidence from a few of his contemporaries. After hearing he used the technique I watched the video and it just looks like it to me on some of the strokes, like where Greenleaf pronates his shooting hand sharply on his follow-through.

It's a neat action, though, mostly for trick shots. You can get a lot of extra juice on the ball. Per Issac Newton's 1st, it seems to me the ultimate expression of "send the cue straight without interfering with its motion and ultra-straight it remains in motion..."

Thank you and I agree with our poster who points out your many and sustained contributions to the sport.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Hi, Kim:

You haven't noticed that most of the threads on this forum involve overthinking?

It's important to practice but more important to practice using correct principles--including the techniques that "do it" for you. This thread could be an eye opener for piston strokes who ought to pendulum or even vice versa...

 

[swest]

This discussion reminds me of a story about Diogenes who, upon hearing Zeno describe the Dichotomy paradox and the seeming impossibility of motion, got up and walked out of the room.

 

[CJ Wiley]

But to fully utilize this you must get the cue out in front of you from the start

In both cases your hands are ahead of the weight of the cart. I would call both cases pulling the weight.

Keeping the stoke OUT IN FRONT of you is important. Hank Haney and I used to talk about this in golf as well. Many beginners in golf will get the club "behind them" and it leads to never playing well.

I've done a lot of traing for pool through the years and one thing I CAN NOT exercise is my Biceps. These are the "Pulling" muscles and in the pool stroke they just GET IN THE WAY. The Triceps are what is used in generating the forward thrust of the cue.

But to fully utilize this you must get the cue out in front of you from the start. You can experience this by putting the cue out in front of you, pushing your arms out, THEN get down on the cue ball.
You'll see the pros do this if you know what to look for.

Keeping the stroke out in front of the body is something I don't believe is talked about very much, but I show how to do this in detail in my new DVD that's coming out soon. It's difficult to communicate this in writing. Maybe I'll make a short video clip of it and include it when I start posting them on AZBILLIARDS at the end of the month.

The pause at the end of the Backstroke is also important too. It's the transition between what's going back to what's going forward.

 

[3kushn]

I do see some of the "standard" slip stroke where the hand comes back on the grip on the final backstroke for example 2:45, 4:04 and 6:00. I see no evidence of the far more complicated action you describe of the stick being thrown forward while the hand lets go of it on the forward stroke. Without evidence, it's really, really hard to believe.

I couldn't catch a toss either. Maybe at the end when he's jumping the ball out of the rack but as usual at the critical moment his hand leaves the scene.

The most aggravating thing in pool video. Never seeing the stroke.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

This discussion reminds me of a story about Diogenes who, upon hearing Zeno describe the Dichotomy paradox and the seeming impossibility of motion, got up and walked out of the room.

I feel more like Diogenes wandering the world looking for wisdom.

 

[FranCrimi]

I couldn't catch a toss either. Maybe at the end when he's jumping the ball out of the rack but as usual at the critical moment his hand leaves the scene.

The most aggravating thing in pool video. Never seeing the stroke.

There was no evidence at all in that video of Greenleaf releasing the cue in the forward motion. There was nothing that even remotely resembled it. It's just another case of more BS flying around here.

 

[Bob Jewett]

. The Triceps are what is used in generating the forward thrust of the cue. ...

According to every discussion I've seen so far, it is the biceps which gives the stroke its power by contracting and bringing the forearm forward. Is that wrong?

 

[sfleinen]

According to every discussion I've seen so far, it is the biceps which gives the stroke its power by contracting and bringing the forearm forward. Is that wrong?

Bob:

Good point. I think what CJ is referring to, is the unorthodox grip he uses on the cue, which resembles a tennis racquet grip. Or, better yet -- the grip one would use on a long-handled shovel (the type of shovel that doesn't have a T-bar or "loop" type of grip, but rather just a long broomstick-type handle). In this case, when you stab the shovel into a mound of dirt in front of you, you would be mainly extending your arm -- using mostly your triceps, right?

-Sean

 

[One Pocket John]

Keeping the stoke OUT IN FRONT of you is important. Hank Haney and I used to talk about this in golf as well. Many beginners in golf will get the club "behind them" and it leads to never playing well.

I've done a lot of traing for pool through the years and one thing I CAN NOT exercise is my Biceps. These are the "Pulling" muscles and in the pool stroke they just GET IN THE WAY. The Triceps are what is used in generating the forward thrust of the cue.

But to fully utilize this you must get the cue out in front of you from the start. You can experience this by putting the cue out in front of you, pushing your arms out, THEN get down on the cue ball.
You'll see the pros do this if you know what to look for.

Keeping the stroke out in front of the body is something I don't believe is talked about very much, but I show how to do this in detail in my new DVD that's coming out soon. It's difficult to communicate this in writing. Maybe I'll make a short video clip of it and include it when I start posting them on AZBILLIARDS at the end of the month.

The pause at the end of the Backstroke is also important too. It's the transition between what's going back to what's going forward.

Everything in bold type............I dont understand.

CJ, could you please explain the above to me. I'm lost

Thanks CJ

John