Pool has a "FATAL FLAW"

[CJ Wiley]

Players MUST be put in a position to draw the Game into the public eye

I appreciate your metaphor but I respectfully disagree.

You speak as though pool "always was and always will be" (your Steak reference). That is just not the case. The game is not the teacher. People devised this game and it is anything anybody wants it to be. It is the people's tool. Billiards has been in a state of evolution for 150 years. That evolution has never moved quicker than the last 20 years. Evolution is not going to stop now. It is survival of the fittest (or become extinct).

Pocket Billiards is in trouble. I, for one, think that pool has evolved itself into a corner. The world has changed. The world's favorite sports and recreation have become highly interactive. Pool needs to look in this direction. (Look at the success of the team concept.)

I read over and over "If only someone would promote this game properly, start youth programs, run events geared to the less skilled player." I have tons of experience here. The public has spoken. They say "We have tried your game and there is other more fun stuff to do. We are going to do something else."

Evolution needs to happen.

(Please note: I am speaking about Pocket Billiards and not miniature-pool played at the corner bar.)

Speaking in terms of the "Game" having enough draw to create a loyal viewing audience is never going to happen. The reason I can say the with such certainly is it doesn't happen in any other sport or game. Football, Basketball, Wrestling, Hockey, Boxing and Golf have all had their periods of poor ratings. The common denominator that always saved them was PEOPLE (Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Larry B., Mike T., Jimmy C. John M., IMG Group, Don King, Barry Bonds, etc.).

Without changing or tinkering with the Game its self. Pool in the early to mid 90s was getting 1 ratings (one million households) up against just about any other sport, even the super bowl pool did well. (I played a match in front of 2.8 Million Viewers).

This was the time that professional marketing agencies, professional acting coaches, and professional TV producers should have been brought into the picture. However, IT DID NOT HAPPEN and the ones "in control" thought they could do it themselves without the help of professional sources of talent. This failed then and it's failing now. It's NEVER been the Game's fault it's not received positive publicity and been popular (since The Color of Money).

I'll debate that with ANYBODY in a public forum. I know the inside story of what happened in those "key years" and it's not complicated what has to happen to turn this situation around. And like the saying goes "keep dong the same thing and you'll keep getting the same results". This is especially true and it's also a sign of the insanity of the methodology.

FIRST there must be an emotional attachment generated for the Players before the game will catch on. People lead the Games, the Games DO NOT lead the people. It's been true for other sports/games and it's true for Pocket Billiards.

I have been on the inside of Nascar, PGA, and NBA through agents, players, coaches and marketing experts and they all say the same thing. "Develop an emotional attachment between the players and the public and their fans enthusiastically watch them play".

That's the "filet mignon" of my previous metaphor and the hamburger is what we've done instead (the past 20 years). The good news is we have the ability to change, if we face reality and stop trying to make the cart draw the horse. The Professional Players MUST be put in a position to draw the Game into the public eye. There is no other way. imho CLICK TO SEE SOME CHARACTERS IN POOL

 

[Paul Schofield]

FIRST there must be an emotional attachment generated for the Players before the game will catch on. CLICK TO SEE SOME CHARACTERS IN POOL

Honestly, how do you think this happens? Our current rules and games do not have opportunities for camaraderie or to develop a relationship with an opponent or the public. Our games are sterile and non-interactive. The structure of the games and the competition need to show the character and personalities of the competitors.

As solitaire as golf is, there are many natural opportunities between shots for human interaction. They have done a great job of humanizing and making golf a very social activity.

I will say it again: I run lots of balls while you sit statue like does not work in 2012. There is other more fun stuff to watch and to do.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Game will ultimately triumph, I sincerely believe that. 'The Game is the Teacher

Honestly, how do you think this happens? Our current rules and games do not have opportunities for camaraderie or to develop a relationship with an opponent or the public. Our games are sterile and non-interactive. The structure of the games and the competition need to show the character and personalities of the competitors.

As solitaire as golf is, there are many natural opportunities between shots for human interaction. They have done a great job of humanizing and making golf a very social activity.

I will say it again: I run lots of balls while you sit statue like does not work in 2012. There is other more fun stuff to watch and to do.

Of course this will happen...no one has tried anything different in many years except for the Mosconi Cup and it's the best thing on TV. I stepped away from pool for 13 years and when I came back it was worse than it was in the mid 90's. Everything else has changed, but pool remains the same, how ironic, and how unfortunate for the players involved.

Blaming the Pro's for not behaving "properly" is like blaming the symphony for not playing well without the Director or blaming the Actors for not acting well without the Director.....the PLayers NEED A DIRECTOR.

Some people blame the Players only because they're on center stage, in the public eye and a likely target for criticism (while critics sit behind their computer screens)....and that is not how you get positive results...they must be managed and directed or they act just like anyone else would be in their position...frustrated about not getting the proper management and direction.

I know everyone's upset about this new Pro Tour, but at least they're trying to do the right thing (it may be their only choice right now). I'm amazed they've held up this long without any real help in organization, staffing, or planning. They're just treading water until the "ship comes in" and I have a feeling it WILL come in. The Game will ultimately triumph, I sincerely believe that. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Paul Schofield]

Blaming the Pro's for not behaving "properly" is like blaming the symphony for not playing well without the Director or blaming the Actors for not acting well without the Director.....the PLayers NEED A DIRECTOR.

Some people blame the Players only because they're on center stage, in the public eye and a likely target for criticism (while critics sit behind their computer screens)....and that is not how you get positive results...they must be managed and directed or they act just like anyone else would be in their position...frustrated about not getting the proper management and direction.

I don't know where this all came from. I can't find a post on this thread that blames the pros for anything. I certainly don't. I am pointing my finger squarely at the game. The game has to be right for everything to fall into place.

I just keep doing what I do. That is to try to keep pocket billiards fresh and alive in my home town. I consider and experiment with most every new idea I see and read about (and can think up).

 

[realkingcobra]

There IS a way to straighten pool out, not one of you have touched on it as of yet, and what I know, I'm not saying right now

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Game is Already Perfect, it's up to US to uncover that Perfection

I don't know where this all came from. I can't find a post on this thread that blames the pros for anything. I certainly don't. I am pointing my finger squarely at the game. The game has to be right for everything to fall into place.

It's easy to say The Game has a "Fatal Flaw", and that's just an opinion. CLICK to Hear About Other Sports "Changes"
I believe that Game is Perfect. It's not like golf, baseball, or football where you get the same amount of innings, holes, or downs. It's like BOXING where you know you have to perform or you may get knocked out. Pocket Billiards is the "Master Game" and we want to help The Game be the Best it can be. the Game doesn't want "gimmick cues" or equipment, it just wants us to make the rules so it's as challenging and skillful as possible, then The Game wants us to hire REAL PROFESSIONALS to work on the advertising and marketing of the Game ON TV. It's like the old saying "out of sight, out of mind", without an entertaining pool show on TV the Game will continue to struggle.....and The Game doesn't deserve to struggle, it deserves the same opportunity as other games/sports have enjoyed.....the Game is PERFECT, and it's up to us to appreciate and showcase that perfection. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[GrandTourPromo]

What Grand Tour Promotions has to offer...

I don't know where this all came from. I can't find a post on this thread that blames the pros for anything. I certainly don't. I am pointing my finger squarely at the game. The game has to be right for everything to fall into place.

It's easy to say The Game has a "Fatal Flaw", and that's just an opinion. CLICK to Hear About Other Sports "Changes"
I believe that Game is Perfect. It's not like golf, baseball, or football where you get the same amount of innings, holes, or downs. It's like BOXING where you know you have to perform or you may get knocked out.(...).the Game is PERFECT, and it's up to us to appreciate and showcase that perfection. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I agree with CJ here when he states that 'the Game is PERFECT.' I agree with Paul's concern that something needs to change.

I propose that anyone seeking a solution to this problem just consider the contribution that Grand Tour Promotions is offering.

Here's a link to our homepage.
https://sites.google.com/site/grandtourpromotions/

I won't describe our contribution ITT (I encourage you to follow the link above.)

But I will subscribe to this thread to see what the followers of this thread have to say in response. If anyone has any questions/comments, either in support or otherwise, please know they won't be ignored.

Robert Bowman, President
Grand Tour Promotions

 

[realkingcobra]

Wha if

there was a 10 ball tournament held which was limited to 64 Professional players only, which was single elimination, but the pay scale was 64-33 $500 each, 32-17 $1,000 each, 16-9 $2,000 each, 8-5 $4,000 each, 4-3 $8,000 each, 2nd paid $16,000, and first place paid $32,000, total pay out being $128,000

And what if everyone who wanted to play in this tournament was required to to take a skill level test in which ONLY the top 64 scores would be allowed to compete

What if the tournament format was a race to 3 hours of competition, and there was 3 different ways to win, 1st, be ahead on wins at the end of 3 hours, 2nd, be the first to win 25 games, 3rd, gain a 15 game lead on your opponent for an early win by knock out

What if the skill level test was having to play out 20 full racks of balls scoring 1 point per ball for the first 10 balls played in any order, and 2 points per ball for the last 5 balls made, but they had to be played in rotation, and any balls made on the break were worth 1 extra point, and you only had one chance to clear the rack from where the cue ball lay after the break If a person ran all 20 racks, never made a ball on the break, a perfect score would be 400 points, and what of this skill level test had to be performed on a Diamond 10ft ProAm and cost $150 to take this sanctioned test, and had to be repeated each time before one of these ''PROFESSIONALS ONLY'' tournaments took place, and as a start, there were 8 of these events held per year

Glen

 

[CJ Wiley]

With a 15 Second Shot Clock

there was a 10 ball tournament held which was limited to 64 Professional players only, which was single elimination, but the pay scale was 64-33 $500 each, 32-17 $1,000 each, 16-9 $2,000 each, 8-5 $4,000 each, 4-3 $8,000 each, 2nd paid $16,000, and first place paid $32,000, total pay out being $128,000

And what if everyone who wanted to play in this tournament was required to to take a skill level test in which ONLY the top 64 scores would be allowed to compete

What if the tournament format was a race to 3 hours of competition, and there was 3 different ways to win, 1st, be ahead on wins at the end of 3 hours, 2nd, be the first to win 25 games, 3rd, gain a 15 game lead on your opponent for an early win by knock out

What if the skill level test was having to play out 20 full racks of balls scoring 1 point per ball for the first 10 balls played in any order, and 2 points per ball for the last 5 balls made, but they had to be played in rotation, and any balls made on the break were worth 1 extra point, and you only had one chance to clear the rack from where the cue ball lay after the break If a person ran all 20 racks, never made a ball on the break, a perfect score would be 400 points, and what of this skill level test had to be performed on a Diamond 10ft ProAm and cost $150 to take this sanctioned test, and had to be repeated each time before one of these ''PROFESSIONALS ONLY'' tournaments took place, and as a start, there were 8 of these events held per year

Glen

With a 15 Second Shot Clock? Playing on a time schedule you'd have to have a shot clock, but that format is ok. POOL 300 here in Dallas is close that that type concept.

 

[realkingcobra]

With a 15 Second Shot Clock? Playing on a time schedule you'd have to have a shot clock, but that format is ok. POOL 300 here in Dallas is close that that type concept.

I thought that would catch your attention:grin: and yes, a 30 sec shot clock, waiting for just one player to put it into action, not all players want to race to the bell at the end of 3 hours of play, but if used, and a player runs out of time, the waiting player receives 1 unearned win for each time violation and it's still the same shooters turn at the table for another 30 seconds, 3 consecutive violations by a player is loss of match

 

[CJ Wiley]

Streaming video stuff isn't going to do the trick.

I thought that would catch your attention:grin: and yes, a 30 sec shot clock, waiting for just one player to put it into action, not all players want to race to the bell at the end of 3 hours of play, but if used, and a player runs out of time, the waiting player receives 1 unearned win for each time violation and it's still the same shooters turn at the table for another 30 seconds, 3 consecutive violations by a player is loss of match

30 seconds is an eternity.....20 is plenty or it just gets boring. The thing is you still have the same challenges. Without something tailored for TV it's not going to have much of an impact. Streaming video stuff isn't going to do the trick.

 

[realkingcobra]

With a 15 Second Shot Clock? Playing on a time schedule you'd have to have a shot clock, but that format is ok. POOL 300 here in Dallas is close that that type concept.

I also have a completely different format for 10 ball, designed for the viewing audience, kind of like running a mile, in 100 yards:grin:

 

[realkingcobra]

30 seconds is an eternity.....20 is plenty or it just gets boring. The thing is you still have the same challenges. Without something tailored for TV it's not going to have much of an impact. Streaming video stuff isn't going to do the trick.

10 ball, no holds barred:grin: no safeties, and any time the 10 is made out of turn, it counts as a win, spots back up and play continues, meaning players can win more than once in a game

 

[pooler]

I don't know where this all came from. I can't find a post on this thread that blames the pros for anything. I certainly don't. I am pointing my finger squarely at the game. The game has to be right for everything to fall into place.

I just keep doing what I do. That is to try to keep pocket billiards fresh and alive in my home town. I consider and experiment with most every new idea I see and read about (and can think up).

Hello Paul,
Just tried to send you a PM regarding the "fresh and alive pocket billiards" Fatal Flow thread :wink: - it says your inbox is full and can not accept incoming messages.
Any chance to fix it out, if possible ?
Regards

 

[one stroke]

It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

I dont know why people keep going down this endless road ,, pool will never ever ever be must see TV unless its part of another must see event Like the Pres Debate or something where the stars are bigger than the game,,
I dont care how you slice dice it put it in a bender and spit it out at the end of the day there is many many things on TV more entertaining than pool


1

 

[one stroke]

It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

sorry double post

 

[GrandTourPromo]

Pool doesn't need more spectators...

Pool needs more players. More so than it needs to be watched by more spectators, especially if those spectators aren't encouraged to play themselves.

The game needn't be changed in order to attract more players.

The problems that need and can be remedied are not difficult to resolve. It is a matter of creative and cost effective marketing.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Game of pool is fine, it's the personalities that need the special attention

I dont know why people keep going down this endless road ,, pool will never ever ever be must see TV unless its part of another must see event Like the Pres Debate or something where the stars are bigger than the game,,
I dont care how you slice dice it put it in a bender and spit it out at the end of the day there is many many things on TV more entertaining than pool



You guys are making some impressive points about why pool's not as popular now as it was in the 90's when Millions of people watched pool on ESPN. The fact is when 1000 random people were recently polled only 2% said they would watch pool on TV, and the reasons appeared simple.

It didn't matter how much money was involved or even what type of pool game it was. On the other hand when ask if they would be interested in watching pool if they knew the player and had heard them tell interesting stories about gambling at pool and life on the road, it jumped up to over 70%. Then when ask if they would gamble on their favorite players the numbers jumped up to over 80%. And the older demographic was 90%.

This puts a big hole in the stories saying "pool's not successful because of the image of gambling and hustling". It's quite the contrary my pool friends, the fact is pool can not be successful without the image of hustling and gambling.

This is the "powder" in the magic bullet and the key that unlocks the door to understanding the real reason pool has declined in the past 15 years. After all the waves were all made by 'THE HUSTLER' and 'THE COLOR OF MONEY'.

I road the last wave and did very well until about 10 years after the release of the 'Color of Money' (1986 Movie starring Paul Newman and Tom Cruise). I cringe every time I hear about the image or the game its self being the problem. In fact the solution is using the strength of pool, which is the underworld characters.

Finding a way to bring out the gambling action in an exciting, classy, tasteful way and positioning it to maximize entertainment value. Mixed Martial Arts recently did this, World Wide Wrestling and Texas Hold'em are doing it. And our very own Minnesota Fats took on the role of a movie character and did it years ago. The Game of pool is fine, it's the personalities that need the special attention and the character building.

This can be strategically done with the help of true acting professionals and a well scripted pool plot and theme. It's been proven twice that the masses will enjoy the allure of pocket billiards. 'The Hustler', then 'The Color of Money", now the question is "what's the next thing to captivate America, a documentary, a reality show, or another movie? Maybe we need to get ahold of Tom Cruise. :wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[rayjay]

Mixed Scotch doubles (pool, not the drink) with a shot clock playing 8-ball has the best chance to find personality "idols" that the general public can connect with...imo...think apa. With the right challenging, gambling or money-winning format, I think it has a chance on tv. Just a thought.
:slap:

 

[Paul Schofield]

I believe that Game is Perfect. It's not like golf, baseball, or football where you get the same amount of innings, holes, or downs. It's like BOXING where you know you have to perform or you may get knocked out. Pocket Billiards is the "Master Game" and we want to help The Game be the Best it can be.

I am sure that you are a well intentioned nice guy and I respect your passion for the game but you are confusing me.

What Game is perfect? Old Nine-Ball Honest Effort? Push-Out Nine-Ball, Texas Express Nine-Ball, Call only the 8 Eight-Ball? Call everything Eight-Ball? Ten-Ball World Standardized Rules? Ten-Ball with Nine-Ball rules? 14.1 Straight Pool? Bank Pool? Pool300? Bonus Ball? 6Pocket? One-Pocket? Should I continue with this? A marketing manager would not even know where to begin.

I know where to begin. It would be with a game that the entire pool community likes and plays and a game from which pool can grow. We don't have that. One game has to emerge, an old game has to be reworked, or a new game devised.

None of these games are like boxing. Boxing is highly interactive. Your metaphor is a real stretch.........Master Game?