English with Aiming Systems

[Gerry Williams]

This has probably been addressed in several threads but very difficult to find with the volume of posts on such a hot topic.

I am familiar with a number of systems but the one thing they have in common is the inability to allow for english.

Is there a system that factors this in or do they all account for centre ball hits only?

Appreciate your responses.

Gerry

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This has probably been addressed in several threads but very difficult to find with the volume of posts on such a hot topic.

I am familiar with a number of systems but the one thing they have in common is the inability to allow for english.

Is there a system that factors this in or do they all account for centre ball hits only?

Appreciate your responses.

Gerry

I think the only one that tries to account for sidespin is CJ Wiley's "use a hair of inside for every shot" technique. I'm not recommending it, just trying to answer your question.

pj
chgo

 

[scottjen26]

Actually the SEE system does allow for english corrections. You start by learning the standard shot categories (3 of them) and alignments that will get you to center ball / center pocket as with most systems. Then he describes useful adjustments for short/long shots, speed, etc.

For english adjustments, there are recommended line changes given based on some popular shafts, but what is emphasized is to train on this yourself and discover for your shaft and stroke what adjustments work and to document and work with them until they are seamless.

When I was using Pro1 exclusively, I would arrive at center ball and then if using english would adjust as I did before that, using FHE/BHE or adjusting manually as appropriate for the shot. It worked well enough, no compliants.

When I'm using SEE, the line adjustments are becoming automatic after working with them for just a week or two. For instance, on a normal 15 degree cut shot, I would align from the inside shadow of the cue ball to the center of the object ball. If using inside english at a normal speed and distance, I just align one "notch" over, so inside shadow of the cue ball to inside shadow of the object ball, and step in and shoot normally. If shooting with maximum english or a hard stroke, I align 2 notches over. And if adding distance to the mix, 3 notches.

I was pretty decent with english adjustments before, but with this new technique I'm quickly increasing my percentage on these shots even more. I can easily spin in a 30 degree cut shot with inside or outside 9 times out of 10 and am taking the same amount of time looking at and aiming the shot since it's just a simple alignment difference in the beginning of the routine.


Not here to debate one system over another, or even whether they work - that's been done to death. I like both Pro1 and SEE. But the SEE documentation is the first that I've seen that systematically teaches you to account for deflection/squirt/etc. and so far it seems to be working great. I did a little video of 10 - 15 shots using normal and extreme english from various positions, was going to post it for Ekkes to see but haven't done so yet. Once I do maybe I'll post here, or just PM you to check it out, since it might be hard other than my PSR to tell how I'm adjusting. But if you are interested PM me or check out some of his free vids online.

Scott

 

[Mitchxout]

Every shaft plays different. Another thing aiming systems can't account for is speed. Different speeds equal different aims, no way around it. Sorry.

 

[genomachino]

Player needs to learn these things.......

Every shaft plays different. Another thing aiming systems can't account for is speed. Different speeds equal different aims, no way around it. Sorry.

Every player needs to learn how their shaft is going to react when they hit a ball hard, soft, right or left English, draw or follow.

A player should already be factoring what they are going to do in the preshot and be incorporating that into their aim.

Example: You have a maple shaft and you are putting allot of right English and shooting hard the full length of the table. You better aim to the right of the object ball to allow for the deflection. That shaft is going to shove that cue ball allot to the left before it even gets there.

Asking an aiming system to do this figuring for you is rediculous. A player needs to learn where they are aiming and hit what they are aiming with their adjustments included..

Or hitting a golf shot with the wind blowing to the left at 15 miles an hour. You better aim the shot a bunch to the right but you still need to aim the shot correctly. You need a definite to aim at.

You can use shadows, lights reflections on the object ball or other things as a reference but a player needs how to adjust for all the other variables that there are when figuring out how to pocket the ball.

Like a sniper trying to hit a target with the wind blowing 10 miles an hour from left to right. He better adjust his aim to the wind or he'll never come close to the target at 300 yards.

The good thing is that there are qualified teachers all over the place that can teach players these things.

There are 100's or maybe even 1000's of great BCA instructors all over the country. Thanks to people like Randy G and Scott L. These guys will hook you up with someone local if they can't get there themselves.

Most of the time a player right in your poolhall that plays at a higher level can help other players understand these things. Pick their brain. It's not rocket science but you do need to understand it or you can't explain it.

I hope this clears this up a little. Just trying to help.....

 

[The Renfro]

SEE system...... scottjen is dead on.... Ekkes does a very good job taking you thru the standards and then adjustments for english... I have been under lock down around the house for several months and had to give up on going thru the revised SEE system but the original for me was intuitive and made complete sense the very first time at the table....

IF I had to recommend a single system to someone I would point them to Ekkes any day of the week...

 

[8pack]

This has probably been addressed in several threads but very difficult to find with the volume of posts on such a hot topic.

I am familiar with a number of systems but the one thing they have in common is the inability to allow for english.

Is there a system that factors this in or do they all account for centre ball hits only?

Appreciate your responses.

Gerry

I dont think any system could correctly account for this.(When playing shape on another ball)Distance and speed of the hit is always changing and know aiming system correctly allows for this.

 

[The Renfro]

I dont think any system could correctly account for this.(When playing shape on another ball)Distance and speed of the hit is always changing and know aiming system correctly allows for this.

You need to look into the SEE system... Speed and Distance are covered along with english.......

 

[sfmc-x1]

From my understanding of the various systems available today, they do not account for spin, squirt, deflection, added effect of english on speed or length of shot, and ultimately throw.

As mentioned above some systems will suggest the shooter use different alignments with varied/desired english to obtain the desired outcome... pocketing the object ball and optimum shape for the next shot.

The amount of english used on each shot will always vary depending on current position on the table, angle of pocketing current shot, and desired position for next shot.

Shot to shot, those variables are rarely the same, so, applying english to a shot where an alignment system is being used to aid the shooter in pocketing balls can reveal the system as being inconsistent in the most extreme cases, where misses do occur.

Using a system still requires the shooter to exact a amount of natural feel and judgment into each shot... when using english. Nothing becomes automatic when using a system. Once you learn one, you still have to learn to use it.

My $0.02

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Using a system still requires the shooter to exact a amount of natural feel and judgment into each shot... when using english.

Feel and judgment is always required, either consciously or unconsciously - with or without english, with or without an aiming system.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Feel and judgment is always required, either consciously or unconsciously - with or without english, with or without an aiming system.

pj
chgo

Simply well said, PJ.

Regards,

 

[scottjen26]

Yes, some feel is required. Knowledge of the effects and experience can not be replaced with some robotic adjustment, not that I've seen yet.

However, the SEE system does at least attempt to minimize the feel required by suggesting examples of adjustments that can be made and how to tailor them to your personal shaft and stroke. For this to work I've found that you need to be somewhat consistent with your approach to english, but that can work for a lot of shots.

By trying to stay consistent in the approach, I can pick out a few reference positions for english and a few speeds and train what the adjustments are for those shots. They work very, very well, I can shoot inside english shots from various positions and distances with at least 90% of the precision I have using center ball, which I feel is better than I did before with just feel and better than most people would be just trying to estimate the effects. And it's because I know how to align differently to compensate for the resulting squirt/curve effects.

It's not perfect, and never will be - I make a bad stroke, I line up for a medium shot but punch it too much and get a bit more squirt than allowed for, etc. And hopefully I'm not having to spin the ball all over the place too often to get out. But at least it's a nice reference, and when I'm shooting a 30 degree cut with 2 tips of inside english I spend the same amount of time lining it up as I do with center ball and have the same trust that I'm going to make it.

Something to explore anyway for those of you curious about an aiming system that does try to systemize adjustments for english.

Scott

 

[dgem]

Yes, some feel is required. Knowledge of the effects and experience can not be replaced with some robotic adjustment, not that I've seen yet.

However, the SEE system does at least attempt to minimize the feel required by suggesting examples of adjustments that can be made and how to tailor them to your personal shaft and stroke. For this to work I've found that you need to be somewhat consistent with your approach to english, but that can work for a lot of shots.

By trying to stay consistent in the approach, I can pick out a few reference positions for english and a few speeds and train what the adjustments are for those shots. They work very, very well, I can shoot inside english shots from various positions and distances with at least 90% of the precision I have using center ball, which I feel is better than I did before with just feel and better than most people would be just trying to estimate the effects. And it's because I know how to align differently to compensate for the resulting squirt/curve effects.

It's not perfect, and never will be - I make a bad stroke, I line up for a medium shot but punch it too much and get a bit more squirt than allowed for, etc. And hopefully I'm not having to spin the ball all over the place too often to get out. But at least it's a nice reference, and when I'm shooting a 30 degree cut with 2 tips of inside english I spend the same amount of time lining it up as I do with center ball and have the same trust that I'm going to make it.

Something to explore anyway for those of you curious about an aiming system that does try to systemize adjustments for english.

Scott

Hey scott, glad all these systems are working for you!! =)

What shaft are you using now? is it 314-2 or have you finally bought hp2?

 

[CJ Wiley]

understand how to calibrate "shot speed" you rarely have to adjust for spin

This has probably been addressed in several threads but very difficult to find with the volume of posts on such a hot topic.

I am familiar with a number of systems but the one thing they have in common is the inability to allow for english.

Is there a system that factors this in or do they all account for centre ball hits only?

Appreciate your responses.

Gerry

When you start to pre set the angle of your cue before address and understand how to calibrate "shot speed" you rarely have to adjust for spin. Also, like many other players, you will want to start out a "hair" to the inside of the cue ball every time.

To increase the margin of error in your "pocket zone" throwing balls in with either deflection or spin consistently (except on straight in or slow rolled shots) is something I would suggest incorporating over time. This is what gives you the perception of the pocket being a Zone so you can increase your shot speed, accuracy and confidence.

 

[scottjen26]

Hey scott, glad all these systems are working for you!! =)

What shaft are you using now? is it 314-2 or have you finally bought hp2?

Hey, how's it going!

Actually using a Mezz WD700 right now, I like it, similar deflection to the 314-2 but little stiffer hit, more like traditional shaft. Still like the old Z2, but now that I've been playing with these english adjustments I finally feel like I can do the same things I could do with the z, just took the same level of experimentation and getting more comfortable with the shaft.

Scott

 

[8pack]

You need to look into the SEE system... Speed and Distance are covered along with english.......

I've tried to figure this see system out but just ain't seeing it yet.
Need to look over it some more.The whole set up and finding the aiming line kinda confuses me.(Not hard to do)

Anthony

 

[sfmc-x1]

Feel and judgment is always required, either consciously or unconsciously - with or without english, with or without an aiming system.

pj
chgo

Nothing becomes automatic when using a system. Once you learn one, you still have to learn to use it.

My $0.02

Kudos to you sir
:clapping:

 

[the kidd]

eAny English can be used without compensating for them.

If you watch Jim Reids video or aiming on his web site he shows how to visulize a tube to the object ball in which any english can be used without compensating for them.

 

[Mitchxout]

If you watch Jim Reids video or aiming on his web site he shows how to visulize a tube to the object ball in which any english can be used without compensating for them.

You should watch the video again because that's not what he is doing. When Jimmy hits the 3 rail inside english shot he explains where to aim and to trust your stroke.

 

[JB Cases]

Every shaft plays different. Another thing aiming systems can't account for is speed. Different speeds equal different aims, no way around it. Sorry.

Not with CTE. The aim is the same no matter the speed.

With CTE I use backhand english when I need to add spin and that works perfectly.

Now when using spin you will want to adjust for speed but that comes with practice. I am sure that there is a way to calculate it systematically but I just have it down through practice and feel.