Soooooo, I'm a slow player.........
- Thread starter fathomblue
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The stripe nearest the cueball first. If the stripe goes in the side, past the 3, I'd take it as my second shot to ease down table for the 13. Then I could take the 11 and then the 9.
this is your second shot and you will now have control over the table once you make this. A mistake i see made often, is that guys don't realize they have to get behind balls and go back up table, but instead go for low percentage shots and usually miss and then get run out by better players.
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Must have had more angle on that first shot than appeared.
That would be my preferred second shot, that being said getting to that perfect position from where the cueball was at the start is no walk in the park for the majority of players and i would over or under hit that 75% of the time.
well you will be coming off the long rail and bottom rail, you should be able to get shape for either the side or corner on that second shot.
here is the link to that match http://vimeo.com/48011269#at=0
here is the link to that match http://vimeo.com/48011269#at=0
Thanks for the link i enjoy watching pros play 8 ball.
JC
Coos Cues
There you go. Just when they're about to give it up and accept it's not working nor acceptable, someone like you gives them a dollar and the bums are right there the next day with the same silly sign. It never ends, this shit........
JC
JC
Coos Cues
Well that's one way to handle it if he can't work up the balls to jump off a bridge.:smile:
JC
Edit: Did I mention that I hate slow players? And don't be confused, it's not the slow play I hate. It's the player.
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I need to preface this by saying JUSTIN IS MY FRIEND! So nothing here I say is to hurt Justin's feelings, rather to give him an idea how the locals percieve his slow play and how I personally feel about it.
So.... I'm the guy responsible for this thread. I'm the one that timed everyone in the room that night.
I was at the pool room last night and actually found the time sheet I did a few weeks ago. The times were from the time the last ball on the table stopped rolling until the cue ball was struck for the next shot. Justin was notably slower than everyone else. the next slowest player, Clyde the Glyde, rated only one point above Justin, played about twice as fast as Justin.
My personal feelings? In short race touranments, who cares!!! It used to bother me, but Justin's speed of play, which in 9 ball, regardless of his perception is about the same as it is in 8 ball, has actually taught me to relax when I'm not at the table. I know he doesn't intend this as a "shark" but it is a HUGE shark to most people. It used to be for me. When I first started playing Justin, I would sit in the chair while he was at the table and think " This is like watching grass grow... come on, man, just shoot the friggin' shot... it's just a straight in stop shot and you're out!!! GEEZ!!!! ". I would DRIVE MYSELF CRAZY over his speed of play, but that has changed. I don't care how long he takes now, I'm going through my normal routine and get out.
There are two players at our room that it really does bother. One of them is a solid master player and as he says "It just takes the wind out of me to play him". Usually, he will beat Justin, but he's just so mentally drained, that he'll lose his next match. That said, it must also be said that this guy really likes Justin and enjoys his enthusiasm about pool. Few players I know are more enthusiastic about the game than Justin Wray.
So, how does this effect other's... usually adversely. Good players are going to get "out of their game" sometimes, because of slow play. Justin, when he first started playing here, took me out of my game several times. He still beats me in a handicapped race from time to time, but with the games on the wire in a short race (he has to win 3 games and I have to win either 5 or 6, can't remember) that is just going to happen. There will be nights when I can't hit the end rail with a push broom, usually a pain issue (I have one steel knee, one bad knee and fused vertabrae in my upper back) and he has the nuts on those nights... EVERYBODY DOES!!! Generally, and nothing personal, Justin, you know this... he's going to get one game, maybe two in a short race. Another one of our Master Division Players is going to lose to him a little more often because he lets the slow play get under his skin.
Now, here is where this will get to be an issue for Justin. If we get in a tournament where there is an optional shot clock, I'd put him on the clock in a heartbeat. He is my friend, but pool is pool and I like winning, and I like EASY wins, so if I can put him on the clock and get 3 or 4 or more ball in hands for shot clock violations, I'm going to do it. There is another player from Little Rock, who I also consider a friend, that I'd put on the shot clock in a heartbeat. Would I gamble with Justin? Cheap stuff, yeah... serious money... maybe, but he'd get no spot unless he'd agree to letting one of the railbirds run a stopwatch and a 25 or 30 second shot clock.
So yes, Justin's speed of play is an issue for most people, but not for everyone. I saw someone play slower once, but he doesn't play anymore... I think he died of old age trying to analyze a half ball cut shot on the money ball. More importantly, I think, whether he realizes is or not, his slow play has become an issue for him. The slowest shot I found on the sheet when I looked at it last night was 1 minute 19 seconds. I noted that he missed the shot AND even if he had made it, missed his position for the next shot. Paralysis by analysis. There is such a thing as not giving a shot enough consideration, but giving it TOO much thought... well, we know what happens then.
All of that and I'll probably end up playing Justin in a One Pocket tournament this weekend (watching grass grow :smile: )... I don't care. He can take his time, I'll play my usually 12 to 14 seconds per shot and we'll see what happens. But there are many in our room that this gets to them. The way I see it, when Justin is in a match and I'm waiting for the winner of that match, I have plenty of time to run into town and eat a late dinner! :wink:
Bob
So.... I'm the guy responsible for this thread. I'm the one that timed everyone in the room that night.
I was at the pool room last night and actually found the time sheet I did a few weeks ago. The times were from the time the last ball on the table stopped rolling until the cue ball was struck for the next shot. Justin was notably slower than everyone else. the next slowest player, Clyde the Glyde, rated only one point above Justin, played about twice as fast as Justin.
My personal feelings? In short race touranments, who cares!!! It used to bother me, but Justin's speed of play, which in 9 ball, regardless of his perception is about the same as it is in 8 ball, has actually taught me to relax when I'm not at the table. I know he doesn't intend this as a "shark" but it is a HUGE shark to most people. It used to be for me. When I first started playing Justin, I would sit in the chair while he was at the table and think " This is like watching grass grow... come on, man, just shoot the friggin' shot... it's just a straight in stop shot and you're out!!! GEEZ!!!! ". I would DRIVE MYSELF CRAZY over his speed of play, but that has changed. I don't care how long he takes now, I'm going through my normal routine and get out.
There are two players at our room that it really does bother. One of them is a solid master player and as he says "It just takes the wind out of me to play him". Usually, he will beat Justin, but he's just so mentally drained, that he'll lose his next match. That said, it must also be said that this guy really likes Justin and enjoys his enthusiasm about pool. Few players I know are more enthusiastic about the game than Justin Wray.
So, how does this effect other's... usually adversely. Good players are going to get "out of their game" sometimes, because of slow play. Justin, when he first started playing here, took me out of my game several times. He still beats me in a handicapped race from time to time, but with the games on the wire in a short race (he has to win 3 games and I have to win either 5 or 6, can't remember) that is just going to happen. There will be nights when I can't hit the end rail with a push broom, usually a pain issue (I have one steel knee, one bad knee and fused vertabrae in my upper back) and he has the nuts on those nights... EVERYBODY DOES!!! Generally, and nothing personal, Justin, you know this... he's going to get one game, maybe two in a short race. Another one of our Master Division Players is going to lose to him a little more often because he lets the slow play get under his skin.
Now, here is where this will get to be an issue for Justin. If we get in a tournament where there is an optional shot clock, I'd put him on the clock in a heartbeat. He is my friend, but pool is pool and I like winning, and I like EASY wins, so if I can put him on the clock and get 3 or 4 or more ball in hands for shot clock violations, I'm going to do it. There is another player from Little Rock, who I also consider a friend, that I'd put on the shot clock in a heartbeat. Would I gamble with Justin? Cheap stuff, yeah... serious money... maybe, but he'd get no spot unless he'd agree to letting one of the railbirds run a stopwatch and a 25 or 30 second shot clock.
So yes, Justin's speed of play is an issue for most people, but not for everyone. I saw someone play slower once, but he doesn't play anymore... I think he died of old age trying to analyze a half ball cut shot on the money ball. More importantly, I think, whether he realizes is or not, his slow play has become an issue for him. The slowest shot I found on the sheet when I looked at it last night was 1 minute 19 seconds. I noted that he missed the shot AND even if he had made it, missed his position for the next shot. Paralysis by analysis. There is such a thing as not giving a shot enough consideration, but giving it TOO much thought... well, we know what happens then.
All of that and I'll probably end up playing Justin in a One Pocket tournament this weekend (watching grass grow :smile: )... I don't care. He can take his time, I'll play my usually 12 to 14 seconds per shot and we'll see what happens. But there are many in our room that this gets to them. The way I see it, when Justin is in a match and I'm waiting for the winner of that match, I have plenty of time to run into town and eat a late dinner! :wink:
Bob
While I do HATE playing slow players I've pretty much adjusted to it. There was a regular in the room I played in for almost 25 years that we called
"Cobweb" that would take upwards of 30 seconds on a six inch straight-in in the side pocket. Playing him for a lot of years was tough but it helped me to ignore slow play in others.
"Cobweb" that would take upwards of 30 seconds on a six inch straight-in in the side pocket. Playing him for a lot of years was tough but it helped me to ignore slow play in others.
BobN:
Thanks for jumping in, and explaining things. Those sample times you mention -- over a minute, only to end up in a miss, proves there's a lot of "paralysis through analysis" going on there.
It sounds like Justin takes a ration for his slow play, and came here on AZB, with a sarcastically-titled "Soooooo, I'm a slow player........." thread, to thumb his nose at those that lash-out (or make their feelings known) about slow play.
But as he saw, in this thread, there was very little support given, and he sees it's universally despised.
There's a player in my room that's universally known for slow play, and folks in general avoid playing him, unless they have to (e.g. they draw him in a tournament). He goes around the room, asking people to play him, but in general most folks simply wave him off. He's a very good player ("A" level), but he's like a La Brea Tar Pit -- once you are in a game with him, you are suffocated. He takes all the enjoyment out of playing pool -- he sucks the life out of the game. I'm about one of the few that will play him, but I'll only play him in straight pool -- where I can sit his *ss down and make him watch an extended run. He'd gotten better (quicker) at the table, but only because he became exasperated that noone wants to play him, and outright told him he's not enjoyable to play -- and it had nothing to do with his skill. You are a very lonely dude in the poolroom when NOONE wants to play you and it has nothing to do with the fact you're otherwise a good player.
Justin doesn't sound like the same caliber of player that I'm talking about, so in a lot of ways it's even worse watching someone "excruciate" over a shot, only to ultimately miss it. Not because it's a difficult shot (you know it's within his skillset to make that shot), but because the "helpful instructor" in all of this do the "facepalm" when we watch someone analyze their way into a miss. There's no justification there for this, and there will be no round of support for this thread, especially with its sarcastic title.
IMHO, I think with practice -- and a focus to trust his subconscious -- Justin will learn to relax.
-Sean
Thanks for jumping in, and explaining things. Those sample times you mention -- over a minute, only to end up in a miss, proves there's a lot of "paralysis through analysis" going on there.
It sounds like Justin takes a ration for his slow play, and came here on AZB, with a sarcastically-titled "Soooooo, I'm a slow player........." thread, to thumb his nose at those that lash-out (or make their feelings known) about slow play.
But as he saw, in this thread, there was very little support given, and he sees it's universally despised.
There's a player in my room that's universally known for slow play, and folks in general avoid playing him, unless they have to (e.g. they draw him in a tournament). He goes around the room, asking people to play him, but in general most folks simply wave him off. He's a very good player ("A" level), but he's like a La Brea Tar Pit -- once you are in a game with him, you are suffocated. He takes all the enjoyment out of playing pool -- he sucks the life out of the game. I'm about one of the few that will play him, but I'll only play him in straight pool -- where I can sit his *ss down and make him watch an extended run. He'd gotten better (quicker) at the table, but only because he became exasperated that noone wants to play him, and outright told him he's not enjoyable to play -- and it had nothing to do with his skill. You are a very lonely dude in the poolroom when NOONE wants to play you and it has nothing to do with the fact you're otherwise a good player.
Justin doesn't sound like the same caliber of player that I'm talking about, so in a lot of ways it's even worse watching someone "excruciate" over a shot, only to ultimately miss it. Not because it's a difficult shot (you know it's within his skillset to make that shot), but because the "helpful instructor" in all of this do the "facepalm" when we watch someone analyze their way into a miss. There's no justification there for this, and there will be no round of support for this thread, especially with its sarcastic title.
IMHO, I think with practice -- and a focus to trust his subconscious -- Justin will learn to relax.
-Sean
To the OP:
To me this is rather simple and I know because I've struggled with this.
You have to leave your practice at the practice table and enter into your competition mode.
When you are working on things like your PSR or specific stroke mechanics you may be more deliberate and pay closer attention to what you're doing in order to correct something, or in order to create a new habit. That's fine and that's what practice is for.
However, when you are out competing all of that needs to go out the window. When I'm competing if I can't play with a completely quiet mind, I will try to focus on just a single thought or two. Simple stuff like "deliver it straight", or "watch the object ball until it goes into the pocket", or the old standby "stay down". Those sorts of things. If you are spending time thinking about where your right foot is positioned, or how your eyes are shifting from cue ball to object ball, or whether or not your wrist is turned just right, you are doing yourself a disservice.
I have found I'm only able to play my best pool when I let all that stuff go and just play.
Practice is practice. Competition is competition.
To me this is rather simple and I know because I've struggled with this.
You have to leave your practice at the practice table and enter into your competition mode.
When you are working on things like your PSR or specific stroke mechanics you may be more deliberate and pay closer attention to what you're doing in order to correct something, or in order to create a new habit. That's fine and that's what practice is for.
However, when you are out competing all of that needs to go out the window. When I'm competing if I can't play with a completely quiet mind, I will try to focus on just a single thought or two. Simple stuff like "deliver it straight", or "watch the object ball until it goes into the pocket", or the old standby "stay down". Those sorts of things. If you are spending time thinking about where your right foot is positioned, or how your eyes are shifting from cue ball to object ball, or whether or not your wrist is turned just right, you are doing yourself a disservice.
I have found I'm only able to play my best pool when I let all that stuff go and just play.
Practice is practice. Competition is competition.
Sean, that's nothing further from the truth, as far as me coming to thumb my nose at people. I genuinely came here for help. I certainly didn't expect anyone to stick up for me.
And definitely no hard feelings to Bob and the rest at our pool room. I knew how they feel. Again, that's why I'm here. Think of this as my AA meeting. I'm admitting I have a problem and just looking for some advice.
I don't think it's quite as easy as saying, "Just shoot!". But, then again, maybe it is. The next couple of tournaments, I'm just going to shoot and see what happens.
Well, maybe not 1-pocket this weekend.
And definitely no hard feelings to Bob and the rest at our pool room. I knew how they feel. Again, that's why I'm here. Think of this as my AA meeting. I'm admitting I have a problem and just looking for some advice.
I don't think it's quite as easy as saying, "Just shoot!". But, then again, maybe it is. The next couple of tournaments, I'm just going to shoot and see what happens.
Well, maybe not 1-pocket this weekend.
Very well put! I tend to either concentrate on nothing physical as long as I'm playing well (so I don't need to "discipline" myself or quiet my mind), or on the "stop & check" as I call it (that pause after the practice swings that's essentially the point of no return for each shot), or, as Jerry Briesath teaches it, a slow back swing.
EDIT: What I tell my students is that for those situations, they need to find the one element of their technique that acts like the glue that holds their game together (= usually I help them find it), and concentrate on nothing else whenever playing intuitively fails.
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
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Sean, that's nothing further from the truth, as far as me coming to thumb my nose at people. I genuinely came here for help. I certainly didn't expect anyone to stick up for me.
And definitely no hard feelings to Bob and the rest at our pool room. I knew how they feel. Again, that's why I'm here. Think of this as my AA meeting. I'm admitting I have a problem and just looking for some advice.
I don't think it's quite as easy as saying, "Just shoot!". But, then again, maybe it is. The next couple of tournaments, I'm just going to shoot and see what happens.
Well, maybe not 1-pocket this weekend.
Justin:
I think part of the problem is the title of your thread -- "Sooooooo, I'm a slow player...." -- it's as if you're saying "So what? I'm a slow player..." (At least in these parts, when someone drags out the "so" -- it's like "Soooooooo?")
Good that you're admitting the problem, and not trying to "defend" why you do it (which most slow players do).
You're right -- it's not simply "just shoot" -- you have to diagnose what you're doing, when you're doing it, and why. Why are you spending so much time analyzing? Is it the table layout? (Which, if you're doing this in 9-ball, it's even worse. The table layout in 9-ball is what it is -- you only have one object ball on the table to aim at, vs. 8-ball, or 14.1, or one pocket, where you have to select amongst a plethora of different patterns or moves.) Is it instead the thoughts of "what happens if I miss?" Are you thinking about your fundamentals? (This is a grand no-no during competition, as Chris [BasementDweller] mentions.)
The fact that you're open to having someone stopwatch you, is a good thing. I would recommend you learn to trust your first inclination. It's not a matter of "just shoot," as it is more of the fact you need to learn to trust yourself. (You apparently don't.) That conscious mind is DEVASTATING in its ability to be the backseat driver in your pool game; that backseat driver that just won't shut up. Trust your inclination, trust your subconscious.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=216564
HTH,
-Sean
If you know he's trying to shark you because he knows you can't stand slow play I would agree. But... if he is just a slow player, are you then sharking him?
My point was that one should never show any 'Achiles Heel' that an opponent can exploit. Show no sign of disdain, just relax, be patient & get the win. When you're at the table you can shoot as fast as you want & run out, that keeps the slow player off of the table.
Shooting pool is not a timed race. It's all about the final result, who wins.
Best Regards,
Sean, that's nothing further from the truth, as far as me coming to thumb my nose at people. I genuinely came here for help. I certainly didn't expect anyone to stick up for me.
And definitely no hard feelings to Bob and the rest at our pool room. I knew how they feel. Again, that's why I'm here. Think of this as my AA meeting. I'm admitting I have a problem and just looking for some advice.
I don't think it's quite as easy as saying, "Just shoot!". But, then again, maybe it is. The next couple of tournaments, I'm just going to shoot and see what happens.
Well, maybe not 1-pocket this weekend.
Well, to me it is as simple as "shoot it in". In Justin's defense, he has been to me for 24 hours of intense "pool school" (sorry RandyG for stealing your term but you taught me to teach, so he pretty much get everything he would get if he came to pool school a few years ago when I was showing up and helping out from time to time) and in that, he basically got his game torn down and rebuilt. Justin quit playing for a long time and now he has a lot to think about. I absolutely agree, that thinking should be done at the practice table. Practice mode and battle mode are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! In addition to me screwing with his game, he spent time with a couple of pro players in Tunica that gave him additional ideas and has gone through at least one, maybe two of what I call the "gang bang seminars" with pro players. All of the information he has amassed over the past 6 months or so has to be mind boggling and honestly, it's too much to think about and still be able to play to full potential.
I'm a stroke guy, OK. I like a good stroke and think a good stroke is responsible for most great shots. Once you have a good stroke, one that you're confident in, then everything else comes together... some people, it comes so that they're great players, some it comes so that they're just good solid players. I also teach regimented routines... a particular preshot and shooting routine that I feel like is necessary in my game (different for everyone, of course) that has only three things you need to consider... Angle, Speed and Spin. Justin is now at the point where he has to look at a shot, look at where he needs to be for the next shot and conciously think "OK, I need to hit this "X" speed, with a half a tip of low and a quarter tip of inside so the cue ball will go here, here then here and give me the the right angle for the next shot". I just look at where I need to be and really, except on a few really difficult position shots, just say 'OK' and the cue just strikes the ball at the right place at the right speed and everything happens the way it's supposed to. I am basically what I call a "Right Brain" player. Quoting from Wise Geek's website "People who have a right brain dominance first apply creativity to problem solving. They are more reliant on intuition and quickly grasp the overall picture of a situation. As a rule, right brain thinkers are not very detail-oriented." Watching Justin play, his left brain is still there doing a detailed analysis on every shot. Quoting from the same website, left brain people "...use rational logic to identity the cause of a problem and then think about how to solve it. As a general rule, left brain thinkers are detail-oriented." That very well could change for him. I've seen a lot of left brain shooters develop into right brain shooters, or "intuitive players". I wish there was just a magic pill that we could take that would make us practice left brain and play right, but unfortunately, no such thing. The "Pill" is time, practice and confidence... trust in yourself and your game enough to just Let It Go!
Bob
How would i be sharking him? My reaction to the slow play will depend on the importance of the game i am playing with the slow guy. When i am playing i have a reasonable time limit i give to my opponent.
Are you saying i will be sharking him if i think he is purposely slow playing me and i notice it and i give him safety after safety and drag the game on for 30 minutes in retaliation?
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