What's Good About A Good Stroke?

[naji]

All you're saying is that it takes both good aim and a good stroke to succeed. Interdependence doesn't = identity. The plan isn't part of the stroke.

The reason I'm so adamant about this is that adding unnecessary elements to the definition of a "good stroke" tends to cloud the reality that how the stroke affects the CB is very simple to understand and describe. There are no unobvious or mystical "qualities" in a good stroke - a simple mechanical shooting jig lke Iron Willy (the Predator jig used in some of the Jacksonville tests) can do everything with a cue ball that a pro can.

pj
chgo

Getting close, thanks Swest for looking after me.
PJ , if one of your student have perfect stroke and keep missing shots, what are you going to tell him, i assume "Student, you have to plan your shot before you go down, and consider CB direction and effect of CB when it hits OB in your aim" how is stroke is not part of aim? they must be always mentioned at same time. I am not saying here that running the table is part of good stroke, that is 100% different.

i agree with you 100% a simple mechanical shooting jig lke Iron Willy (the Predator jig used in some of the Jacksonville tests) can do everything with a cue ball that a pro can, if you do not tie it to a result it would not mean much. Like saying this car has four turbochargers and laser guidance system and 16 cylinder engine and stop, it would be lacking, the audience will ask so....what does it do?

 

[duckie]

You can pick the wrong spot on the table to put the CB to make the OB go in the pocket and use a perfect stroke to get the CB to that spot.

 

[nobcitypool]

It's all done in good fun. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I guess if your idea of fun is attempting to pass yourself off as knowing things you clearly don't, by cutting and pasting crap from google searches, then you must be having an absolute riot CJ. No worries though, you clearly have a mindless crew of sycophants that will overlook all that without any questions.

 

[naji]

You can pick the wrong spot on the table to put the CB to make the OB go in the pocket and use a perfect stroke to get the CB to that spot.

Please duckie, every one that play pool their objective is to make the ball that they are shooting as consistent as possible, there are several ways to make a ball none of them will drive the OB to the pocket if you do not plan your aim correctly and stroke it correctly. example: you plan to shoot long OB to pocket from end of the table with high RH english soft shot, CB about 3 diamonds away from OB. CB about 6" from rail, for sure your cue is elevated shooting it soft will most likely swerve tell me how are you going to make it if you do not include correct aim in your plan.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

i agree with you 100% a simple mechanical shooting jig lke Iron Willy (the Predator jig used in some of the Jacksonville tests) can do everything with a cue ball that a pro can, if you do not tie it to a result it would not mean much.

You set up the machine for the shot you want (planning), and then the machine accomplishes it without you (stroke). Of course both are necessary, but that doesn't mean the planning is part of the stroke - they're clearly distinguishable.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

Keep posting, CJ. Your thoughts are welcome as far as I'm concerned. I can't understand the outright rudeness some of these guys are sending your way. I can understand being skeptical and saying so, but why do they post every time you do? Make your point and quit being an OCD troll about every bit of info. Ask CJ for the 5 ball or let the discussion move on.

You've got a full stable of stalkers and they're all hitting the refresh button right now...hoping to get you riled up! Interrnet bullies who get braver the tamer your posts get. Fade their comments.

One of my best friends played on the Camel tour and has been following these threads. He said you're crazy trying to help these people. He won't even register because of all the know it alls. Sheesh! :ignore:

Best,
Mike

You of course are free to believe what and who you want to. Some of us really care about others actually getting better, and will call out the crap. No matter who posts it. You want to follow what CJ says, go for it, and good luck with that. The only way what he has said will help you is because you will finally be paying more attention at the table to what you are doing. (something that has been "preached" on here for years and years). Some of us don't have "hero worship syndrome", and see right through the nonsense. If you are really serious about wanting to learn to play very well, go watch Dr. Dave's free videos and start incorporating that info into your game.

As far as rudeness, you are wrong. We call out B.S. and back it up with facts. What is CJ;s response? Post some stupid picture and give no facts to back up what he said. He obviously is not really interested in you other than you buy his DVD's.

We have had talks about Archer, Varner, Hall, Eberle, Hillbilly, Kid Delicious, Genomachino, Stan Shuffett and others on here. None of them caught any flak like CJ is. With the possible exceptions of Geno and Stan. But, they explained well what they were teaching, and why, and the results showed for them. Why? Because of what was provided for info. Sometimes questionable, but mainly solid info. What CJ has been providing is mainly nonsense and sales talk you and some others are falling for with no substance.

 

[Neil]

Getting close, thanks Swest for looking after me.
PJ , if one of your student have perfect stroke and keep missing shots, what are you going to tell him, i assume "Student, you have to plan your shot before you go down, and consider CB direction and effect of CB when it hits OB in your aim" how is stroke is not part of aim? they must be always mentioned at same time. I am not saying here that running the table is part of good stroke, that is 100% different.

i agree with you 100% a simple mechanical shooting jig lke Iron Willy (the Predator jig used in some of the Jacksonville tests) can do everything with a cue ball that a pro can, if you do not tie it to a result it would not mean much. Like saying this car has four turbochargers and laser guidance system and 16 cylinder engine and stop, it would be lacking, the audience will ask so....what does it do?

You still aren't accepting what the rest of the pool world knows and accepts. The stroke is the movement of the cue. Nothing more. The stroke is not aiming, it is not pocketing a ball, it not position play. The stroke is nothing more than delivering the cue to a specific part on the cb at a constant or accelerating speed. You insisting that the stroke is the entire shot does not make it so. Somewhere along the line you accepted what you believe, and even with facts from so many you still won't let it go and change your thinking to what the rest of the world believes. All the books out there, you will not find a one that says what you believe the stroke is. You aren't going to change the "textbooks", so why not just learn what they teach??

 

[Mikjary]

You of course are free to believe what and who you want to. Some of us really care about others actually getting better, and will call out the crap. No matter who posts it. You want to follow what CJ says, go for it, and good luck with that. The only way what he has said will help you is because you will finally be paying more attention at the table to what you are doing. (something that has been "preached" on here for years and years). Some of us don't have "hero worship syndrome", and see right through the nonsense. If you are really serious about wanting to learn to play very well, go watch Dr. Dave's free videos and start incorporating that info into your game.

As far as rudeness, you are wrong. We call out B.S. and back it up with facts. What is CJ;s response? Post some stupid picture and give no facts to back up what he said. He obviously is not really interested in you other than you buy his DVD's.

We have had talks about Archer, Varner, Hall, Eberle, Hillbilly, Kid Delicious, Genomachino, Stan Shuffett and others on here. None of them caught any flak like CJ is. With the possible exceptions of Geno and Stan. But, they explained well what they were teaching, and why, and the results showed for them. Why? Because of what was provided for info. Sometimes questionable, but mainly solid info. What CJ has been providing is mainly nonsense and sales talk you and some others are falling for with no substance.

You won't let the guy post without trying to discredit him. That's my point. I'd like to hear what he has to say because he's been to the top of the mountain. The people nipping at his legs don't have his experiences yet they tell him to put a sock in it.

Geno and Stan took too much heat. So why are we doing it to CJ, too?

As far as my game and your advice about how to improve...I ran a 131 back in the 80's and ran a dozen or more centuries when I played straights. I consider myself an open level player. When I played regularly I couldn't get a spot from many pros for the cash. So please stop trying to instruct me on what I need to learn about the game. Maybe I might know a little something. I don't need a hero, btw. That's for people who don't believe in themselves.

Best,
Mike

 

[Banks]

Bank i have to disagree here, aiming and stroke go together, say you want to hit a stun with RH english, (assuming for a second the cue deflection is not in the picture) we know the OB will throw so we aim accordingly, but if your stroke such that it rolled before you hit the OB (the sliding of cue ended before it touches the OB), then OB will not throw as much and might miss the shot (for OB long shot)

You just proved my point, Naji. Just because you know how to stroke, does not mean that you know how to incorporate that into aiming. And just because you can stroke, does not mean that you can do so consistently.

Those are separate things. What I'm aiming at is one thing, doing what I want to the CB to get it there is something else.

I have a few friends that can draw really well and I'm a little jealous of that. The flip side is that I can beat them regularly while giving up a spot. I haven't got a very good/consistent stroke, but my aiming and creativity is much better than theirs. I've worked a lot to find ways around problems, but some of those 'fixes' come with problems of their own(like trying to spin a ball off the rail, since my draw isn't that good, can result in overspinning the OB).

And to revisit that 'aiming and stroke go together' thing.. in the overall shot picture, sure. They're still individual things. If I find a new player that has a great stroke, he still needs to understand the effects of different hits on his aiming points. The hit on the CB won't always change the path of the CB or OB, but when it does they will need to know how to adjust. So, somebody can have a good stroke without knowing what all it does. Until that stroke is consistent from shot to shot, that makes the stroke-aim connection even more iffy.

 

[naji]

You still aren't accepting what the rest of the pool world knows and accepts. The stroke is the movement of the cue. Nothing more. The stroke is not aiming, it is not pocketing a ball, it not position play. The stroke is nothing more than delivering the cue to a specific part on the cb at a constant or accelerating speed. You insisting that the stroke is the entire shot does not make it so. Somewhere along the line you accepted what you believe, and even with facts from so many you still won't let it go and change your thinking to what the rest of the world believes. All the books out there, you will not find a one that says what you believe the stroke is. You aren't going to change the "textbooks", so why not just learn what they teach??

Ok Neil and PJ, i will go with the flow if the definition changes to:
Stroke Nothing more than delivering the cue to a specific part on the cb at a constant or accelerating speed (like you said it) i like to add to send CB to known expected path and at known CB conditions at moment of contact of OB or rail
If you and PJ agree i will be happy. Thanks.

 

[Scott Lee]

See, Mike, the problem is not with experienced high level players like you and your Camel Tour friend...it's with the masses on here that are being brainwashed by CJ. The reasoning is exceptionally clear...he wants to sell his dvds. Nothing wrong with that (but at least admit it publically...which he will never do), aside from the implication that owning them will "dramatically" increase your playing ability (that remains to be seen). Like Neil said, if CJ"s rhetoric helps you, great. But it is unlikely to help much with the tens of thousands of beginner and mid-level players...especially those with stroke issues.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Keep posting, CJ. Your thoughts are welcome as far as I'm concerned. I can't understand the outright rudeness some of these guys are sending your way. I can understand being skeptical and saying so, but why do they post every time you do? Make your point and quit being an OCD troll about every bit of info. Ask CJ for the 5 ball or let the discussion move on.

You've got a full stable of stalkers and they're all hitting the refresh button right now...hoping to get you riled up! Interrnet bullies who get braver the tamer your posts get. Fade their comments.

One of my best friends played on the Camel tour and has been following these threads. He said you're crazy trying to help these people. He won't even register because of all the know it alls. Sheesh! :ignore:

As far as my game and your advice about how to improve...I ran a 131 back in the 80's and ran a dozen or more centuries when I played straights. I consider myself an open level player. When I played regularly I couldn't get a spot from many pros for the cash. So please stop trying to instruct me on what I need to learn about the game. Maybe I might know a little something

 

[Slasher]

Here's something to consider.

I took six months off this year, never touched the cue.
Started back a couple of weeks ago with short 1/2 to 1 hr practice sessions doing routines and things are coming along nicely.

The point you ask?
I rebuilt my stroke, grip stance etc a few years back and prior to that when I had taken time off it took me ages to get it back, especially long balls.
I think the key has been the simplifying and purer alignment of the system.
To me the less moving parts and variables the better and this is a common theme among great players.

 

[nobcitypool]

I don't believe anybody is trying to discredit him personally. This all started as a friendly debate over the stroke and evolved into subjects as deep as physics. I'm sorry that you feel, for some reason, that because CJ was a professional at one point that he is beyond reproach and his postings should simply be taken as gospel without challenge.

If you check the posts carefully, what you likely consider discrediting occurred once he started the cut and paste fest from his google efforts with an attempt to pass this off as his own knowledge. This included physics subjects and then the big thing with 4 circles that mentioned industry resources or something. Several of us called bullshit because that's clearly what it was, i.e., bullshit.

I'm not questioning that he somehow uses the wrist cock to his advantage when he is breaking and perhaps on power strokes. I seriously question this is something novice pool players should attempt to integrate into their own stroke but that's up to each individual.

It also seems like, when someone does call him out, CJ chooses to divert that point or question with some silly cut and paste from his google efforts. There's been several requests for him to prove his wrist cock thing with a video clip. Strange that he has all this Google capability but can't directly prove his own points.

I would think people would appreciate divergent opinions. I wish more people would post those opinions regardless of their perception of the popularity. Two good examples. I read all these glowing reviews of Lee Brett's DVD's and the SEE Aiming System. I invested based upon those opinions. I didn't read one opinion that had anything negative to them. I found the Lee Brett DVD like one of those movies with lots of stars where you keep watching thinking something good has to happen. It didn't. If Jerry Brieseth and Dr. Dave's VEPS were 10's, this DVD was a 4 at best IMHO. The SEE System was essentially crap IMHO and a lot of what's in there is stuff he dug up elsewhere, including Dr Dave's website, and compiled for download.

I realize opinions vary and I'm certainly not always right. But to think my opinion was 180 degrees out of phase with every other one I read on here doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps other people were embarrassed to admit they wasted their time and money. I think it is more that people saw other sycophants posting and feared being humiliated by people like yourself because someone was dissing their hero.

You are welcome to your opinion of CJ and everyone else. If you don't like some people's posts, do like English and put them on ignore. Or even easier, just ignore the posts. I am confident CJ's gargantuan ego is capable of handling these opposing opinions and can survive without your moral support.

You won't let the guy post without trying to discredit him. That's my point. I'd like to hear what he has to say because he's been to the top of the mountain. The people nipping at his legs don't have his experiences yet they tell him to put a sock in it.

Geno and Stan took too much heat. So why are we doing it to CJ, too?

As far as my game and your advice about how to improve...I ran a 131 back in the 80's and ran a dozen or more centuries when I played straights. I consider myself an open level player. When I played regularly I couldn't get a spot from many pros for the cash. So please stop trying to instruct me on what I need to learn about the game. Maybe I might know a little something. I don't need a hero, btw. That's for people who don't believe in themselves.

Best,
Mike

 

[Neil]

Ok Neil and PJ, i will go with the flow if the definition changes to:
Stroke Nothing more than delivering the cue to a specific part on the cb at a constant or accelerating speed (like you said it) i like to add to send CB to known expected path and at known CB conditions at moment of contact of OB or rail
If you and PJ agree i will be happy. Thanks.

The part you put in red is called aiming, not stroke. You have alignment or stance, aiming, and stroke. what happens after contact is the result of aiming and stroke combined, that is, the result of where you hit the cb and at what speed(stroke) and what direction the cue was pointed (aiming).

 

[Neil]

Mike, ditto what Scott and nobcitypool said. I understand you looking for any "secrets" that the champs might have. Quite frankly, with the skills you have, the only "secret" for you is between your ears. THAT is what will either allow you to advance, or hold you back. If you ran 130, you have every physical skill you need to run more.

 

[Neil]

I don't believe anybody is trying to discredit him personally. This all started as a friendly debate over the stroke and evolved into subjects as deep as physics. I'm sorry that you feel, for some reason, that because CJ was a professional at one point that he is beyond reproach and his postings should simply be taken as gospel without challenge.

If you check the posts carefully, what you likely consider discrediting occurred once he started the cut and paste fest from his google efforts with an attempt to pass this off as his own knowledge. This included physics subjects and then the big thing with 4 circles that mentioned industry resources or something. Several of us called bullshit because that's clearly what it was, i.e., bullshit.

I'm not questioning that he somehow uses the wrist cock to his advantage when he is breaking and perhaps on power strokes. I seriously question this is something novice pool players should attempt to integrate into their own stroke but that's up to each individual.

It also seems like, when someone does call him out, CJ chooses to divert that point or question with some silly cut and paste from his google efforts. There's been several requests for him to prove his wrist cock thing with a video clip. Strange that he has all this Google capability but can't directly prove his own points.

I would think people would appreciate divergent opinions. I wish more people would post those opinions regardless of their perception of the popularity. Two good examples. I read all these glowing reviews of Lee Brett's DVD's and the SEE Aiming System. I invested based upon those opinions. I didn't read one opinion that had anything negative to them. I found the Lee Brett DVD like one of those movies with lots of stars where you keep watching thinking something good has to happen. It didn't. If Jerry Brieseth and Dr. Dave's VEPS were 10's, this DVD was a 4 at best IMHO. The SEE System was essentially crap IMHO and a lot of what's in there is stuff he dug up elsewhere, including Dr Dave's website, and compiled for download.

I realize opinions vary and I'm certainly not always right. But to think my opinion was 180 degrees out of phase with every other one I read on here doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps other people were embarrassed to admit they wasted their time and money. I think it is more that people saw other sycophants posting and feared being humiliated by people like yourself because someone was dissing their hero.

You are welcome to your opinion of CJ and everyone else. If you don't like some people's posts, do like English and put them on ignore. Or even easier, just ignore the posts. I am confident CJ's gargantuan ego is capable of handling these opposing opinions and can survive without your moral support.

The SEE system isn''t for everybody. While I used it enough to verify that it does indeed work, I prefer the method I currently use. The rest of his DVD I thought was informative. Not too sure some of that material is on Dr. Daves site or not, or even someone elses DVD's. Wouldn't surprise me if it is. But, that does not mean he just plagiarized someone elses material. I have "invented" systems that I had never seen anywhere before, yet others have found out the same thing I did before I did. There is very little "new" material out there anymore. But that doesn't mean it was copied per say. If one can get something new to them off a DVD that works for them, then they have the price of the DVD right there.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Keep posting, CJ. Your thoughts are welcome as far as I'm concerned. I can't understand the outright rudeness some of these guys are sending your way. I can understand being skeptical and saying so, but why do they post every time you do? Make your point and quit being an OCD troll about every bit of info. Ask CJ for the 5 ball or let the discussion move on.

You've got a full stable of stalkers and they're all hitting the refresh button right now...hoping to get you riled up! Interrnet bullies who get braver the tamer your posts get. Fade their comments.

One of my best friends played on the Camel tour and has been following these threads. He said you're crazy trying to help these people. He won't even register because of all the know it alls. Sheesh! :ignore:

Best,
Mike

Well said Mike.

For me, the word 'Vigilantes' come to mind or maybe 'Grumpy Old Men'.

Maybe this post will divert some of their ill will attention away fom CJ.

I'm fairly sure that it will, because they simply can not help themselves.

They can not see the forrest because they are only looking at the tree in their own back yard at the forrest's edge. They are 'short sighted'. They can only see inside their own little world where their own vested interest resides.

I wish every post had a tally where the AZB general public could give each post a thumbs up or down. Maybe that type of public opinion polling could convince them of their inappropriate behavior.

It's not what one says, but how one says it, that becomes offensive.

Best Regards to you, Mike.

 

[naji]

The part you put in red is called aiming, not stroke. You have alignment or stance, aiming, and stroke. what happens after contact is the result of aiming and stroke combined, that is, the result of where you hit the cb and at what speed(stroke) and what direction the cue was pointed (aiming).

Thanks again, maybe my biggest issue is the CB often time heads in a direction different than the cue direction for some hits. I apologize for stressing the point, of not separating aiming and stroke. I will accept it as is for now. Thanks for taking the time to respond, and all.

 

[Slasher]

Well said Mike.

For me, the word 'Vigilantes' come to mind or maybe 'Grumpy Old Men'.

Maybe this post will divert some of their ill will attention away fom CJ.

I'm fairly sure that it will, because they simply can not help themselves.

They can not see the forrest because they are only looking at the tree in their own back yard at the forrest's edge. They are 'short sighted'. They can only see inside their own little world where their own vested interest resides.

I wish every post had a tally where the AZB general public could give each post a thumbs up or down. Maybe that type of public opinion polling could convince them of their inappropriate behavior.

It's not what one says, but how one says it, that becomes offensive.

Best Regards to you, Mike.

So you would like everyone on here to shut up and conform to popular opinion if that were the consensus.
Sorry bud, aint gonna happen, just because it's popular don't mean it's right.

 

[Slasher]

Thanks again, maybe my biggest issue is the CB often time heads in a direction different than the cue direction for some hits. I apologize for stressing the point, of not separating aiming and stroke. I will accept it as is for now. Thanks for taking the time to respond, and all.

This sounds serious, can you post a video of you shooting if your comfortable with that.