WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

I don't have anything against unconventional descriptions, especially if they resonate with players in a helpful way. But "unconventional" can also be factually incorrect, which can be "bad" for those who get more from conventional descriptions - lots more people read here than those who love CJ's style of teaching, and they deserve some consideration (and translation) too.

And, by the way, CJ brings some of the "opposition" on himself with his "I'm a pro with elite knowledge and anybody who doesn't get it is doomed to mediocrity" arrogance. He'd have more of my respect if he didn't think so much of himself and his "special" techniques.

pj
chgo

I think some of that is fair, certainly.

Also fair would be the observation that CJ did not display much of that attitude here when he first began posting, only after the tone got nasty. Not justifying it, but it isn't surprising to me, either, given his past success and the tenor of how many folks responded to him here.

All of you have so much to offer, and all of you have been very helpful to me specifically. While I am a mere neophyte in pool, I have had some measure of success in trying to be objective and diplomatic within groups of people with varying and diverse opinions, so I try to present that here. Not to call anyone out, but rather to try to foster searches for common ground.
 
I don't have anything against unconventional descriptions, especially if they resonate with players in a helpful way. But "unconventional" can also be factually incorrect, which can be "bad" for those who get more from conventional descriptions - lots more people read here than those who love CJ's style of teaching, and they deserve some consideration (and translation) too.

And, by the way, CJ brings some of the "opposition" on himself with his "I'm a pro with elite knowledge and anybody who doesn't get it is doomed to mediocrity" arrogance. He'd have more of my respect if he didn't think so much of himself and his "special" techniques.

pj
chgo

PJ, can you summarize the points CJ made in this thread that you feel are factually incorrect?
 
I wasn't gonna "go there", but I can't help myself....

Another factor to consider in all this drama is the faction of very knowledgeable and (usually) helpful veterans of this forum sometimes seem to become very protective of "their turf".

I understand that most of these subjects have been discussed before, and that there is probably very little that is truly "new". But just because some of you folks have been discussing this back to the RSB days, well.... I wasn't around pool then. I expect that many, many more of us haven't been discussing pool theories and techniques on a forum for an extended period of time, either. So when someone starts talking about something here and you've discussed it before, doesn't mean that it isn't fresh and new to a bunch of people.

Similarly, just because someone phrases things differently than you folks have been doing here for so long, doesn't mean the message is bad. And yes, while it could be less confusing if most people used the same terminology, it doesn't have to be a flash point.

Having different ways to describe the same thing is not bad, either. While the specific example escapes me at the moment, something CJ was referencing clicked for me, where it hadnt before, simply because it was described differently.

I think that debate is healthy. I don't think that sniping, and continuously nit picking points of discussion is helpful at all, and takes away from the message.

Tap! Tap! Tap! Well said, Bruce.
 
Yeah, but the way I look at it, part of any arrogance from a top shelf professional comes from the fact that they can execute at a high level.
They have every right to be swollen headed about that IMO.

I mean, people can break it down to scientific terms and drawings all they want, but sometimes, watching a professional execute what they are talking about, goes way further in explaining things, then any scientific explanation can.

That is not to say that the science is wrong.
But I know more pool players that learned better and quicker, with a brief pool playeresque type of explanation and a high level demonstration of certain techniques, then ever learned from scientific explanation alone.
And who executes and demonstrates top shelf techniques the best?
High caliber players.
Do they always know how to explain things scientifically? No.

Needless to say, some people might prefer a well executed shot with a laymans terms explanation, some people may prefer a scientific dissertation.
Regardless, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the majority of people who explain things scientifically on these forums, won't even come close to executing at the level that CJ can.
And for some, learning from someone who executes at a high level, is worth way more then just scientific explanation alone. Or scientific explanation with a mediocre execution.

I often wonder what would happen if your paired up the explanations given in these forums, with the individual poster, demonstrating the techniques.

Reminds me of a story I heard about a lesson from a "great" instructor, where he was talking about how easy it was to make combos with his system, where he proceeded to miss like 6 easy combos in a row.:rolleyes:

<---doesn't believe that normal physics applies on the pool table, but rather, quantum mechanics.
 
An answer to all my friends...LOL. That's not all...I've been using a similar technique to CJ's for a year or two. I like to use it when there isn't enough room for natural roll to happen from a stun or drag draw shot. When the balls are close is the best time to use it. Doesn't take much speed or power.

I slightly elevate the cue to try to get more of the tip on the cue ball. Instead of the bottom of the tip for top spin which deflects away faster than cueing directly into the mass of the cue ball. I stroke through the cue ball and bring my tip up as I stroke. The difference is that I cue barely a half tip above center, if that. I could be lower, I never checked it.

I watched a lot of Efren videos where he would cue at center cue ball and follow the cue ball quickly with the spin taking affect rapidly. Larry Nevel is a master at this type of stroke. Or maybe I'm hallucinating about Efren or Larry's stroke.

Btw Neil, your comments about nut hugging are kind of creepy, ok? A world champ is giving out info. If you don't like it, don't read it. Nobody designated you to save the readers of this forum from another perspective. JoeW is right.

The egos and reps in here won't get smashed if another source of info comes along. Unless of course everything is known already about pool. Then the debate can end here, today, about everything pool related. No need to go on. What's the next frontier? Darts? Foosball?

Go ahead, play the science card. You're telling me about science in one sentence, and then not wanting to investigate the science behind something in the next sentence; just dismiss it because you don't agree with layman's terms. Comfy in your loft?

Go ahead, CJ. I can take whatever you can send my way. And don't worry...I won't blast you if I don't agree. I have an open mind. I just move the discussion into another direction and make lemonade. :cool:

Best,
Mike
 
After 40 pages of post this is now a "common technique" that everyone knows about like all the others? Did you guys ever think it is the pro's that know from trial and error and info exchanged between themselves on what "common techniques" are valuable and which ones are not and that is why they are pro's and you are not?


I believe the conversation has migrated to and fro over those 40+ pages and covered several topics -- I mean, didn't we start out talking about wrists?

As to your second point, pros are pros because they have spent a significant portion of their lives hitting round balls on a cloth covered surface into holes with a wooden stick that has a piece of leather at the end of it.

It doesn't make them Nobel Prize winners in physics.

Lou Figueroa
 
I am a new guy that started playing pool only a couple of years ago. I don't understand a lot of technical "pool" stuff that is being discussed here, but everything that I tried from whatever CJ Wiley offered to try, worked for me and worked great.
Yesterday after reading how to hit the ball with the top of the cue, I went to a pool room and tried it(combined with his foot placement, touch of inside and hammer wrist action)
I haven't missed a ball and ran a rack like it was nothing. Then I started practicing my favorite practice shot - long straight in stop shot where the ob is in the middle of the table and the cb is right in the middle of the corner pocket, just far enough from falling in. I couldn't believe myself. Normally I make 4-5, then miss, then do another 6. 7. sometimes 2-3, then miss again.
Yesterday I made 87 in a row without missing, until I had to leave. And I knew that if I stayed that number would be way passed 100- that's how confident I was.
So, obviously, the stuff that CJ is talking about works!!!
I tried different approaches that I learned from the books, videos on that long stop shot before and in last two years my best run of that shot was no more than 10 in a row. Whatever I learned from CJ's posts boosted my shotmaking way up!!!
 
From an epistemological perspective there are only a few ways of coming to “know” some thing. Two of the primary ones are Art and Science.

There is no higher “truth” about the nature of woman than the Mona Lisa. One person's expression about the nature of woman. That little smile says it all. – Sure big guy you have all the answers, but we all know who is really in charge.

So there is truth in art or one person's statement of the truth.

When you think you have all the answers stop and think about Mona for a minute. Could you come anywhere near as close to stating the “truth” about women.

Other artists make their statements in other ways.
 
I believe the conversation has migrated to and fro over those 40+ pages and covered several topics -- I mean, didn't we start out talking about wrists?

As to your second point, pros are pros because they have spent a significant portion of their lives hitting round balls on a cloth covered surface into holes with a wooden stick that has a piece of leather at the end of it.

It doesn't make them Nobel Prize winners in physics.

Lou Figueroa



I see it says something about "wrist" in the title :grin: i started paying a bit of attention with the top of the tip stuff. Pj asked me about what technique i was talking about, I now have no clue how many techniques are being discussed now, i couldn't answer him. :confused:
 
Keep it up guys and you will be able to drive away another person who could contribute much to the board.

Tolerance would go a long way here. If you don’t like some one’s idea, teaching methods or whatever, leave them alone and go your own way to create your own following if that is what you seek.

The truth speaks for itself and when people try different methods they will quickly learn the truth of what helps them play better.

Taking on some role of arbiter, rule enforcer or pretending to be the person with the only or the right answers is divisive and arrogant.

I think that what is being done to CJ is very unfortunate. I cringe when I see a person with good intent attempting to help and having to read the ugly comments some of you are making. I know that I am much less likely to be around the board anymore because of this sad state of affairs. In fact it is CJ’s attempts to be helpful that bring me back to this thread. The ugly stuff by intolerant and rigid people drives me away.

You know sometimes you have to wade through a lot of useless stuff to get to one nugget of gold. And it is often worthwhile.

Some people have more difficulty than others expressing an idea or a concept that is subtle and yet it is often worthwhile to struggle with their thought patterns to learn a little more than you knew before.


For better or worse that's not what happens on a discussion forum. And when someone throws hamburger on the table and says it's filet mignon they should get called on it and I don't care if it's Ferran Adria. We are here to talk about pool and that's what's happening -- if everyone said, "Oh, yea, I disagree with that" and then walked away, this board would shrivel up in a week.

Pool is part art and it is part science and some folks like to delve into the tiny little parts of the game and nits are going to get picked and die. People have opinions and, generally speaking, the people that post here like and can eloquently express them and they ain't always (never) going to be in sync. People here are passionate about the game and will -- oh my God -- disagree. And by-and-large it's a male population here and -- surprise -- there's a little testosterone in the room. We are not a Sunday afternoon knitting club of old ladies. So, IMO, if you don't like it or can't stomach it, you shouldn't be here in the first place.

Last time I checked no one came here to sing kumbaya.

Lou Figueroa
 
Yeah, but the way I look at it, part of any arrogance from a top shelf professional comes from the fact that they can execute at a high level.
They have every right to be swollen headed about that IMO.

I mean, people can break it down to scientific terms and drawings all they want, but sometimes, watching a professional execute what they are talking about, goes way further in explaining things, then any scientific explanation can.

That is not to say that the science is wrong.
But I know more pool players that learned better and quicker, with a brief pool playeresque type of explanation and a high level demonstration of certain techniques, then ever learned from scientific explanation alone.
And who executes and demonstrates top shelf techniques the best?
High caliber players.
Do they always know how to explain things scientifically? No.

Needless to say, some people might prefer a well executed shot with a laymans terms explanation, some people may prefer a scientific dissertation.
Regardless, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the majority of people who explain things scientifically on these forums, won't even come close to executing at the level that CJ can.
And for some, learning from someone who executes at a high level, is worth way more then just scientific explanation alone. Or scientific explanation with a mediocre execution.

I often wonder what would happen if your paired up the explanations given in these forums, with the individual poster, demonstrating the techniques.

Reminds me of a story I heard about a lesson from a "great" instructor, where he was talking about how easy it was to make combos with his system, where he proceeded to miss like 6 easy combos in a row.:rolleyes:

<---doesn't believe that normal physics applies on the pool table, but rather, quantum mechanics.

You said it better than how I was contemplating saying it. Glad I waited. 3 Taps! for you.

I guess that's why you are a Superstar!:wink:
 
I am a new guy that started playing pool only a couple of years ago. I don't understand a lot of technical "pool" stuff that is being discussed here, but everything that I tried from whatever CJ Wiley offered to try, worked for me and worked great.
Yesterday after reading how to hit the ball with the top of the cue, I went to a pool room and tried it(combined with his foot placement, touch of inside and hammer wrist action)
I haven't missed a ball and ran a rack like it was nothing. Then I started practicing my favorite practice shot - long straight in stop shot where the ob is in the middle of the table and the cb is right in the middle of the corner pocket, just far enough from falling in. I couldn't believe myself. Normally I make 4-5, then miss, then do another 6. 7. sometimes 2-3, then miss again.
Yesterday I made 87 in a row without missing, until I had to leave. And I knew that if I stayed that number would be way passed 100- that's how confident I was.
So, obviously, the stuff that CJ is talking about works!!!
I tried different approaches that I learned from the books, videos on that long stop shot before and in last two years my best run of that shot was no more than 10 in a row. Whatever I learned from CJ's posts boosted my shotmaking way up!!!

Congratulations!:thumbup2: 87 in a row!

I've got to get to a table & work on my CJ techniques!
Best Regards,
 
From an epistemological perspective there are only a few ways of coming to “know” some thing. Two of the primary ones are Art and Science.

There is no higher “truth” about the nature of woman than the Mona Lisa. One person's expression about the nature of woman. That little smile says it all. – Sure big guy you have all the answers, but we all know who is really in charge.

So there is truth in art or one person's statement of the truth.

When you think you have all the answers stop and think about Mona for a minute. Could you come anywhere near as close to stating the “truth” about women.

Other artists make their statements in other ways.

Mr. Joe,

Regarding Mona Lisa.

Is she real...or just a cold and lonely, lovely work of art?

Best Regards,
 
..........

Btw Neil, your comments about nut hugging are kind of creepy, ok? A world champ is giving out info. If you don't like it, don't read it. Nobody designated you to save the readers of this forum from another perspective. JoeW is right.
..........

Best,
Mike

See Mike, this is exactly what I was talking to you about earlier. You don't actually READ things, you assume things according to your bias. I never said that, yet you want to condemn me for saying something I didn't even say. Sfleinlen said it, not me. And, if you don't like me helping others, don't read it yourself. And, no one said this is the CJ forum, where what he says is gospel, and no one is allowed to say anything contrary. If you don't like things discussed on a discussion forum, go talk to him on facebook.
 
My somewhat fuzzy (and perhaps non-intuitive) hypothesis: a powerful hit closer to (but not at) the center of the CB can result in more spin than the same speed hit further from the center of the CB, due to the multiplying effects of the distance from center.

Dr. Dave, have you done any experiments along these lines? I remember one of your experiments stated that max draw can be obtained with a hit slightly above the miscue limit, but I wonder if even more draw can be obtained with a sufficiently powerful stroke even closer to center ball. Or, perhaps follow works better with this technique since you're not fighting cloth friction as much with the forward roll as with the backwards roll.
Follow physics is very different from draw physics.

With draw, the CB loses backspin as the CB drags across the cloth on the way to the OB. The only way to get more draw action is to use more speed and/or hit the CB lower. Although, there are diminishing returns as you approach the miscue limit. With a power draw shot (with good draw action over a long distance), the optimal tip offset is not at the miscue limit, but a little bit higher (but still well below center). For more info, see:

The following video illustrates, describes, and demonstrates this effect:

Here's the image I posted earlier (from the normal roll and overspin resource page) that summarizes recommended tip positions for different types of shots:

tip_height_references.jpg

With a draw shot, added cue elevation generally results in less draw. For more info, see:
However, cue elevation is required for certain types of draw shots (see quick draw).

With follow shots, the CB naturally picks up topspin as it drags across the cloth. The following illustration posted by PJ many years ago illustrates the effect very well:

PJ_draw_drag.jpg

If there is enough distance between the CB and OB and/or if a shot is hit softly enough, it can have full follow effect regardless of how high or low you hit the CB, as long as the CB develops full roll before it reaches the OB.

Now, with force follow shots, where the CB is close to the OB and/or where fast speed is used, the only way to get maximum follow action is to hit the CB at or above the immediate-roll height. Although, as with draw, there are diminishing returns as you approach the miscue limit. For more info, see:

How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?” (BD, September, 2011)​

With follow shots, cue elevation doesn't have any negative effect on the amount of follow, but it can reduce accuracy significantly. Even if the tip is just a hair off center (left or right) the swerve resulting from the cue elevation will push the CB off line. For more info, see:

Regards,
Dave
 
From an epistemological perspective there are only a few ways of coming to “know” some thing. Two of the primary ones are Art and Science.

There is no higher “truth” about the nature of woman than the Mona Lisa. One person's expression about the nature of woman. That little smile says it all. – Sure big guy you have all the answers, but we all know who is really in charge.

So there is truth in art or one person's statement of the truth.

When you think you have all the answers stop and think about Mona for a minute. Could you come anywhere near as close to stating the “truth” about women.

Other artists make their statements in other ways.

Therein lies the difference between art and science. You, and I'm sure others, decide to see the Mona Lisa in that manner. Rest assured, however, if you asked 1,000 people their opinions, there would be lots of opinions that differ from your own.

On the other hand, the laws of Physics are the laws of Physics. You, me or CJ can "feel" what we wish but just because we feel it doesn't mean it is true if it defies those laws. CJ, the top 10 pool players ever to live and whomever could all say they've created a technique that that eliminates gravity. Even though that's impossible, they "feel" it and see some type of results that may even lead one to believe it is possible.

Facts are facts and are indisputable. This is true in science, court of law or logical arguments. CJ attempts to use tons of anecdotal evidence to support his statements and the fact that he is an all time great professional leads many people to believe him.

With all that said, this is all for fun anyway. Nobody dies if they trust one of CJ's techniques and it turns out to be flawed. I also agree that it is better for the site and for pool if he and other professionals would post here regardless of the validity of any/all of their statements. I think the debate, to a degree is good, it should simply refrain from getting personal.

Most every high performing professional that is near the top of their game, whether it is business, sports or whatever, have large egos. I think that may be an essential part of the person that largely contributes to them reaching that level. While I don't agree with a number of things said by CJ here, I do give him a great deal of credit for dealing with the people debating him in a reasonably courteous manner. I also really appreciate reading the posts by Scott Lee, Bob Jewitt, Dr Dave, Neil, Patrick, sfleinan and others who take a more factual approach.
 
PJ, can you summarize the points CJ made in this thread that you feel are factually incorrect?
You're tired of hearing it, but you don't know what was said? The thread is around here somewhere if you'd care to read it - I'll pass on reenacting it with you.

pj
chgo
 
Sometimes, the science is too literal.

For instance.
Dr. Dave has a spectacular image of the draw shot at various distances.
This really basically covers everything about the draw shot. So does his link to physics based advice.

But at the same time, i am compelled to point out something that a pool player might know, that doesn't seem to be explained in this image or in the link.

i.e., manipulation of the friction that works to slow down the ball and reduces spin over distance, by CHEATING.

How does one cheat for instance?

Example.
2 power draw shots identical starting points, identical distance to the object ball, identical impact speed on the cueball.
1st one is done with the person's best draw stroke.
2nd one is done with a semi jacked up draw stroke.

Which one draws the ball better?

Answer, the jacked up one.
Why you ask? Because when you strike the cueball at a semi jacked up position, you are causing it to jump, and therefore, for it's slightly airborne journey, it's bypassing that whole friction thing, and retaining MORE draw on the cueball as a result, so that when it impacts the object ball, it SNAPS back.
As a matter of fact, you can hit the slightly jacked up shot, SLOWER then the regular power draw stroke, and get more draw sometimes, because you are cheating friction. (BLASPHEMY!!!!!:eek:)

I'm positive that there could also be some application for shooting shots with an upwards follow stroke as well that might cause the cueball to leave the surface temporarily and cause some goofy effects. Who knows.

But the point is, how i just explained it will suffice.
I don't think any scientific explanation can explain it any better then i just did.
And plenty of pool players know what i just said, works.
Yet it isn't really covered in the scientific explanation for a power draw.
It's not in Dr. Dave's link at all. (and that does not mean that Dr Dave gives bad info)

But it just goes to show you, that despite the various legitimate scientific explanations for pool phenomena, sometimes, people miss something that is so obvious.
And sometimes, layman's terms aren't good at explaining a situation where one is "cheating" and skirting the physics rules, and i think this is where some of these threads really go haywire.

Cause it's easy to see what one is doing on the table when it's demonstrated.
It's a lot harder to see what someone is doing, when they are limited to a scientific explanations on paper or in forums, that assume that people aren't manipulating factors that they haven't accounted for.
 
Mr. Superstar,

Well stated. The physics does not change but you added a parameter to the equation.

I do not normally hit my draw shots by elevating my cue as I generally have no need to do so & have found that I, personally, can control them better without the elevation.

My lack of shooting 'jacked up' draw shots cost me a game just the other day as I had to 'jack up' and hit a little draw. I drew it too much straight into the side pocket for a scratch. My lack of thinking it through, that it would jump some, cost me the game. Sometimes we need a little reminded & I got mine at a price, but worth it. The game can be the teacher.

Best Regards,
 
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