WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

Pay Up Sucker said:
I basically only shoot high, center and low and move inside and outside when needed like CJ does.So after playing for 46 years you just now have realized hitting with out unnecessary english will raise your pocketing percentage? I know what the TOI does and how it works, Maybe some need three hours to understand it but i dont think i am one of them :) If someone other than Cj wants to put a video up of the technique i will also :)

ps: im guessing your an apa 6?
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I have not played APA in over 20 years but was never as low as a six(6).

However, I hear you & now know what school you come from. No wonder you would think CJ's method of using deflection would be difficult.
 
Pay Up Sucker said:
I basically only shoot high, center and low and move inside and outside when needed like CJ does.So after playing for 46 years you just now have realized hitting with out unnecessary english will raise your pocketing percentage? I know what the TOI does and how it works, Maybe some need three hours to understand it but i dont think i am one of them :) If someone other than Cj wants to put a video up of the technique i will also :)

ps: im guessing your an apa 6?
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Careful there dude or you'll end up on English's "ignore list". LMAO!
 
hit the cue ball "crisply" and the key thought I always have is "acceleration".

Pay Up Sucker said:
I'm guessing you have not read any posts i have made in the past in this thread? :) I am not understanding your point on why this technique will increase your potting on long shots, your being vague. A shot 5 diamonds away is easier to pot by deflecting it in than hitting a contact point? Too risky for me. Is that what this system is about in your opinion, raising your potting percentage? I think this system is more of a cue ball control technique that is situational for best results. I also only move off center cue ball when needed.
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Just remember, the deflection is minimal and the most important thing is keeping you from hitting the "wrong side of the Cue Ball." If you aim at center and hit it off by just a hair it can deflect enough to miss the center and you just have a "half ball" margin of error.

Using the TOI you can aim at the "undercut side," and throw it in the center of the pocket. When I'm playing by best I hit the center of the pocket consistenly, however, I only aim at the center on straight in shots. This doesn't make sense until you start seeing the pocket as a "zone," not just a "pocket".

The feedback I get from using a variety of "spins and deflections" is ambiguous. The "shot speed" has an impact on how much the cue ball moves from it's intended line with intentional or unintentional spin or deflection.

This is why the game "opens up," when you learn to cut down the amount of calculations you have to make on each shot. Mastering one type shot is essential in the process of achieving this consistency. To do this you must have a consistent target and, in pool that target is the Cue Ball.

To "throw" the balls the same every time you must use a consistent "stroke speed," and if you like to "slow roll" balls this is definately not going to work for you. To use the TOI method it's essential to hit the cue ball "crisply" and the key thought I always have is "acceleration".
 
hoping to put something together before I leave on Friday.

One Pocket John said:
CJ, you said that you was going to make a video this last weekend demonstrating TOI.

Did you have time?

John
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Not yet, and I'm wanting to asap....my Video person was doing another job and I can't get it strarted until tomorrow. With the Mosconi Cup coming up quick I don't have much time to prepare to leave Dallas for a week. I'm still hoping to put something together before I leave on Friday.

We're doing a Downloadable version of my new DVD 'Billiards Inside Secrets' right now and it's giving us some "issues". No big thing, just time consuming to get exactly right. I'm having to cut the video in 8 sections to make it download quicker and play more effeciently. Sounds like an "aiming system". LoL ;)
 
CJ Wiley said:
Just remember, the deflection is minimal and the most important thing is keeping you from hitting the "wrong side of the Cue Ball." If you aim at center and hit it off by just a hair it can deflect enough to miss the center and you just have a "half ball" margin of error.

Using the TOI you can aim at the "undercut side," and throw it in the center of the pocket. When I'm playing by best I hit the center of the pocket consistenly, however, I only aim at the center on straight in shots. This doesn't make sense until you start seeing the pocket as a "zone," not just a "pocket".

The feedback I get from using a variety of "spins and deflections" is ambiguous. The "shot speed" has an impact on how much the cue ball moves from it's intended line with intentional or unintentional spin or deflection.

This is why the game "opens up," when you learn to cut down the amount of calculations you have to make on each shot. Mastering one type shot is essential in the process of achieving this consistency. To do this you must have a consistent target and, in pool that target is the Cue Ball.

To "throw" the balls the same every time you must use a consistent "stroke speed," and if you like to "slow roll" balls this is definately not going to work for you. To use the TOI method it's essential to hit the cue ball "crisply" and the key thought I always have is "acceleration".
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This is the feeling i get, the cue ball is the target and i loose the feel/connection of the object ball and pocket. Its the feeling i get and i don't know how else to explain it other than its a feeling i get, you know what i mean CJ lol

I also totally understand the mastering one type of shot for consistency because i have that feeling shooting Stans Shuffetts system and it does that when you have mastered the system. I have basically 3 shots and in those 3 shots i have thousands of variations of the 3 shots.
 
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I had the advantage of seeing champion players do this technique

Pay Up Sucker said:
Finding the correct speed to deflect the ob and move the cb to where you want the cb to go aint an easy task, unless your Cj lol :)
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Actually it's much easier than trying to spin the ball into position. It's a totally different sensation to control the cue ball with the same speed every time. It makes the cue ball seem much "heavier," and holds the "shot line" much better.

The same principal holds true in golf and tennis, however, If you don't play those games the analogies won't mean much. As soon as I make this video on the TOI specifically it will be MUCH easier to talk about. I had the advantage of seeing champion players do this technique before I incorporated it and can understand that reading about it won't be the same.
 
I obviously don't suggest three would be better than one

ENGLISH! said:
I would tend to agree with you, but... In CJ's first video he advocates using more rails to get position. Now...that sounds like going three rails with english & he will if he has to change the angle off the rail from that of the TOI. That is one of his exceptions.

I did not have much trouble going north/south or east/west. My problem was trying to find the correct speed, too far, too short, again & again. I think that was because I was making sure to deflect the CB & not come up with a double cross.

My problem is when CJ says to 'always' use the TOI vs. spinning a ball in. My problem with that is you might have to go 3 rails with the TOI when a simple little spin shot gets you the same if not better shape.

It's hard for me to take him literally when he says 'always', but he has reaffirmed that a couple of times. I just can't see that & I probably wll not adopt 'always' into my play.

Regards,
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Just to be clear, I advocate more rails for more precise postition as Buddy Hall told me one time "one is better than none, two is better than one and three is better than two,"

I obviously don't suggest three would be better than one, the point is you can play position "ZONES" using more rails. This allows you to approach the next ball on the correct angle, rather than "crossing the table". It's all about playing maximum margin of error.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Just to be clear, I advocate more rails for more precise postition as Buddy Hall told me one time "one is better than none, two is better than one and three is better than two,"

I obviously don't suggest three would be better than one, the point is you can play position "ZONES" using more rails. This allows you to approach the next ball on the correct angle, rather than "crossing the table". It's all about playing maximum margin of error.
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CJ,

Thanks for the clarification. I'm heading out tommorrow for another 3 hour session with TOI. I wish I had not moved my table to my son's house after Katrini. This time my focus will be on postion, not making sure I deflect the CB. I'm going to try to find out just how 'softly' I can hit the CB & still get the deflection for the TOI to work properly.

Do you have any suggestions or additional insights that will help or speed up the process?

Thanks again & Go U.S.A.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
CJ,

Thanks for the clarification. I'm heading out tommorrow for another 3 hour session with TOI. I wish I had not moved my table to my son's house after Katrini. This time my focus will be on postion, not making sure I deflect the CB. I'm going to try to find out just how 'softly' I can hit the CB & still get the deflection for the TOI to work properly.

Do you have any suggestions or additional insights that will help or speed up the process?

Thanks again & Go U.S.A.
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I find that accelerating throught the stroke on softer shots doesn't necessarily mean a harder hit cue ball. The tendency when hitting softer shots for some people (not necessarily you) is to slow down the end of the stroke and eliminate speed off of the cue ball. This hurts the TOI cue ball deflection and changes the shot angles.

If I want to shoot a softer shot with a TOI, I make sure my forward stroke starts out slowly enough that I can continue through the cue ball and get the feeling of acceleration. It's a Jedi mind trick. It takes a little thought to think like this, but it pays off with the TOI.

I can almost slow roll balls with a TOI doing this. I've experimented with it and gotten used to the deflection at different speeds. Also, the swerve can be a factor on longer soft draw shots depending on each shooter's cue elevation.

Let's see what CJ says about all this.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
I find that accelerating throught the stroke on softer shots doesn't necessarily mean a harder hit cue ball. The tendency when hitting softer shots for some people (not necessarily you) is to slow down the end of the stroke and eliminate speed off of the cue ball. This hurts the TOI cue ball deflection and changes the shot angles.

If I want to shoot a softer shot with a TOI, I make sure my forward stroke starts out slowly enough that I can continue through the cue ball and get the feeling of acceleration. It's a Jedi mind trick. It takes a little thought to think like this, but it pays off with the TOI.

I can almost slow roll balls with a TOI doing this. I've experimented with it and gotten used to the deflection at different speeds. Also, the swerve can be a factor on longer soft draw shots depending on each shooter's cue elevation.

Let's see what CJ says about all this.

Best,
Mike
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Hi Mike,

Thanks. Would you relate what you say to a swipe stroke? I don't mean in the cue direction. I just mean in the tempo. If not, is there a 'normal' type stroke that is exemplary of what you are describing.

Best, right back at you,
 
Mikjary:
I find that accelerating throught the stroke on softer shots doesn't necessarily mean a harder hit cue ball. The tendency when hitting softer shots for some people (not necessarily you) is to slow down the end of the stroke and eliminate speed off of the cue ball. This hurts the TOI cue ball deflection and changes the shot angles.
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A detail: if you hit the cue ball at the same speed either way, the amount of deflection is the same whether the cue is accelerating or decelerating. Accelerating might make your cue speed more predictable, but it doesn't change the effect on the cue ball unless the speed at contact is different.

pj
chgo
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Hi Mike,

Thanks. Would you relate what you say to a swipe stroke? I don't mean in the cue direction. I just mean in the tempo. If not, is there a 'normal' type stroke that is exemplary of what you are describing.

Best, right back at you,
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No swipe stroke. I make sure I start my forward stroke at a controlled level and continue through the cue ball with the idea of accelerating. On the softer shots, if I start out with too much speed, I have to let off of the stroke at contact with the cue ball. That's bad for a TOI.

I slowly start my forward stroke and feel like I'm accelerating at cue ball contact. In reality I'm just shooting one continuous speed through the entire shot.

I wondered how CJ shot soft shots with such accuracy and speed control in the videos. He appears to firm the shots, but the cue ball moves slowly. That's what I do. Just not as good as CJ does. cool0037.gif

Best,
Mike
 
Patrick Johnson said:
A detail: if you hit the cue ball at the same speed either way, the amount of deflection is the same whether the cue is accelerating or decelerating. Accelerating might make your cue speed more predictable, but it doesn't change the effect on the cue ball unless the speed at contact is different.

pj
chgo
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Yes, thank you for that. The speed is the heart of the matter.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
No swipe stroke. I make sure I start my forward stroke at a controlled level and continue through the cue ball with the idea of accelerating. On the softer shots, if I start out with too much speed, I have to let off of the stroke at contact with the cue ball. That's bad for a TOI.

I slowly start my forward stroke and feel like I'm accelerating at cue ball contact. In reality I'm just shooting one continuous speed through the entire shot.

I wondered how CJ shot soft shots with such accuracy and speed control in the videos. He appears to firm the shots, but the cue ball moves slowly. That's what I do. Just not as good as CJ does. View attachment 250630

Best,
Mike
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Thanks again Mike. I'm heading out to work on it tommorrow so I'm hoping for that Ah Ahh moment regarding the position speed thing.

Maybe a more compact stoke will get me the feelling.

Absolute Best,:wink:
 
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